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From Time Immermorial

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posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:16 PM
A national bestseller and a book every self proclaimed "antizionist" should read. It completely shatters the myth circulating today, of a palestinian people. But even worse, exposes the malice of the arab elite towards the 'palestinian' arab refugees.

Heres an interesting quote

"The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination" - Musa Alami, in regard to the arab refugees stranded in palestine. The myth was the idea of 'nationhood", of a palestinian culture and people.

"the image of Israel as a weak nation surrounded by enemies seeking its annihilation evaporated [after 1967] to be replaced by the image of an aggressive nation challenging world opinion" - Al Haythum Al-Ayubi

In addition to the above. In 1948-1960, around 800,000 arab born Jews - 120,000 alone from baghdad, and many more from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, and Yemen were EXPELLED from their native lands, a land their ancestors had lived for 2000 years (longer than the existence of islam), left their houses, belongings and other holdings, which were quickly swallowed up by their governments and went to Israel. This 800,000 SHOULD have been exhcnaged with the palestinian arab refugees than in camps in Israel and Lebanon, as was done plenty of times in history when the turks exchanged 1,250,000 Greeks for 355,000 Turks, or what was done in the 50's when Pakistan exchanged 8.5 million sikhs and hindus for Indias 6,000,000 muslims. There had already been many precedents of massive exchanges between peoples who shared the same language, culture and heritage. The arabs infact established the first precedent of denying the right of arab palestinians to reolcate to other arab countries like Jordan, Syria or Iraq, all three of which at the time were in desperate need of a rural workforce. Syria in the 50,s actually solicited Egypt to transport 200,000 people to work the largely undeveloped land of Syria despite the fact that teh arab refugees of palestine, held ransom by the arab governments, needed a new country to live in; where they shared the same culture and language (thats right. Arabic is the national language of the arab world, from morocco to Iraq, and the culture, and heritage of all these people is more or less the same!. Palestine is not a people, not a cutlure, but an administrative zone where infact more Jews lived in pre-Israel than Arabs)

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:20 PM

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:26 PM
Its a simple solution to a complex problem, the problem is as you stated it serves the purpose of the Arab nations to keep the Palestinians where they are and not allow them safe passage.

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:39 PM
reply to post by dontreally

Nice thread, star and flag.

You did a great job presenting your point of view, but I am not sure if I completely agree with the author. I remember hearing about this book a long time ago and there was a lot of controversy over it. I am not able to debate whether or not all of it is correct or not so I will post some of the reviews.

According to Frank Menetrez, writing in CounterPunch, “when a number of scholars examined the book carefully, they concluded that it was of no scholarly value whatsoever. It ignores important parts of the documentary record, misuses the sources on which it does rely, and contains straightforward logical errors. Consequently, according to Menetrez, "Peters’ book has been rejected as worthless by the scholarly community around the world, including Israel."

Norman Finkelstein's Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict asserts that much of Peters' scholarship was fraudulent. Finkelstein's allegations that Alan Dershowitz plagiarized Peters' book became a central issue in the Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair. Noam Chomsky defended and promoted Finkelstein's critique, commenting: [As] soon as I heard that the book was going to come out in England, I immediately sent copies of Finkelstein's work to a number of British scholars and journalists who are interested in the Middle East—and they were ready. As soon as the book [From Time Immemorial] appeared, it was just demolished, it was blown out of the water. Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn't even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. A lot of the criticism used Finkelstein's work without any acknowledgment, I should say—but about the kindest word anybody said about the book was "ludicrous," or "preposterous."

Robert Olson was among the few authors to write a critical review of the book before it was released in Britain.[7] He concluded: This is a startling and disturbing book. It is startling because, despite the author's professed ignorance of the historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict and lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history (pp. 221, 335) coupled with her limitation to sources largely in English (absolutely no Arab sources are used), she engages in the rewriting of history on the basis of little evidence. ...The undocumented numbers in her book in no way allow for the wild and exaggerated assertions that she makes or for her conclusion. This book is disturbing because it seems to have been written for purely polemical and political reasons: to prove that Jordan is the Palestinian state. This argument, long current among revisionist Zionists, has regained popularity in Israel and among Jews since the Likud party came to power in Israel in 1977.

