Do you feel like Having to Work is un-natural?

reply to post by StopandThink


The problem is that we assume these "jobs" are what makes the world go round. The reality is that technology could be used, and has to some extent already, to free humans from labor. As a matter of fact, most jobs could be eliminated today because of mechanization. The only reason it hasn't is because it would create mass unemployment and no one would have any money to buy the products. That's why 80% of the population is in the service industry doing boring, mundane, robotic, unnatural jobs. Just so we have a little spending power to buy a bunch of stuff we don't need and doesn't truly fulfill us.

It's ridiculous the way we live our lives and it's time for a new paradigm. What we are doing is in no way, shape or form sustainable, let alone fulfilling.

reply to post by Reflection


You are so wrong.

A human being that can be forced one way or another, to work or handle animal livestock or any other task is priceless.

Do you know what that means?

That means that a controlled human being is more valuable than any other resource that could be.

That means if you can handle livestock, you can also learn to handle a tractor, fly a plain and so on.

See the picture?

A modern human slave is the best technological break through ever. A human being who has the impression that he is a free human being is very productive.

reply to post by spy66


What exactly am I wrong about? I'm not sure how what I said is relevant to what you are saying...which I actually agree with. If you read my previous post on the previous page, I talk about how the best slave for his master is the one that doesn't even realize he is a slave.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Shameless self promotion of my counterpoint thread!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

i just read your post and i think you missed the point. life isnt so hard that your whole post...no, your whole LIFE..should revolve around this housing issue. housing is a basic need of all animals.

you spent time with a roommate you hated because of excessive housing costs. you seem happy that you have a too small house and less mortgage, because of excessive housing costs. you define life as hard, because of housing costs. but, if housing were treated like a human need, instead of a cultural-path toward enslaving the populace, we would not have excessive housing costs.

it does not cost many hundreds of thousands to build a decent house. it does not take 30 years of fulltime labor to build a house, so why is a mortgage set at 30 years for $1000's a month?

you have been scammed my friend. let me put it simply. if housing were priced according to costs/labor and human need, instead of as an investment vehicle to subjugate the masses, no one would need to work more than 20 hours a week to fulfill all they have NOW...all they have right now currently!

you accept slavery the way a cow accepts feed and then moo loudly that you won and there is no life outside the fences. the truth is there are already enough houses to give a home to everyone. there are currently empty units, AND homeless people. there are billions of mortgages, but we all live in houses already built!?!?!?!

so whats the problem here? one problem. we are enslaved to insane housing prices, and spend our entire lives paying for it. this is the linchpin of elite-control. excessive housing costs CREATE factory slaves. thats why it is the way it is, and thats wrong. we could have those extra 20 hours a week to create a true culture we could all enjoy, with plenty of arts, compassion and resources for all. suffice to say, something is wrong with the corporate capital slave system my friend - its not intended to benefit the masses, but the few.

i ask EVERYONE this question: christian or buddhist or darwinist-who-benefits-from-cooperation, i ask you all the same question. why do we as humans even bother to organize into a society if it isnt to benefit us all? excessive housing cost is a scam that says we are here to benifit the few and enslave our people. where is the american dream? in a house? ...a house we cannot afford? quality of life cannot be found in the nightmare the wealthy class has made of our collective dream. we are owned.

Originally posted by trailertrash
reply to post by GeminiSky

 

You are married. Right? 'Cause if you are not then you are nuts. Cash in, buy a 24 ft sloop and cut yourself free for a couple of years. 'Round the world trailing a fine netting in the cold waters and subsisting on plankton. If that's good enough for a Blue Whale you can eat it and thrive. Learn to live off the sea. Take notes, watch the stars, check out the skies for UFO's. Heave to and do some open ocean diving. Lay ahull at midnight and drop an electric spotlight 50 ft down and watch, through a glass, in awe at all the deep sea critters that have risen to meet the moon (and also to escape the predators below). Catch rain in the sail. Build a solar still. Find that certain creatures make their own fresh water and store it in special bladders. It is drinkable in an emergency. Find a whale shark and dive to keep it company as it swims along ignoring you. Note the 6 ft wide mouth and the muscular body that could swat you like a bug if it were so disposed. Do all these kinds of things for a couple of years. Then return and write a book or finish the poetry or music that came to you during your trek. After this your life will never be boring again. At 69 years old I know whereof I speak.

