Do you feel like Having to Work is un-natural?

I agree with some of the points in the OP... and with some of the quoted post from GLP.


But how would you afford to go to Tibet or Amsterdam or do all these wonderful things if you didn't work and have money?

I hate working as much as the next guy.... I really, really do..... but do you know what is worse....?

NOT working.

It's far more demoralising and far more boring than working.


If our entire society were different and people were all able to live off the land and trade and sell to one another and we could all somehow have free or "traded" travel anywhere in the world, then that would be fine... but It's not gonna happen..... we have to work and we have to work for so many different reasons... some for ourselves and some because everyone else benefits when we work and pay tax and National insurance etc.


Man.... it pains me to write that because I'd love to not have to work and just travel all over the world.... It's been my dream since I can remember.... but sadly, not many get to live their dream and even fewer get to not have to work for "the man"

reply to post by blupblup


Personally I abhor the idea of living off the land.
It is also much, much, MUCH more difficult than people here seem to imagine.
And it is repetitive.
And it is highly insecure. A year's hard work can be wiped out in a few minutes.

So, I for one am very happy that I live in a society where the "bartering" process has been replaced by euros. ;-)

BlupBlup, you talk about travelling.... Why don't you, then?
Can you see yourself as a travel writer? Or a travel guide?
Or working on an airplane, a ship, etc.?
If so, go for it.

There are also many other things one can do - yes, work - while travelling.
I doubt you would really enjoy all "fun" and no work. Not for long, anyway.

Originally posted by AdAstra
reply to post by blupblup

 

Personally I abhor the idea of living off the land.

It is also much, much, MUCH more difficult than people here seem to imagine.
And it is repetitive.
And it is highly insecure. A year's hard work can be wiped out in a few minutes.

So, I for one am very happy that I live in a society where the "bartering" process has been replaced by euros. ;-)

BlupBlup, you talk about travelling.... Why don't you, then?
Can you see yourself as a travel writer? Or a travel guide?
Or working on an airplane, a ship, etc.?
If so, go for it.

There are also many other things one can do - yes, work

- while travelling.
I doubt you would really enjoy all "fun" and no work. Not for long, anyway.

Exactly. Many dont seem to realize how brutally hard substinance farming can be. And these same people would most likely want this kind of communism (isnt what this really is? all living as one on a commune?), would not want fertilizers used. Hell, there would be no such thing besides manure. And no farm equiptment, as the infrastructure required to manufacture such products would not exist.

So starvation would once again become common. Not to mention farming can be back breaking work. You would most likely work 10-12 hours a day and possibly though most weekends.

Many will say "fine, but i will be satisfied in my work at the end of the day". Hogwash. The people who complain so much about how work is sub-human will hate this type of manual labour even more, as it is their lot in life to complain rather than find real solutions. Ill gladly work the job i do now, even if i dont make that much. My modern Western lifestyle affords me many comforts and luxuries that would never even exist in that type of world.

Exactly. Many dont seem to realize how brutally hard substinance farming can be. And these same people would most likely want this kind of communism (isnt what this really is? all living as one on a commune?), would not want fertilizers used. Hell, there would be no such thing besides manure. And no farm equiptment, as the infrastructure required to manufacture such products would not exist.

So starvation would once again become common. Not to mention farming can be back breaking work. You would most likely work 10-12 hours a day and possibly though most weekends.

I am not an expert on farming, but this much I know: 8-12 hours is what farmers do today, in "peak" work season (marketing and selling excluded).
Without all the modern equipment it would be, literally, from before dawn to night fall.

Nature doesn't wait for your convenience.
Nor is it always clement.

You mention famines. Indeed, people seem to forget that all the great famines, that wiped out entire regions, were a rural phenomenon. Even when there were famines in the cities, they were always linked to produce shortages, obviously.

It is hard, hard work; and a single storm, or an untimely frost, or a drought, or a bug can destroy a year or more of toiling.

Not for me, thanks.