Reviewing the book for the November 28, 1985 issue of The New York Times, Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath described the book as a "sheer forgery," stating that "n Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon."

I On January 13, 1986, Anthony Lewis, in a column for The New York Times entitled "There Were No Indians", discussed the book's reception in the United States and Israel: "Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have. Perhaps that is because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people identity. As Professor Porath says, Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history."

In the book's defense it seems that there were more positive reviews than negative. I only posted the negative ones because it seems that they were buried under the rug. If you would like to see the positive reviews just scroll up to the above section at the link I provided.

The book may have some interesting points but I feel like it may have been a propaganda campaign. That is just my opinion though, I am sure many of you will disagree.

edit on 11-2-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: spelling

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:46 PM
reply to post by lestweforget

...In order to destroy the "zionist entity"

Its all propaganda. What the arabs dont like is the intrusion of Jews into their "arab land" EVEN IF the land known as palestine is the ancient Jewish kingdom of Israel....They will mercilessly use the palestinians to destroy israel. At first, that is, before 1967, they had concentrated themselves accomplishing this through war. when they failed over and over again, they resolved to accomplish this "annihilation of Israel" through a slow and grueling process of propaganda and building a 5th column in Israeli society where the arabs would eventually become the majority, which is close to happening today with the balad party openly stating as its politcal agenda "the destruction of israel".

Doesnt that just drive you #ing crazy? As bad as the arabs are, the israeli ruling elite deserve to be put in jail for their treachery.. They BAN the Kach party, which simply called for the expulsion of refugee arabs from Israel, which infact is quite humane.. WITH compensation, much more than what the Iraqi or Egyptian governments gave to the Jews they expelled from their lands, and yet allow the Balad party to exist despite the fact that its stated goal is to destroy the Jewish identity of the state of Israel. Is that not teh same racist policy they accussed the Kach of? When in fact the Kach was seeking to DEFEND Jewish soverignty? Israels ruling elite are so bloody corrupt its sickening.

Wrap your head around that corruption!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:56 PM
reply to post by dontreally

I agree its pretty f#*ked up, corruption and deceipt all around! Each group with their own agendas and the Indoctrinated Palestinians caught in the middle with nowhere to go. I used to think Israel were doing what they had to to defend themselves, how wrong i was!

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 05:57 PM
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Have you READ the book?

It cant be propaganda when everything documented in it is simple facts recorded in documents, speeches etc. with 120 pages of strenuously recorded notes. Its anything but propaganda.

Its very dangerous to just assume that its a 'propganda campaign' because the popular opinion today is "the jews rule the world"

Set aside a day or two and read it.. The basic premise of the book is: the gulf Arab states using their oil power to extort the American/European/United nations to exaggerate the plight of the palestinians (despite the fact that they constituted just 1% of world refugees in 1950), ignore the equal refugee problem of Arab Jews which were repatriated by Israel, among other duplicities.

Even despite the factuality of that premise, its a convenient cover for a much darker, historical western and arab antipathy towards Judaism and the Jewish people.

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 06:02 PM
this is just zionist propaganda. there isn't an "american" people either. go around and say that american people don't exist and they'll lock you up. considering there are over 300 million american citizens.

as a matter of fact, palestinians arabs have more of a right on the land they are on than an american has a right on any part of n. america.

but no one is suggesting that america is not real and that all americans have to go back to the land of their ancestors.

palestinians have considered themselves palestinians before there was an israel. and the arabs living under the british mandate of palestine didn't consider themselves jordanian, syrian or lebanese.

they were palestinians. that's it. to say there isn't a palestinian people is b.s.

there are over 4 million of them under military occupation. but i guess they are figment of global imagination and don't really exist.

edit on 11-2-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 06:03 PM
reply to post by dontreally