Of course if you really want to be a no balls, imagination numb salesman well then.....

Great post sir! I can tell you have been all around the world and I bet you'd be an interesting person to talk to IRL. Unfortunately the experience you are describing will never be had by most people. 200 years ago maybe. But people are too comfortable in their technology and too stuck in the system. BTW your profile name doesn't seem to match your post content. Maybe you should change it to SailorTrash? Hehe joking.

reply to post by GeminiSky


Many times I have felt like this. I keep having the same tape play in my head,"I wasn't put on this earth to work for someone else and make them rich." If I had my way I would be living off the land, but it is an impossible dream because of the way life is set up. You need money for everything, and the only way to get it is by working. My father worked 30+ years on the railroad, only to die at the young age of 56. The only solution I see is finding something to do that you love and that you can make money from. I laugh when I think about the comic who said,"A rich man plans for his retirement, and a poor man buys lottery tickets." Everyone has said some very intelligent stories about work and life. There is a lot to learn in these posts.

reply to post by HomeBrew
I understand where you are coming from, however, I have to ask, do you really want to go back in time to the age where man hunted, fought to defend his plot, and built his own shelter? If you really stopped to think about it, you would realize that working has helped us to not only be able to afford these necessities, but to come out of the dark ages, so to speak. If you did not work, how would you afford things like, electricity, cable, phone, internet, a car? How would you afford health insurance? How would you pay for things like glasses or dentist visits? And hunting only accounts for a small portion of human nutritional needs. Are you also willing to plant and farm, tend flocks, grow your food, etc? What you are suggesting is actually more work, than just going to a 9-5, or a 9-9 in your case, and then collecting a paycheck. I think you have become complacent and forgot about all the luxuries we have been afforded, by the progression of technology and the ability to buy and pay for these new commodities. I personally prefer to not go back to the olden days. I enjoy being able to watch tv, get online, go to the doctor when I need to, get in my car and drive, etc. Either way, you are going to work. Whether it be in the field and with the flocks, or in the office or workplace. God created man to work. He said that by the sweat of man's brow you will eat. He said that a man who does not work, does not eat. So, to suggest that God did not create man to work, is to completely contradict what God said in the Bible. I hope that you can find peace with your profession, and contentment in your life. Working is a necessity and it is perfectly natural and normal. Take care.

Originally posted by MITSwagger
Why do we have to "pay" to live on a planet where we were born? I really see no difference from history of slavement of African Americans to the modern version of planetary slavery. If it's this way for all then it can pass as being life and not slavery.

Yes more commonly it's called Wage Slavery.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/256b4ce2b309.jpg[/atsimg]
A pharaoh with hook and whip.

In wage slavery, the hooks and chains are debt and contracts, the whips are rent and usury

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b67367c3c767.jpg[/atsimg]
a wage slave

wikipedia
the elite maintain wage slavery and a divided working class through their influence over the media and entertainment industry,[56][57] educational institutions, unjust laws, nationalist and corporate propaganda, pressures and incentives to internalize values serviceable to the power structure, state violence, fear of unemployment[58] and a historical legacy of exploitation and profit accumulation/transfer under prior systems

for lower skilled workers in developed countries–particularly in the growing service sector– indicate that the more workers depend on low wages, and the less skilled or desirable their job is, the more employers screen for workers without better employment options and expect them to feign unremunerative motivation. At the same time, employers in the service industry have justified unstable, part-time employment and low wages by playing down the importance of service jobs for the lives of the wage laborers (e.g. just temporary before finding something better, student summer jobs etc).[82]

In the early 20th century, “scientific methods of strikebreaking” were devised–employing a variety of tactics that emphasized how strikes undermined “harmony” and “Americanism”.[83]

RobertKuttner
Under wage labor, “a relatively small elite demands and gets empowerment, self-actualization, autonomy, and other work satisfaction that partially compensate for long hours” while “epidemiological data confirm that lower-paid, lower-status workers are more likely to experience the most clinically damaging forms of stress, in part because they have less control over their work.”
‎
“to be in a life situation where one experiences relentless demands by others, over which one has relatively little control, is to be at risk of poor health, physically as well as mentally.”