[somehow have free or "traded" travel anywhere in the world, then that would be fine

You can have that right now. It's called "couch surfing" or something.
It's not my idea of travelling, but apparently thousands do it.


PS. Yep, I remembered corrrectly. Here it is:

www.couchsurfing.org...

reply to post by nightbringr


The solution to sub human, manual labor is mechanization. It has been the solution for a long time.

And why do people like you play the communism or socialism card if someone thinks that working as a whole towards a common goal is a good thing.

If there is a difficult problem to solve and one group of a hundred work together to solve it and another group of a hundred try to solve it individually, which group do you think would have a better chance of solving the problem?

Originally posted by AdAstra
BlupBlup, you talk about travelling.... Why don't you, then?
Can you see yourself as a travel writer? Or a travel guide?
Or working on an airplane, a ship, etc.?
If so, go for it.

There are also many other things one can do - yes, work

- while travelling.
I doubt you would really enjoy all "fun" and no work. Not for long, anyway.

I have looked into a few things over the years and really should have done something by now.
I may do at some point and yes.... I've thought about cruise ships and so on before.

I have travelled.... been to Asia and a few places in Europe... It's not that I haven't..... but I can't seem to settle... I have the travel bug and have had it for a long time now... looked at aid work and so on.... It's all a bit expensive right now though.

One day though..... one day.

Originally posted by ATC_GOD
Ok so how the heck do you expect to get from where ever you live to Europe if no one works.

WALK

reply to post by nightbringr

They complain about how the want to go back to living in simpler ways, but would never in a million years give up their Blackberry or Facebook.

The happiest I've ever been was in the appalachian mountains backpack camping without any electronics. Would I give up my cellphone and facebook for that? Um....YES! You sir have no idea what you're talking about. You are making huge assumptions here. There are many people who HAVE converted back to more simple ways of living. And they are truly happy. One doesn't need a car and computer to be happy.

Unsatisfied with your job? Get a new one! Unqualified for a better job? Work two lesser jobs, save up and educate yourself. It is in your power to do these things. Unsatisfied with your government? Form or join a lobby group with goals similar to your own. Hell, run for office! DO SOMTHING ABOUT IT!

Try telling this to a single mom with two jobs and kids. Or the kid who was going through college and had to drop out because of cancer and is now working an hourly job paying off medical bills for the rest of his life. Some people are STUCK. Some people CAN'T do something about it. Some are stuck in the system...it's kind of depressing actually.

The point is, no one is going to do it for you. Nor should anyone, especially the government do it for you.

I feel the same way. People shouldn't be relying on the government...it should be the opposite.

Those who have given up and refuse to work because they say their are only feeding the rich are lazy sods who are trying desperately to justify their actions while at the same time being a tax burden on the working folk. Working people contribute to society as a whole, capable people who decide to leech off the welfare system are a drain and parasite on our economy. Who do you think im mad at?

But again out of your own rage against people that milk the system, you've missed the main point of the OP. That the type of work our society impresses on us i.e. sitting at a computer desk typing all day, waiting 2 hours in traffic, wearing a suit and tie everyday, selling merchandise to people you'll never see again in your life, is un-natural.

Originally posted by nightbringr


Exactly. Many dont seem to realize how brutally hard substinance farming can be. And these same people would most likely want this kind of communism (isnt what this really is? all living as one on a commune?), would not want fertilizers used. Hell, there would be no such thing besides manure. And no farm equiptment, as the infrastructure required to manufacture such products would not exist.

So starvation would once again become common. Not to mention farming can be back breaking work. You would most likely work 10-12 hours a day and possibly though most weekends.

Where the heck do you get your ideas from? People have been living like that for well over 5,000 years. And btw I despise communism. Stop lumping people into one group. Just because someone wants to be a farmer doesn't mean they are a communist, tree-hugging, whale-saving hippie.

And I've actually built my own personal garden in my backyard. It wasn't that hard. Put aside the wooden constructs I built for aesthetics the whole thing probably took 2 hours?

