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Meet the New Boss the Same as the Old Boss, the Tragic Outcome of Egypt’s Revolution

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posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 



Ultimately power just ends up right back in the hidden hands, we never really seem to rid ourselves of.


There is some new blood that comes onto the scene but the mass media works overtime to vilify them and dig up or make up every piece of dirt they can on the person, and the same people that are screaming for change buy into it, people are delusional, you can't reach them, they fall for the hype.





That's one side to it, but what happens when the mass media is not villifying them? Is it because they have sold out to the same corporate paymasters that control the mass media?

I would say it is, and yes you are right, it's difficult to reach the masses because they do get caught up in the hype and the emotion and the momentum of the movement and direction of the herd and the activity.

Yet more and more people are in fact reaching the level of awareness where they aren't going to bake a cake and throw a party just because everyone else seems to be and the media and the politicians are screaming "Great News"!

So yeah the masses are slowly being reached, through a independent process of communication, which in part is what this thread is all about.

Put the cake on hold, put the party horns away, slow down, stop and think, take a good look around, and think some more.

Resist the temptation of the feel good moment, and the easy way out.

Change will come, and it will come faster if we all get involved towards that end.

Thanks.




posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 






Long and short of it, is the Western Powers backed Mubarak for decades


You have to question why now, after thirty years, I have my own theory, but I wont post it I prefer to watch.



In part I believe it's because at 82 years of age he has become to old, with too many health problems, to cling to power much longer, and if he simply died in office or resigned in a free and fair open political process, there is no telling who would end up in power.

So you agitate the people, throw some money around, provide some logistical support and training, and in essence trick the people into changing the regime to someone who will just continue it along the way it was, with no elections or actual orderly transfer.

That's what I see as happening, what do you see as happening?



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


The Governments of the West and their allies would never allow just any old outcome - true democracy, Islamic government, anarchosyndicalism, whatever. They clearly allowed Mubarak to hang on until a suitable solution was in place; this solution would meet Israeli needs, US needs and, to a lesser extent, European needs.

Once that system was in place, and the succession planned, Mubarak could step down. The talk of twitter and similar sites having influence, the talk of popular uprising; this is window dressing. The first thing the Egyptian military dictatorship has said is that they will stick to all of the previously agreed treaties and agreements. This is not so much a conspiracy of power as the continuation of global power structures and their domination of the globe.

Everything is as it was, and always will be.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by anarchosyndicalist
 


I tend to very much agree with you friend.

So how do we get the average ordinary person to see that and come to that realization, assuming that the people really do want real change?

Any thoughts?



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Sure that makes sense considering you aren't a Muslim and don't live there anywhere.

But what about if you are a Muslim and live there.

If democracy is all about allowing the majority establish how they really wish to live and be governed, where is democracy served when you or I can dictate or imagine we should be able to dictate how other people, of other faiths, in other cultures, in other countries should live just because it's how we would prefer to live?

I would contend it is that desire and propensity to do that, that allows too many people to assume and likely falsely that the people in those nations are then going to try to determine how we live in ours.

Numerically, militarily they really have no chance to do that.


But….. a big “but” here…….. Just because the majority is Muslim, does not mean that everyone is Muslim.

You know what position Islamic rule puts non Muslims in.

You are basically stating that it is OK for the minority to be repressed, controlled, and killed indiscriminately, as long as the majority agree to it.

Then what problem did we have with Hitler? The majority voted for him. So the jews got the short end of the stick, but they were not a sizable voting block, so it’s perfectly OK.

The majority of the US is Christian. Can we install rules that dictate that everyone that doesn’t practice Christianity is a second class citizen, that can be killed if he is caught trying to covert a true Christian.

Heck NO!!!!!!!!!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That statement bares no conditions on country or nationality.
I stand for the rights of the minority in their country just as much as I stand for the rights of the minority in this country

When a party, religion, or organization goes past a certain point when it comes to the treatment of people outside their “group” then they forfeit the right to rule. No mater how big of a majority they have.

And when the stated goal of the organization is a world caliphate…. Considering the fact that I am also stuck on this world…….. I have as much right to speak as anyone else!!!!!!!



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 11:33 AM
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I am going to post this here,

Mubarak slammed U.S. in phone call with Israeli MK before resignation
Radical Islam will be result of U.S. push for democracy, Mubarak told Israel's Ben-Eliezer during a phone call on Thursday.
www.haaretz.com...




"He gave me a lesson in democracy and said: 'We see the democracy the United States spearheaded in Iran and with Hamas, in Gaza, and that's the fate of the Middle East,'" Ben-Eliezer said.