Wage slavery “implies erosion of the human personality… [because] some men submit to the will of others, arousing in these instincts which predispose them to cruelty and indifference in the face of the suffering of their fellows.”[88]
RobertKuttner quote
wikipedia excerpt en.wikipedia.org...

Not only does wage-slavery make people indifferent and cruel to the suffering of their fellows
but also to the suffering of their food such as industrially-farmed plants and animals

This is quite apparent in how people are forced to destroy the environment, to appease their banking Pharaoh's,

imprisoning family in a house of debt (mortgage).
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5f6a52cd3ab1.jpg[/atsimg]
banking pharaoh and lumberjack,


Refuse to Work!

Form a sustainable tribal community instead.

wikipedia
Subordination in work, Black alleges, makes people stupid and creates fear of freedom. Because of work, people become accustomed to rigidity and regularity, and do not have the time for friendship or meaningful activity.

Play, in contrast, is not necessarily rule-governed, and is performed voluntarily, in complete freedom, as a gift economy. He points out that hunter-gatherer societies are typified by play, a view he backs up with the work of Marshall Sahlins;

he recounts the rise of hierarchal societies, through which work is cumulatively imposed, so that the compulsive work of today would seem incomprehensibly oppressive even to ancients and medieval peasants.

the vast majority of work does not need doing at all. The latter tasks are unnecessary because they only serve functions of commerce and social control that exist only to maintain the work-system as a whole. As for what is left, he advocates Charles Fourier's approach of arranging activities so that people will want to do them.

Over the past twenty-five years, there has been a substantial increase in work which is felt to be due, in part, by information technology and by an intense, competitive work environment. Long-term loyalty and a "sense of corporate community" have been eroded by a performance culture that expects more and more from their employees yet offers little security in return.

Many experts predicted that technology would eliminate most household chores and provide people with much more time to enjoy leisure activities; but many ignore this option, encouraged by prevailing consumerist culture and a political agenda that has "elevated the work ethic to unprecedented heights and thereby reinforced the low value and worth attached to parenting".

Many are experiencing burnout due to overwork and increased stress. This condition is seen in nearly all occupations from blue collar workers to upper management. Over the past decade, a rise in workplace violence, an increase in levels of absenteeism as well as rising workers’ compensation claims are all evidence of an unhealthy work life balance.

The study shows that seventy percent of US respondents and eighty-one percent of global respondents say their jobs are affecting their health.

Between forty-six and fifty-nine percent of workers feel that stress is affecting their interpersonal and sexual relationships.
wikipedia excerpt
en.wikipedia.org...

Refuse to Work!

Form a sustainable tribal community instead.

wikipedia

An intentional community is a planned residential community designed to have a much higher degree of teamwork than other communities. The members of an intentional community typically hold a common social, political, religious, or spiritual vision and are often part of the alternative society. They typically also share responsibilities and resources. Intentional communities include cohousing communities, ecovillages, communes, survivalist retreats, kibbutzim, ashrams and some housing cooperatives.
wikipedia excerpt
en.wikipedia.org...

Intentional community is a message of hope.
If you can't find some land to do it on, can go for the sea.

the concept of creating permanent dwellings at sea, called seasteads, outside the territories claimed by the governments of any standing nation.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by lowki


Very informative, albeit depressing post...

reply to post by GeminiSky


I do not feel having to work is unnatural. I love to work.

I feel working for someone else is unnatural. Its very unnatural to work and give other people the majority of the value your labor produces, knowing that many people who are not working much at all, if at all, will be enjoying the fruits of your labor, at your expense.