I hate to ask, but do you ever get out of the house? ( Shopping malls and coffee shops don't count )

Oh yes, work is fantastic...
My good friend earns a fortune. He travels around Europe, never works less than twelve hours a day, hardly sees his wife and kids and spends his weekends fast asleep! Yes, he has a lovely home... Yes, he owns an expensive car... And, yes, for a fortnight every year he has a lovely holiday abroad....
But is he really living!?
I would rather be poor and live my life to the full than miss my life and let it pass me by because I was too busy making someone else a millionaire why my own kids forgot what it was like to spend an afternoon of fun with their dad....

Originally posted by Golden Boy
I don't think that you actually lose half of your income to taxation, unless you're one of the big earners that this thread is railing against. This picture illustrates the tax rates for high- and low-income citizens in the United States for the past few decades:

Yet almost all the loopholes are for the high-bracket tax-payers, so while in theory they should pay the highest percentage in a progressive taxation system, in practice they actually pay much less than the middle class; first because they can afford tax attorneys which advise them of everything and second because the wealthy class is a tiny minority of the overall population.

Originally posted by Golden Boy
So you actually lose about ten percent of your total income to income taxes.

Ten percent from a middle class family will deprive them of many things, while ten percent from a wealthy family is like getting bit from a mosquitto.

Originally posted by Golden Boy
And I don't think that anyone would argue that taxation is entirely unnecessary. Governments are, first and foremost, tasked with maintaining the country's prosperity. This means that they need to defend the country from external threats, maintain the country's roadways, and pay the salaries of politicians.

I would agree with you in regard to local and state taxation but with federal taxes there is huge waste. One third of the annual budget goes just to pay interest on the national debt which has rissen to 11-12 trillion dollars by now.

Then the second third goes to maintain our military, while half of that(at least) goes to the black budget. What constitutes the black budget is anyones guess but I doubt its just b-2 bombers and f-118 stealth attackers. Lots of ufo and mind control techs being experimented on?

The final third goes to pay non-military federal employees and then whatever is left out goes to interstate highways, major airports/harbors/museums/etc...

Originally posted by Golden Boy
Of course, there are actually many, many more things that governments do, but for the sake of discussion we'll just use those three, since we don't really need a hugely in-depth look at it to get the idea.

Those who have taken a look at "the details" are abhored by the level of waste, corruption and ineffectiveness.

Originally posted by Golden Boy
Then we have sales tax. Again, the amount of money that is required to maintain the country each year is absolutely staggering. Ten percent off the top from America's households simply doesn't cut it. Sales tax is put in place as a way to fill the gap.

Maybe your naive but literally everything is and has been taxed to death. You buy cigarretes you pay cigarrete tax, gasoline tax, liquor tax, inheritance tax, gun stamps, licence fees, property tax, sales tax, state tax, federal tax, social security withholdings, disability and unemployment, luxury tax, perfume tax, traffic violation fines, car registration fees, toll road fees, airport tax for landing and takeoff, ship docking fees, etc.

For everything you "possess"(actually lease from the national corporation) you pay double and triple its original value. That my friend is indentured servitude and most people fail to see it for what it really is because we have been brainwashed from an early age in the west to think "the government is always right". Its the wrong attitude to have because it puts people in perpetual sleep mode and leaves the door open for the cunning exploitaters.

You might say *everything* is ok under capitalism, but who the hell said everyone wants capitalism and who said it was ok for some to make billions while others get by on scraps? I understand animals in the jungle do as they please but I always thought humans were supreme "animals" and could do much better than that. Of course if a baby does not scream and cry when its hungry then the mother may not understand its feeding time. Simarly if the people never protest, OR PROTEST FOR THE WRONG REASONS, then the government may not get the correct message and continue down the path of self-destruction, not just for itself but for everyone!

Originally posted by Golden Boy
Now, you can argue that tax rates are too high, but ten percent isn't really all that much. Yes, the government wastes a lot of money, but that's a problem with the federal budget rather than the taxation system, and it would be better to take it up with your Congressman than with the IRS.