"'They may be talking about democracy but they don't know what they're talking about and the result will be extremism and radical Islam,'" he quoted Mubarak as saying.


"'They may be talking about democracy but they don't know what they're talking about and the result will be extremism and radical Islam,'" he quoted Mubarak as saying.

U.S. support for pro-democracy elements in Iran has not led to regime change in the Islamic Republic, and Hamas, a group Washington considers to be a terrorist organization, won a 2006 Palestinian election promoted by the United States.

Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 after a coalition government it formed with Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas collapsed in a power struggle.

Ben-Eliezer said Mubarak expanded in the telephone call on "what he expects will happen in the Middle East after his fall".

"He contended the snowball (of civil unrest) won't stop in Egypt and it wouldn't skip any Arab country in the Middle East and in the Gulf.

"He said 'I won't be surprised if in the future you see more extremism and radical Islam and more disturbances -- dramatic changes and upheavals," Ben-Eliezer added.


www.cnn.com...


"The armed forces council calls on the people to cooperate with the policemen," Lt. Gen. Sami Anan said on state television. "We ask our policemen to adhere to their slogan: "Police is at the people's service."


and Obama plans to strengthen UN
www.politico.com...
edit on 112828p://bSaturday2011 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


You really are kind of missing the whole point. Yes democracy does repress the minority, and no, there is no system of government that operates like Burger King where you can have it your way.

No Christians can't impose Christian Law here in the United States but it should be noted that Cannonical and Talmudic Law are already a big part of the United States Codes as well.

However that has never stopped some Christians from wanting to, and guess what if they ever gain a true majority they likely will be able too.

The system we have created through a democratic process (the Constitutional Convention) took place hundreds of years ago and though many are unhappy with it, there aren't any real mechanisms to radically alter or change it.

That's our system of representative democracy and the key word is 'our' system. Each democratic system works somewhat differently though, as you move from democracy to democracy because of the religions and cultures involved.

Israel's democratic process does not ressemble our own, and their majority does not ressemble our own, any more so than Germany's does.

Yet democracy is about a majority determining how they want to live and what systems they are going to live by, and yes that does lead to some being repressed.

Whether you realize it or not, you are simply saying that the needs of the few should out weigh the needs of the many.

That's not how democracy is meant to function and our propensity to want to do that through gunboat foreign policy fueled by the military industrial complex mostly with the primary support coming from religious elements within our own nation, has created a huge problem not just for the Middle East but how America is seen by Middle Easterners.

Practice what you preach, if democracy is letting the MAJORITY of the people decide how to GOVERN themselves, then yes, you have to step back, and let that happen and then try to work out an aliance for the sake of trade.

Whether the law doesn't favor you because smoking a joint gets you five years in prison, or gets you stoned by phsyical ones for committing adultry, laws everywhere don't often work out for the innocent law breaker following their desire to enjoy life and be free.

That's the nature of the beast, it's six and one half dozen of another.

Don't like the Marijuana laws in the United States, well I suggest moving to Amsterdam.

Don't like the adultery laws in the Muslim style Theocracies well I suggest moving to Amsterdam.

Pretty much I suggest moving to Amsterdam period, but that's besides the point.

Ours is by no means the freest or most progressive society or even the most sensible, it just happens to have the most formidible military and a citizenry when effected by religious xenophobia all to willing to impose a might make right systsem through military force for the sake of their own religious sensibilities and fears, that simply is exploited by the banks, the military industrial complex, and the oil companies who ultimately are the ones who not only profit through the conflicts these fears, and prejudices create, but in reality the only ones who profit from it.

So yeah, if you aren't prepared to let other people in other countries develop their own systems and arrive at them through majorities then you are arguing for dictatorial powers, and many of us feel our own government has far too many of those already as it represses a minority in our nation.

Yeah you can imagine that our system is the best on the block simply by comparing it to worse systems but ours is far from ideal too.

Is there an ideal form of government? Not one that is going to work for 10's of millions and 100's of millions and billions of people simotaneously and alike.

The tribal system was much better when it comes to developing governing styles that really work for a true like minded group of people.

The Powers that Be all but stamped that out, because yes, they do very much want a world where they can dictate how we all live, and yeah it sure helps them along that line when you want to dictate how the people in tunisia live simply because you wouldn't want to live that way yourself or fear the unknown variables in it.

Plenty to fear in our own Government from the Patriot Act, FISA Act and TSA and the rising police state.