Human beings are designed to work. Hell some people work harder trying to get out of the slave labor system than they would if they actually just were good little serfs and produced for the masters. But many of us dont take well to being farmed. Domesticated. Enslaved. We pretend the two things are the same, and they arent.

Domestication of other humans has only been going on for ~ 12-15,000 years? While just working we have done from the get.

You dont have to work nearly as many hours a day, or days a week, either, when you are not carrying parasites on your back.

Originally posted by GeminiSky
reply to post by lowki

 

Very informative, albeit depressing post...

Well I finished it up with a message of hope, intentional-communities and seasteading.
Here's a music-video of someone successfully escaping wage-slavery
by Placebo - Slave to the Wage

After realizing the frivilous nature of work,
the main character goes off in a space-ship,
more realistically can sail-away in a seastead ship.

At this time can get an ocean-worthy vessel for $4,000 on craigslist.

Here is a music-video about sailing-away,
it's by celtic singer Enya called Orinoco flow,
with pictures of sailing scenery and imagery.

Working is not my issue, I enjoy my work.
If one plans ahead he can enjoy work as well.
No plan means you fall through the cracks to do something you don't want to do... and well that falls on your own shoulders.

The bills however are something I have a common disgust with... Too high, for services not met.

I think its the bills you take issue to not the job, although if it is the job only you can make that change, and complaining to any amount of people will not remedy that for you.

For you hold that final key to happy. Need it? Get it. Want it? Work for it. Live it? Live for it.

reply to post by GeminiSky


Hey buddy I'm with you!

I think maybe what you are trying to say is slavery isn't natural. We all need to work because thats what makes the world go round but its the slavery that gets me every time. Only one answer to this. Self employment!

I learned a trade (telecommunication) while being a slave and not spending one penny on school for it. I'm not married and no kids, just the way I want it for now so no pressure there. I went from one company to another company and learned more in the process. Then I got called to do a couple of contracts from my old company's client. Grossed 50k in three months and have been sitting on my ass since November.

No new contracts on the horizon but now I know what it feels like to be your own boss and what pennies on the dollar slaves get. Not worth it. I'm happy to do what ever I want whenever I want and with whom. It won't last forever however and there certainly isn't any job security. But, I hear you. And when I hear about people having to work 3 jobs I can't believe it. I believe it but that would never be me. I guess the trick is, stay SINGLE and don't make any babies.

reply to post by FlySolo


you sound like spam mail LMAO

reply to post by rightuos


heh ya, I guess that did sound like a spam promo didn't it All true though, so yea it can happen to you!

I confess to not having read through all of the posts here so apologies in advance for any repetition.
I was struck by the candid openness of the OP and just wanted to share some of my own thoughts on the subject. After completing my studies I went to work in a sales job at a national newspaper. In many respects it was great fun: first real job, first time I had some real money of my own to play with, fairly like-minded young colleagues who were up for a good time. But then there was the actual job....

...It was mundane; sitting at a desk dialling numbers of people who had no wish to be disturbed by some telesales; plugging away over long days towards ridiculous targets just so that, as far as I could tell, some already fabulously wealthy owner could become even wealthier - his unscrupulousness was confirmed a few years after I left when he was convicted of fraud.

There is an amusing side-note to this tale: the period this part of the story relates to was between 1997 and 2001. The dot-com bubble was expanding at an unthinkable rate, new web companies were cropping up everywhere and the traditional media were deeply afraid. There we were, based in Canary Wharf in one of Europe's most modern office buildings, yet we were denied use of the internet and not even allowed email (in case we abused them and were distracted away from the job in question) instead we had to chase leads using the yellow pages, cos that's much quicker, right?!?

Moving to another major London media company, it was much the same. OK they were more open-minded about the new technology, but it was still same same old corporate BS. I played along for a while - after all you gotta do something to earn the daily bread, but I was deeply dissatisfied with this life. I commuted into London by train each day from the south coast. I remember one day, after doing this for several months, a group of middle aged guys who always occupied the same table on the same train into London were having some kind of celebration. Listening in it became clear that one of the older members of the group was going into retirement and that this was the last time he would be making the journey along with his 'commuting' buddies.