Fine...try calling or writting your senator to voice your opinions. At most you will get "Hi bob, thanks for communicating your concerns with "your friendly" representative. We will do our best to get back to you as soon as humanely possible...all the best!" while at worst you will be totally ignored because someone at the post office decided your not worth his/her time.

Originally posted by Golden Boy
For all intents and purposes, when speaking economically, governments are huge businesses which provide maintenance for a country. You are taxed because the company has to collect on its services. If you don't want to pay for the government's actions, leave the country. If you're here, after all, you're enjoying the same benefits that paying customers (citizens) do, but without paying - in other words, if you don't pay taxes, you're stealing.

And that is the problem with modern governments; they are run as a business for profit just like any other private/public corporation. The real issue here is that the government barely represents the people and always suffers a loss. I don't know any government that has ever had a profit, but even if it did WHO WOULD GET THE DIVIDENDS?

Originally posted by Golden Boy
So the government isn't just taking your money for no reason. Again, there are no Snidely Whiplash machinations going on. It's just business. The government does what it has to do to maintain the country. If you're unhappy with the services provided, vote to change policy or leave the country.

If the majority vote for stupidity then the rest have to go along for the ride again and again. Leaving the country will only make things worse because you don't speak the native language and second foreigners are never really treated equally with the locals.

So you offer no solutions..."just" a catch-22!

Originally posted by Golden Boy
As for bloated oil prices, that's not really the government's fault. Again, it's simple economics. Demand for oil is high. Amazingly so, in fact. Supply of oil is low. Not incredibly low, but lower than the demand. That makes prices skyrocket. And, yes, businesses jack up the price even further. Again, they're running businesses for one reason and one reason only: to make money. They aren't trying to destroy the lower classes; they're just making as much money as they can.

Demand for oil is fairly static. We need oil. It's not a choice. We have to have it. This means that the price can go as high as it wants to, and we will pay it, because we have to. The only thing regulating oil prices are the companies themselves. This means that there are two things which might happen: a price war and a group pricing.

In the former, the companies compete with each other, lowering their prices as far as they are willing to. We have to have the oil, but we don't want to pay more than absolutely necessary, so we'll buy from the company which offers us the lowest price. This won't lower the price by too much, but it does keep it from going completely astronomical. In this scenario, only one oil company gets the money from the consumers, because they're the only one that is charging the low price.

In the latter, the companies get together and decide to share revenue by setting a common price for oil which all of them will charge. This means that the price can go as high or low as they want it to without any company missing out. All of them get some revenue, but it's not as much as if they had gone into a price war. Odds are that this is what's going on right now.

So even the oil prices aren't evil conspiracies to keep the working man in bondage slavery. Your current condition is very, very far from slavery, in fact. I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next man, but that's going a little far. The fact that you're pretty much stuck in your current condition isn't a conspiracy against you, and it certainly isn't slavery. It's just economics.

Price fixing used to be illegal in most countries under the so called "anti-trust legislation". What happened here the last 2-3 decades? I find it depressing that you support private monopolies but likely despise public monopolies! Why so?

Even capitalism SHOULD HAVE some restraints...........

I want to help you out. First of all, I want to say that I do not like my handle anymore, orwellianunenlightenment. I will say, however, that the breakdown did teach me much. I will also say that I agree, work is unnatural, especially the way many do it today. I would say keep busting your butt, don't give up, and then, if you want, you might figure out a way to be in touch with the natural and still work. I think work is unbearable when people feel they are missing something. Here's my advice. Take it or leave it. Tough it out while still looking for what you are looking for. Don't feel lonely because you are not alone, no matter what you might think. Not saying you are, you just look that way in the photo. I've been there, and I have recently had to go through some really heavy sh** which I will not discuss with you. Just saying, you have a chance to be happy. Don't give up.