One of our big problems is the distraction of imagining for the sake of the International Corporate Elite that what goes on in other nations pertaining to how they want to live is worthy of more focus, money and effort than correcting our own out of ballance and out of control systems.

I see your brand of thinking as a trap that deminishes us all when you fall for the emotional bait, mostly along the lines of fear and anger to fall into it.

It's nothing but a distraction, it's nothing but a mechanism to convince the people here that by comparison we are so much better off with a system that is not ideal and not good for the welfare of far too many people in this nation.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 





I am going to post this here,

Mubarak slammed U.S. in phone call with Israeli MK before resignation
Radical Islam will be result of U.S. push for democracy, Mubarak told Israel's Ben-Eliezer during a phone call on Thursday.
www.haaretz.com...



So in other words the "Muslim Boogie Man Card" even though it's a Military Dictatorship that has siezed power is your concern, in that usual manipulation of religious fears that the religious minded are prone to fall for, when extolled to seek out authoritarian regimes and brute force remedies?

Meanwhile you ponder why the masses can never be reached.

Placed in perspective, the State of Texas alone executes more people annually than the Iranian Regime does, and the United States has the highest per capita Prison Population in the world.

Sure our methods might be more humane, but the reality is our 'free' to a good home democracy has far more laws, and far more people languishing in jail than any Islamic Theocracy does.

Our prisons might be nicer, but that's no consolation for people in them for victimless crimes. Is there really any true difference between being prosecuted for adultery than there is smoking marijuana?

Considering adultery hurts a number of people when you consider the spouses and if children are involved and individual narcotic consumption only hurts those who are individually consuming it, then in many ways adultery is a worse crime.

Which is besides the point, we have an imperfect system ourselves where the prisons are literally full of people who have never hurt anyone in any way, but are essentially there for having a 'good time'.

Why do we tolerate it? In part because we are more focused on fearing other people's laws instead of our own.

Why? Usually because of the religious minded, who fear the laws in places they don't live along religious reasons instead of fearing the laws that don't serve the masses right here.

So it's a cop out, and a ruse, in part designed simply to play into the hands of gunboat foreign policy which is never aimed at stopping the laws in those countries but getting corporate access to their resources, because they simply want to control all the resources, so they can pretty much dictate everything.

So honestly Stormdancer, whether you fall for the lie to the right, or the lie to the left, you are still falling for one.


edit on 12/2/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Whether the law doesn't favor you because smoking a joint gets you five years in prison, or gets you stoned by phsyical ones for committing adultry, laws everywhere don't often work out for the innocent law breaker following their desire to enjoy life and be free.


The shear concept of drawing equivalence between those two punishments………


Thanks for exemplifying my point.

As I stated, I would take a military dictatorship any day, compared to Islamic rule.

Good day…..



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


I am just posting information, the only way to decide the truth of the information is,

Time.
I am not forming an opinion.


edit on 122828p://bSaturday2011 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Whether the law doesn't favor you because smoking a joint gets you five years in prison, or gets you stoned by phsyical ones for committing adultry, laws everywhere don't often work out for the innocent law breaker following their desire to enjoy life and be free.


The shear concept of drawing equivalence between those two punishments………


Thanks for exemplifying my point.

As I stated, I would take a military dictatorship any day, compared to Islamic rule.

Good day…..


That really is a deflection which I imagine you know, as you depart extolling the virtues of a military dictatorship as long as it imposes the types of laws you imagine are safe for another society you don't even belong to.

Typically two things happen when tyrants rule a land, the Outlaw finds his place in history and the meek turn to religion.

So while yes, I can see, that you are very much trapped in that box and don't want out presently, until you come to honest terms with how Western imposed and propped up Eastern Dictatorships supported by the religious minded in this country, do lead to the rise of Outlaws (political violence/terrorism) in those regimes or religious salvation (chauvenist extremists and fundementalists) you are in fact going to be aiding in the very process, indeed insisting on it, that leads to the very thing you most fear.

How smart is that?

Not very!
edit on 12/2/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

So the million dollar question is why do they want it?

So for those conspiracy minded folks out there who see the globe as a chess board, that the illuminati play, and that there are no accidents or coincidences in the world that they have created and so long run and played, what is the real goal and purpose behind Egypt’s revolution.


Ding, Ding, Ding! Hold all tickets, we have a winner!