I have no idea what the guy did for a living. It was very likely, given the typical profile of south coast commuters into London, that he was some city employee. He was probably on a good salary with a nice big pension to look forward to. And yet seeing this old(er) guy, whose daily life had no doubt consisted of the same routine day-in day-out for, what 20, 30, even 40 years, I was freaked out. No way was I going to let life pass me by like that. No way was I going to let myself get sucked into a job/career whose only bright spot would be going into retirement at 65, only to spend my dwindling years reflecting on 20 or more years' commuting by British Sodding Rail!

So I resolved to change things. My wife, who is Swedish, and I decided to get out and return to her home country. I chucked in my job and spent the first year working on a farm while I tried to get to grips with the language. Gradually I was able to start offering translation services and now I am full-time, self employed and love what I do. I have the freedom to decide how I work and when I work, and I make better money than I ever did in those mundane London sales jobs.

Returning to the OP, all I can say is that work per se is not unnatural if you find something you enjoy. Even our ancient ancestors, the hunter gatherers, had to work - hunting and gathering - and I am sure at times it was a real bitch, which is why some stayed home painting their caves presumably. If you don't like how your life is now be prepared to change things - its a scary thought and it isn't always easy thing to accomplish, but I am a firm believer that if there are aspects of your life you do not like, only you can change them. There is no point spending later years feeling bitter and resentful about missed opportunities. Life is not a rehearsal.

On a more general level. What I think the OP is alluding to is more a sense of where 'we' collectively are heading in terms of work, i.e. our role in the corporate capitalist machinery so to speak. And this is where my own experience has taught me there are far more insidious forces at work. First of all let me make it clear, I am not a communist, or a socialist. I live in a country with ridiculously high taxes. I have to reckon on giving away half of everything I earn to the state. This means that the kids of wealthy middle and upper class folks can take advantage of free education; that murderers and rapists can sit in cosy jail cells with 42" plasma screens and that the welfare state can afford to employ half the working-age population, only to keep half of that number on sickness and disability benefits. No, the social democratic model of this country leaves much to be desired - and yet the alternative model, capitalism, is the great evil of our time IMO.

I listened yesterday to a fascinating interview with Edgar Mitchell, the former Apollo astronaut. The link is down today as the server is overloaded (ha, ha, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks the guy had some interesting stuff to say). The link to the thread is here

Of course most of the attention is being given to his thoughts regarding ET technology, but I was equally fascinated by his remarks at the start of the interview where he rails against the greed of capitalism and how, absent an idealogical opponent, capitalism has given rise to rampant greed and self-serving behaviour that is counter-productive for humanity. I agree with this assumption wholeheartedly - the West's acceptance of capitalism as the only alternative to communism is borne straight out of a cold war mentality - we won, therefore it has to be right. While capitalism has no doubt helped to speed up mankind's progress, it comes at a cost.

Published in 1972, the Limits to Growth suggested that unchecked industrial and population growth would lead to the eventual overshoot and collapse (of society) wikipedia. The 1993 follow up, Beyond the Limits wikipedia goes further by saying that in many respects we have already begun to 'overshoot' and only immediate and direct intervention will prevent massive and catastrophic collapse of human society. Within capitalism we are faced with an increasingly apparent paradox: as societies develop, our birth-rates decrease while life expectancy rises. This leads to massive demographic imbalances. So in a nutshell we have the following: An ageing population that we feel compelled to look after and keep alive, and a working population that has to work harder and produce more in order to rectify this imbalance (short-term). Over the longer term, the industrial growth levels for the growing imbalanced population demands more raw materials to be extracted and processed into goods, adding to pollution. The industrial growth creates further imbalances between the rich and poor, as we see now in China and elsewhere, leading to further population explosions in the developing world as families strive to produce enough children in the hope one or two will live long enough to become rich as well and support their ageing parents. It doesn't take Einstein to see how if you extrapolate this cycle for long enough, you end up getting completely F'd in the A.