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
Oh yes, work is fantastic...
My good friend earns a fortune. He travels around Europe, never works less than twelve hours a day, hardly sees his wife and kids and spends his weekends fast asleep! Yes, he has a lovely home... Yes, he owns an expensive car... And, yes, for a fortnight every year he has a lovely holiday abroad....
But is he really living!?
I would rather be poor and live my life to the full than miss my life and let it pass me by because I was too busy making someone else a millionaire why my own kids forgot what it was like to spend an afternoon of fun with their dad....

I agree, we are all working to keep our families safe and happy. But are we really truly happy when we only get to spend a few hours with the most important people in our lives?

reply to post by freedish

Exactly! It seems you understand what I'm saying... A career should provide you money enough to accomadate your family and interest you enough to stimulate your mind... It shouldn't steal you away from your wife and children! A child would rather have a poor father who takes him to the park and spends time with him than rich father who he never sees!

reply to post by GeminiSky


Man, you are right. The way I see it, too much structured time, too much stress are completely out of whack with nature. We are not machines.

Think of everything in terms of nature or evolution.

Structured time: Punching a clock is not normal behavior for any species. Nature's timepieces are the sun, the moon and the seasons. Wake up AROUND daylight, rest during the heat of the day, go to sleep after dark. Even if dark comes at 6:30 pm, as it does in the winter. Our biological clocks are based on these things, not freaking mechanical clocks. Try being on time while using the sun as a guide. Wont work.

Psycho-biological Stress: Having to bite one's tongue constantly, "obey" physically inferior "superiors", constantly ignore and suppress sexual drives. True in any social situation, but work REQUIRES this on a daily basis. When I have the option, I stay home most of the time. Because I can be at peace (mostly). When I am not at work, if someone gives me crap, especially some 90 pound twerp, I can ignore them or "put them in their place" via body language, tone of voice, etc.. Finally, if I am sexually interested, I can flirt (when I get up the nerve).

I could go on. But, since I'm not at work and I don't HAVE to, I won't.

In short, don't feel abnormal if you think modern work is F*ed up. It is. You aren't crazy. This place is. Try self-employment; join the rainbow people, or go find a "medical" aid.

Good luck, bro.

reply to post by GeminiSky


I didn't read any of the post,

but this came to mind,

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Originally posted by AdAstra
You can have that right now. It's called "couch surfing" or something.
It's not my idea of travelling, but apparently thousands do it.


PS. Yep, I remembered corrrectly. Here it is:

www.couchsurfing.org...

Well I more meant actually getting there, actual travel, not accommodation.
It costs money to get anywhere in the world.

That's what I meant by traded or free travel.

reply to post by freedish


You are delusional if you equate running a successful garden in the back of your house with living off the land.

To successfully sustenance farm and actually be able to survive through a winter, you will have to do a lot better than grow A few fruits and veggies. You will need livestock or have to hunt to provide needed protien. You will have to grow enough to last you a cold, hard winter, and one drought can easily lead to starvation for you and your family. No government aid to fall back on. No fertilizer or farming equiptment to make life easier.

Think carefully or do some real research on how pioneers or sustenance farmers live. Modern people have no idea of the hardships faced in those days.

I don't doubt people back then were just as happy or happier than we are now, but they lived mo where near as comfortably or securely as we do now.

I could live the rest of my days on welfare in Canada and never go hungry or cold due to the welfare system. Back then I would die doing the same thing.

Open your eyes and mind.

reply to post by GeminiSky


Hello!
I definitly agree with what your experiencing. Much like yourself im starting to thrive in my career but as things get better I find myslef getting down about life and how strange the way we live them. I do believe in my own opinion, that life is meant to be more educational. I think if i was a scientist studying in an area I had a passionate curiosity for, i'd be much happier. I think without a feeling of importance in your input to the world community, some people begin to realise how pointless most career's are. Created soley to keep us busy while lining other's pockets. (I work in the wine label industry, where people spend millions on machinery to make the prettiest label's for bottles that go straight in the bin most of the time)

So much money, effort and labour to get a result which doesn't help humanity in anyway.