I have posed similar questions in recent threads PT. There is more than meets the eye. Not just a happy peoples' revolution after 31 years. I'm betting on an oil squeeze followed by a food squeeze for the world not simply for the poor Egyptians. Not that I'm particularly prescient. One would have to be totally blind to the various indexes and news reports. Whether what they feed me/us through the MSM is true or not is irrelevant. We are talking about globalists with the power to make lies into truths if need be. If they can think it and market it to us, they can make it happen for the most part. But...... they don't even have to, the various threats alone are enough to accomplish their goals.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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It does sound like there has been some cleaning up of the corruption, at least at the cabinet level. With all the election fraud in the past, there is going to be strong review to the election process. With a new political stage there will be a lot of new members and unclear party lines. The MB does sound like it will have a majority but could still end up with lots of different party factions and no single clear dominating party. This will help maintain a more moderate form of Islamic law as there is still a strong Christen aspect to the nation. Even if the MB do get in and want to bring Sharia law, I expect they would have a hard time with some of the more extreme elements like stoning as the culture has been without this practice for some time. There has been some state sanctioned torture going on for a while and was one reason for the uprising. With revolution taking place under relatively peaceful means it does look like the society is ready for a more civilised approach to governance.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


I am just posting information, the only way to decide the truth of the information is,

Time.
I am not forming an opinion.


edit on 122828p://bSaturday2011 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)


It's a real challenge reaching the masses Stormdancer because they do tend to fall for, and yes post the propaganda that manipulates and flames the fears, they themselves are often prone to share.

I have suffered greatly at the hands of Islam.

Muslims have given me a beautiful antique copper tea pot worth several hundred dollars, Cuban Cigars, Fine Cognac, some delicious meals Restuarant and Home Cooked and some mouth watering pastries, and some very tantalizing Belly Dancers and some amazingly deep and pleasant conversations about all manner of things.

I really hate them for this, yet somehow I manage to not want to seek out revenge, and to hide my fears that they might do this again, and again, as they have been prone to do.

What is it that Muslims have really done personally to you, that makes you fear them and want revenge against them so much more than I?

Really curious there?

Are you actually basing your views on your own real world, real time, first hand, first party, human to human interactions, or the propaganda put out by nations, religions and media sources, that yes, do want you to be afraid of them, not trust them, and believe that the only way you can be safe from them is to dominate them through an organized, state sponsored, yet corporate driven violent process.

What makes the Muslim convicted of Adultery more of a victim than the American convicted of betting on the Super Bowl?

What makes there desire to be adulterous more revolutionary and more worthy of support than an American betting on the Super Bowl.

What makes the government that will stone you for being more adulterous more dangerous than the one that will fine you send you to prison, cause you to lose your job, possibly home and family for betting on the Super Bowl, and why do you feel we need to change their governments more urgently than our own?

How much time do you need to consider all these things?

In a thread where I am yes, in fact trying to get people to see the bigger picture, of who really drives these things and benefits from them, so far it's mostly people extolling the politics of religion and their own personal fears and prejudices who are concerned about the outcome of events in Egypt.

Are we that easy to manipulate and frighten, a lot of people think so, because a lot of organizations are in fact promoting this fear, and yes, even promoting it here on ATS as part of a political/religious agenda of their own.

They don't want to look at what is going on, but what they don't want going on, and in the interim they don't even know what is going on, but are merely happy to arrive at an outcome where what they knowingly fear does't happen, even though the outcome itself might be a much more frightening one than that.

Where if anywhere will intelligent, open minded people without agendas, who are just interested in the truth ever come together, in a process of overcoming the imagined?

I don't know, but I do believe people who are looking for more time to indulge their fears, are soon going to find out that time, is the one thing they finally ran out of.

Thanks.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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What I think might happen as a result of this 'Revolution'

Over the next few months...quietly, slowly, with as little fuss as possible, all those at the forefront of organising this latest uprising/revolution will be rounded up and vanish into the same oppressive system that Mubarak presided over. Mubarak might be gone, but everything and everyone responsible for oppressing the Egyptian people is still there.

Those in power will have learned from the last 3 weeks... They will have learned the avenues of communications used, and most importantly who were at the forefront of organising them.

With the SILENT backing of all those countries (including the US) who are happy trading stability for supporting dictatorships, this is what ill happen... All those willing and able to start another 'revolution' will be rounded up, vanish, and those who have now taken power will consolidate that power into something resembling the last 30 years. They will plug all the possible avenues of dissent... this with the silent support of all those who have been telling Mubarak to step down and listen to the wishes of the people.

There will be the occasional complaint from the US, Europe or the UK when some excess, or obvious sign of oppressive behaviour comes to light... but it will be nothing more than cosmetic diplomacy... and it will be business as usual for all the main players.