I agree with some of what you said in your above post. But surely you must admit that it is Israel's fault for the negative image they have world wide. They are just as bad if not worse. You cannot blame criticism of Israel on an "Arab conspiracy" as you hinted. Israel has played the victim for way too long and their supporters have been getting more worried the more the world starts to realize this. Israel has lost some of their grip on the control of the mainstream media. Books like the one you referenced used to work in Israel's defense, but this type of propaganda no longer holds water.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the corrupt "Arabs" should be punished as well, I wasn't trying to turn this into a race or religion discussion, sorry if it seemed that way. I stand by my previous comment where this book is nothing more than biased propaganda, which is why I only posted the negative reviews.

edit on 11-2-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: words

edit on 11-2-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 06:17 PM
reply to post by dontreally

Here is a book that was written in shortly after the book discussed in your OP. It has some responses to "From Time Immermorial"

Blaming the Victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question, is a collection of essays, co-edited by Palestinian advocates Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens, published by Verso Books in 1988 (ISBN 0-86091-887-4). It contains essays by prominent advocates and activists including Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, Janet L. Abu-Lughod, Noam Chomsky, Norman G. Finkelstein, Christopher Hitchens, Rashid Khalidi, Edward W. Said, and others.

As I said earlier the book you mentioned does have a couple interesting points, but if you check the link I provided it seems that the book in response to the book in the OP has some valid points as well. I will leave it up to you whether or not you want to check it out.

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 06:19 PM
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

you're right, it's not the israel's fault, although, just like now, zionists were putting pressure on american politicians and presidents. anything for the jewish vote.

the real culprits are british and american arrogance. they didn't give a flying f about arabs or jews, but money talks. the whole way it was set up was a recipe for war.

they wanted to give a jewish homeland to the survivors of the holocaust and just dumped a whole people on a country. they didn't even bother consulting with local leaders and the population or try to figure out a way to relocate jews peacefully and diplomatically.

many people lost their homes and their lives. armies threw out millions of palestinians and jews moved in to nicely furnished neighbourhoods with fully stocked kitchens and probably clothes still in dressers.

that's how fast palestinians ran for their lives from british and jewish tanks.

i'm pretty sure the rothschilds had a heavy hand in this disaster.

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 08:15 PM
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

With all due respect, read the book.

People here just show a flagrant level of ignorance and yet obstinantly feel their sorely misinformed, or dim knowledge of the palestine/israel issue suffices as a legitimate opinion.

This book is so crammed with facts that completely obliterates the popular view (since '67) that its a crime against humanity (the Jewish people) to not read it. To insist that the Jewish people are in anyway culpable for their sore treatment from christians, Nazis and muslims is nothing short of sickening. Sickening because it is 2000 + years old, and still people think there must be some justifiable reason for the way others have treated them. That is sick when based on scant information.

The state of israel is a completely legitimate entity not simply because the balfour declaration says so, and not because Israel has won wars and defended their sovereignty, but because Judaism and the Jewish people before the 'haskala' - the Jewish enlightenment, were motivated by nothing but their destined return to their holy land. 850,000 Jews were expelled from muslim lands when the state of Israel came into existence. Wheres the worlds sympathy for them? No where. Because this sickening pagan liberal puppet government in Israel didnt bother to capitalize on this political advantage. They allowed the arabs to con them and the world into believign that the Jews were mistreating arabs, when in fact an equal number of Jews were callously removed from arab countries. These Jews went back to their Jewish homeland, which has cities with ancient Jewish names; like Chebron, Safed, Yerushalayim, Gerar, Sh'kem, etc. If anyone has actually BEEN to Israel they would see for themselves how it is clearly a JEWISH land by the many historical relics throughout the land with Hebrew names; the cave of the patriarchs, tomb of rachel, tomb of Joseph, tomb of Samuel, TEMPLE MOUNT etc. Type in these names and learn the truth of the Jewish peoples heritage in Israel. The fact that this is completely ignored should be enough to indicate that there is a great deal of acriomy towards the Jewish people.