So I have gone on forever about this, but in relation to the original post I'll say this. We have to do something in order to survive, but working as a cog in the great capitalist machinery is wrong. Our species is going to find out, fairly soon I think, just how out of balance we have become with our natural origins. I think it is a fairly inevitable outcome, and given human nature we only change our ways when we are confronted with a terrible reality. My only hope is that the tumult will be sufficient to allow mankind to collectively re-evaluate its priorities and begin 'working' in a more harmonious and benevolent fashion than it has done before.

reply to post by lowki



I started scanning this thread and your perspective came into my mind right away and then I read your post. I've heard the term you describe before, but I heard it described as 'waged bondage'. I'm in the UK - the average citizen's salary runs out 8 days before the nexy paycheque is due. In 'affluent' Switzerland the cheque runs out about 5 days before the next pay day.

It's been designed that way quite intentionally. I can now go out and buy a DVD player for a tenner - but it costs almost a month's salary to pay for my quarterly domestic fuel bills. Then there's petrol, the mortgage, the housing tax (council tax here), the VAT (sales tax) now 20% in the UK, childcare costs (both parents now have to work to pay for the crazy house prices - I'm not sure that's what women's lib really had in mind when they advocated choice), food, clothing for work and then whatever's, if anything, can contribute to quality of life.

Crazily enough, we do this to ourselves by mass concensus. If we refused to play we could stop this sick game in ooooh about 18 days.

I like the sound of 'intentional communities'. It appeals to me on a very human level. It's all well and good being a participant in the 'rat race' - but we're NOT rats.

Originally posted by HomeBrew
Regardless of how you go about it, one must always 'work' for food, shelter, safety, ect. It's as natural as breathing. So, no. I do not feel it's un-natural in the slightest.

Thats true but I have to admit that I wish that sometimes it could be different. But how to make that practical, I dont know.

reply to post by GeminiSky


I am with you mate!

Once we got 100% out of what we worked for.
WE built our home and planted our fields and skinned our deer. We got out what we put in.

NOW we work for someone else and give away our earnings, time, years and soul.

I mean here is an idea.
We share our jobs with 1 or 2 others, we each work 2 days a week and have off to grow crops, hunt and build or RAISE OUR FAMILY 5 days a week.

This employs more people, shares the income and allows for social developments. BUT!!!!!!! Thats against the "nation of workers" vs "nation of thinkers"

Its also against the current system of TAKING OUR CHILDREN AWAY TO BE BRAINWASHED INTO THE SYSTEM>

I do not have children because I DO NOT WANT THEM TO BE IN THIS SYSTEM OF DEBT SLAVERY and thats what it comes down to, WE ARE DEBT SLAVES, born into debt, die with debt.

If you are born with money, you don't have to take loans and you don't have to pay back school and you get a lift in the system just by your name. UGH MAKES ME SICK. It keeps the poor poor and the rich rich.

I have 18 months left, 2012 is my change NO MATTER WHAT!

IF the world doesn't end or change, my sure will. I GIVE UP on this fracked up system and the ignorant dumb ass frack-tards that won't cut the fuse to save their life. I am over the concerns that some ignorant gang banger is going to rape my girlfriend, I am over being worried which corrupt lying sack of trash is going to get us into the next war and cause so much more pain and suffering and NEVER BE CALLED OUT ON IT OR TRIED FOR THE TREASONOUS ACTS.

MOST of all I am tired of giving my life away, my good years, my soul for corporate gains.

FRACK THIS SYSTEM!

I've been feeling this way since I entered college, and I just finished college after four and a half years. I originally studied biology and was good with the natural sciences, therefore I always felt that living off the land and doing things naturally instead of working for someone else would be the best way to go. However, there are too many powerful companies taking over the free lands, and too many people in this world competing to get a slice of that land. That's why everyone is so willing to work for it. If you want a more free and natural world, it will have to begin by bringing these companies down and maybe even eliminating most of the population. As George Carlin said, the only answer might just be, unfortunately, massive bloodshed.

You could move out to the middle of nowhere, but it's only a matter of time before that part of the world is swiped by the corporate powers.