Depressive and cynical outlook on my part, I know.... but I every time I ask myself, 'What is there to stop this scenario?' ... the answer is always 'Nothing!'

Sorry for the bad vibes in your thread, Proto

edit on 12/2/2011 by Dagar because: spelling



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by Hemisphere
 


What I see here so far most of all. Is a lot of otherwise decent and intelligent people praising the imposition of a Military Dictatorship as a 'fantastic alternative' as long as it's not this_________Leader or that _________brother hood.

Now that my friend is a very frightening outcome and when you get people all over the world singing that tune, well you can likely look for more miltary dictatorships being welcome that don't feature this_________Leader and that __________religion or that _______________religious inspired/styled organization.

All hail the rise of the Military Dictatorship.

The people have won, power to the people!




posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by Dagar
 


My wise and brilliant friend Dagar you and I should be running the world, because clearly we understand all to well how the Powers that Be do.

This is what happened more or the last time as the people involved in Sadat's assissination, and when I mean involved simply a member of the organization were slowly all hunded down, imprisoned or killed.

Estimates are some 30,000 people were sent to prison indefinately or murdered by the State authorities.

The street level organization of spys and enforcers is very much still existent where it was long said that if five people sat down in Egypt to complain about Mubarak and how to oust him from power, the fifth one wrote out and sent a report to Mubarak.

All those people are still going to want to get paid by the same system in a nation where 40% live in poverty with unemployment close to 20%.

The likelihood of the Field Marshall in charge of Mubarak's military who is now in control not wanting to use that same network to his advantage are likely not too good.

I fear the people in Egypt have some more tough days ahead for them.

Thanks for posting my friend.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by Dagar
 





all those at the forefront of organising this latest uprising/revolution will be rounded up and vanish into the same oppressive system that Mubarak presided over.


I wouldn't doubt that at all.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Estimates are some 30,000 people were sent to prison indefinately or murdered by the State authorities.



Just a fraction of the numbers Castro has rolled up in 50+ years my friend. No one frets for the poor Cubans. Castro does not control the Suez Canal and so on he goes. And so why Egypt? Why now? We're on the cusp of widely advertised world food shortages. Control the oil, control the food, control the world. Hard for anyone to revolt on empty bellies.

This from November on everyone's favorite, the Council on Foreign Relations website:

New Food Crisis Looms

Thank you, Zbigniew! They're letting us know it's coming. They "told us so". They are greasing the skids. They take advantage of situations that present themselves. This is what is behind Egypt.


"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel


Sometimes a duck is a duck.
edit on 12-2-2011 by Hemisphere because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Hemisphere
 


Actually living in Miami and just getting back from a late lunch with some Cubans it's a subject that never stops being discussed here.

Yet amazingly much of what is happening right now was prophecized not by Christ or Paul or John, Ringo or Nastradamous, but Fidel.

I joke with many Cubans here that it might be time to say sorry to FIdel and ask for forgiveness and to be taken back.

It's a joke that's become sadly funnier than late as the prolonged economic crisis here lingers and more and more Cuban Americans lose their homes and businesses and are seriously pondering if they really ended up further ahead here in the long run than they would have there in the long run.

Unlike the U.S. with it's global integrated virtual economy because of the Embargo against Cuba that is over 50 years old, Cuba is almost entirely self sustained by necessity.

So in a very bizarre way if the SHTF in the way many of us fear it might, Cuba might end up being one of the better places to be when it does, Fidel and all.

Fidel is certainly a despot, and a cold blooded murderer of the highest order, but one might wonder where Cuba would be today, and what it might have turned into had it not been Embargoed for kicking the International Corporations and Banks out?

There really is another lesson to learn from Cuba and that's the slow death on the vine the International Corporations and Banking Cartel impose through the governments they control to embargo the rogue nations that won't allow them to operate within them above and outside of the law corrupting their political processes.

I love the Cuban people, they are some of the hardest working, enterprising, capitalists you are ever going to find, and people who by and large really embraced the American dream, a dream that for many after years of working and saving, and purchasing as left many now empty handed and almost as poor and propertyless as the day they arrived 50 years ago, as the Shadow Government manipulates the economic collapse and inflation that has caused so many other Americans too, to go down a road of loss and missery.

There is a danger in what has happened in Egypt a danger that might well repeat here and other nations again and again in the comming months and years as frustrated people with nothing left to lose and nothing to hope in any more take to the streets and topple governments just to place the military in control.

We live in truly fascinating times, very challenging ones, I hope that the people are going to be able to rise to truly meet them.

Time will tell.

Thanks for posting my friend.



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