Apparently people forget what the world is guilty of. The Nazis were NOT an abberation. The christians, soviets, muslims, byzantines, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Babylonians and Egyptians all did the same thing; just on a smaller scale. Hitler was no different from Arafat. Their hate of Jews is based on nothing other than their hate for Judaism. The above does not happen by accident. These above groups were aware of the Torah and Tanakh and despised its world historical program, and so have made it their mission to eliminate everyone single Jew. To their dismay im sure, theyre still around, despite 2500 years of extirmination attempts. Also, did you know in Arab countries, like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, among others, they still tout the long disproven blood libel as real? They'll scream to theuir followers "these jews kill arab children and make passover matzah with their blood", and the people filled with bloodlust bombard Jewish communities and kill countless numbers of Jews, as was done in damascus in 1844, and of course as was done in france in the 15th century. There are people who think this is true, despite how egregiously incompatible that claim is with Jewish beliefs, as found in the Bible, Talmud, Midrash, and the Hebrew Seder (prayer book). It is SICKENING that any person would be so stupid to believe such a claim, and KILL OTHER PEOPLE based on nothing more than hearsay.

And whats so unbeleivable about arab complicity or collusion? Have you even read what a dhimmi is? What it would be like for a non muslim to live in a muslim country? Read up on it. No lamenting in front of arabs lest it disturb them. You cant enjoy anything considered regal, or noble, lest a dhimmi be thought equal to a muslim. Jews couldnt ride horses in arab countries. They were forced to clean the streets on the sabbath. In morocco Jewish woman were forced to wear one white shoe and one black shoe, like a clown. In Yemen Jews had to give over property if a muslim asked for it, and if a Jew G-d forbid got on a Muslims bad side, they could be accused of anything deemed illicit by muslim law and killed, which was quite common for muslims to do to Jews and Christians living in Muslim lands.

Islam, is so far from being a religion os peace it is sickening taht any liberal would mindlessly echo this talking point without seeking to verify it for themselves. Its actually quite easy to disprove. Islam was actually compared by the late psychoanalyst CG Jung as being the new Nazism. He knew back in the '50's that this religion was poised to inherit Nazisms war against the Jews. Unlike the Nazis however, their fervant hatred result even in them blowing themselves up,.

I am not against Islam, as there are moderate and peaceful muslims. However, politicized islam as dictated in the Quran and Hadith is imperialistic and a total nightmare to any non muslim to live under.

Do not defend Islam when they are as guilty of subterfuge and evil as the imperialist catholic church is. Both of these groups are political bodies with political agendas and lying is their modus operandi. They are indeed scheming against the Jews as this amazingly and assiduously researched book shows.

Im not saying Israel isnt gilty of human rights abuses. But than again, no country on earth is either. And Israel to a much lesser extant to America, China, Sudan, etc.

And as for refugees. All i need say is look at the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after world war 2. 12 MILLION were kicked out of lands they had lived in for hundreds of years. Did the world complain when that happened? OF course NOT! They were an enemy of the state and were a 5th wheel in polish and Czech society. They caused the deaths of millions of innocents poles. They were kicked out and deserved to be kicked out. Just like todays Palestinians dserve to be kicked out of Israel and incorporated into nations which actually SHARE their heritage - language, religion and culture.

People need to get it through their heads that Israel is a country and its lands are theres. Infact, the Sinai rightfully belongs to Israel. Egypt was given it on a promise of peace which they continuously undermine by inciting Jew hatred in their newspapers.

posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 09:00 PM
reply to post by dontreally

This book is so crammed with facts that completely obliterates the popular view (since '67) that its a crime against humanity (the Jewish people) to not read it.

I never once used the word "Jew". I used the word Israeli. It just so happens that the Zionists in power are Jewish. That is a non issue to me, you seem very desperate due to your need to repeat the word "Jew" over and over.

My whole original point was about the book in your OP being full of lies. I was not criticizing any religion. Do I have to remind you to stay on topic on your own thread?
edit on 11-2-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 02:15 AM
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

My whole original point was about the book in your OP being full of lies.

Coming from the guy who hasnt even read thebook.

I was overall diagnosing the mentality that plagues people like you. Content to think "its probably a propaganda campaign" and completely cool to leave it at that.

I did somewhat derail my thread but i did so for a reason. In anycase, you have changed your tone quite quickly. you went from "propaganda campagn" to it being "a book of lies", without even having read that book. That is pretty unreasonable, is it not?

Its a 600 page book and each chapter is crammed with tidbits of information, SOURCED to documents, speeches. 120 pages worth of notes. The acclamation it recieved is due to nothing less than its merit. Aside from that, its message hasnt really affected the liberal media which still propogates the same lies and propganda about Israel. The UN still inflates numbers and treats israel with a double standard. So, i dont get how its a propaganda campaign. The book is aimed at intellectuals. People who dont like reading will suffice with what they read at a website or a video..if it gives them a sense of self importance.

I mentioned the above to elucidate the gravity of the condition that confronts mankind today. Many are completely ok to peddle the common belief of a "zionist" conspiracy against mankind, which is both equally levelled against the Jews from racist white supremacists, ignorant liberals and jihadist muslims.

I again mentioned what i did to point out that Israels existence is biblical, and not racial. Any person can convert to Judaism, become a Jew and be eligible to immigrate to Israel. The problem again is the severe lack of knowledge of what zionism is. People dont make any discrimination between the biblical notion of Zion: since it is a Hebrew word couched in mystical and philosophical ideas, and the modern political zionism. The former is SECULAR, and a complete and utter mockery of what the real concept of zion is (to explain: the Hebrew word zion means "marker", and refers to the temple mount which is meant to be the "mark" where G-ds holy temple is built. Zion represents the point of connection between the spiritual and physical. The 'mockery' in political zionism adopting this name and commandering the role of leader of the Jewish people, is that it seeks to SEPARATE man from G-d. Modern Israeli society is completely atheistic. of the 800,000 Sephardic families who were largely religious who moved to Israel, all of them were forced to put their children in atheistic kibbutz, enrole them in public schools, otherwise they would be denied jobs. The children would than be indoctrinated in the ethos of atheism and cnsumerism and become what they are today; "Israelis" who can care less about being Jews... made in the mold of their atheistic programmers) whereas the latter is religous. People dont sense a difference and probably dont care. Theyre content with being with the majority not worrying about all those pesky 'details'....

The details are what this book relates. It explains how the Israel/Palestine conflict came to be, an like irelated above, it began with lies upon lies perpetuated by the Arabs assisted by the British and UN. They inflated refugee numbers, ignored the similar Jewish refugee problem (which is almost completely unknown today. im sure you didnt know that 850,000 Arab born sephardic Jews were expelled from Arab countries and became "refugees". Did you also know that Yemen refused their Jews to leave Yemen? Do you know how demeaning it was for a Jew to live in Yemen? do you think these Shiites wanted their Jew bitches (harsh, but they claim ownership of Jews in these countries) out of their reaches? This led to operation magic carpet where Israel literally flew to yemen and took out their Jews.

So dont tell me the book is full of lies. I am well read in this area and you yourself can barely someone evidence to defend your point. Only insisting in your prejudice that "its probably propaganda" or now, its all lies.

If you have any shred of honesty (and given your stephen harper avatar, i am not very confident you have much) you would read the book and assess the prodigious amount of evidence for yourself.

posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:22 AM
reply to post by dontreally

There are many people with impressive credentials that call this book a farce. Just because you believed the propaganda in that awful book you mentioned does not mean it is true. You can twist the facts any way you like, but it does not change the fact that the Israelis are the aggressors and the Palestinians are the victims. Deep down you know this is true which is you are so defensive when I point it out.

Deny ignorance...

posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:25 AM
reply to post by dontreally

he details are what this book relates. It explains how the Israel/Palestine conflict came to be, an like irelated above, it began with lies upon lies perpetuated by the Arabs assisted by the British and UN.

That is the second time in this thread you blame the Israeli/Palestine "conflict". I am trying to be non biased and input some relevant information in this thread, but I am finding it very difficult to take you and your opinions seriously. I will leave now. There is no use trying to use logic or reason with you since you seem to have your head in the sand.

Have a good weekend.
edit on 12-2-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 09:07 AM
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Buddy. Youre currently arguing asbout a book you havent even read, based on someone elses opinions!

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