800,000 Jobs Gone: CBO Admits Health Care Law Will Kill Jobs

* that's the title from one of the sites I linked to ..

The Congressional Budget Office now says the new Health Care Laws will kill 800,000 jobs.
Um ... no kidding. I'm thinking that number is rather low, but that's the one they gave.
The small business folks in town that I've talked to say it'll kill 'em. (their business)
They'll have to let people go. They can't afford it.

Weekly Standard - CBO Director Says Obamacare Would Reduce Employment by 800,000 Workers
CBO Head says Obamacare will Kill 800,000 Jobs
Youtube found here

Here we go again:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e49475adc43c.jpg[/atsimg]
First and foremost the job loss projection represents roughly ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT and that projected total is over TEN YEARS (2021) Rather than my usual search for erudite facts to dispel this aberration, I’ll just quote a couple of astute comments from linked source.

Typical Blaze crap. The CBO guy DID NOT say universal health care would “kill jobs.” That is nonsence. What he said was that if people can get reasonably price health insurance, some will reduce their working hours below the point where they would otherwise lose insurance from their employer. And people who are working only to get insurance, might quit.
The jobs are still there. Not one job is lost. Some people would work less or quit altogether. –JZS

This is a distortion of what the CBO said. This is what is in the actual CBO report–
“The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that the legislation, on net, will reduce the amount of labor used in the economy by a small amount—roughly half a percent—primarily by reducing the amount of labor that workers choose to supply. That net effect reflects changes in incentives in the labor market that operate in both directions: Some provisions of the legislation will discourage people from working more hours or entering the workforce, and other provisions will encourage them to work more. Moreover, many people will be unaffected by those provisions and will face the same incentives regarding work as they do under current law.”
Basically, the CBO is saying that some people right now are working mostly to keep their health insurance. Once they have other options — to enroll in Medicaid, or to qualify for tax breaks to buy insurance from a health exchange — they might choose to work less. The CBO describes this as a “small segment” of the population. And, because the CBO is describing REDUCED HOURS rather than lost jobs, it never uses the 650,000 number that the Republican document cites. The Republican extrapolated that number from the CBO’s estimate of one-half percent of the labor supply.
Finally, a person who voluntarily chooses to work less is not having their job “killed” by federal legislation. -Laughing Dingo

Hey look something shiny. Honestly, if peeps would consider all the data presented they would deduce that this projected amount is rather insignificant when carried over 10 years. But that would require critical thinking vs. knee-jerk reactions to purposely misleading headlines. Whatever happened to denying ignorance?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Everything the government touches is laid to waste and needs a bail out plan. So yes i can see this happening

Like they say if the government was in charge of the mojave desert within a given time period there would not be a ounce of sand left,as the government would have it litigated, loaned, or leveraged on worthless t-notes

reply to post by kinda kurious

Hey look something shiny. Honestly, if peeps would consider all the data presented they would deduce that this projected amount is rather insignificant when carried over 10 years. But that would require critical thinking vs. knee-jerk reactions to purposely misleading headlines. Whatever happened to denying ignorance?

I DID the critical thinking. Obamacare has at least two job killers I know of.

The simple one first:
A small business must carry health care if it has 50 employees or more. This means we put a cap on the growth of small business. The statistics I could find were:

8.5 million employees for Firms with 10 to 19 employees
20.5 million employees for Firms with 20 to 99 employees

The big question is are the small companies going to bother to grow and are the slightly larger firms going to lay off to get under the 50 employee limit. The number of people out of the 20.5 million that get laid off could be significant and I doubt it will only be 800,000.

The reason is the profit margin on most small businesses are about 5% net, given the crappy economy it may not be even that much because sales have fallen off and you can not raise prices even though the wholesale price went up. Downsizing or risk going out of business maybe the only choices.

THAT was the easy part.
Now comes the harder problem.

The December 2010 issue of the trade journal Tax Notes Today quotes Richard Skorny, former IRS deputy[..]ociate chief information officer, as saying the health-care law's implementation "will be bigger than Y2K for the IRS to implement...

Health-reform’s new 1099 requirement says small businesses, charities, even government entities must issue 1099 forms to all vendors from whom they purchased more than $600 worth of goods and services a year...

The Taxpayer Advocate also notes the new 1099 form could create a huge paper tsunami at the IRS. At least 38 million taxpayers will be subject to the new requirement, including 26 million who run sole proprietorships, two million farming businesses and one million charities, Olson says in a June report, based on IRS data....

And Olson says she is worried about taxpayer mistakes, IRS mismatches and erroneous penalties. Olson also says that “the IRS has authority to impose monetary penalties against businesses that fail to file information reports...

SMC Business Councils, a top small business group in Pennsylvania, says it surveyed its members and discovered that a typical small business in the state currently sends an average of 10 1099 filings a year. But the new rules would blow out that average to more than 200 filings a year....

slumz.boxden.com...

But that is just the tip of the iceberg!

There are 19,523,741 one person businesses and 25,392,478 small businesses in the USA. The 2002 census said that MOST of the 19.5 million one person businesses were sole prop. This means they are not incorporated and therefore their business does not have a separate tax number. The file their business taxes under their SSN and therefore are subject to identity theft. Some of the other small businesses are also not incorporated because it is blasted expensive and Accountants charge you extra if you are incorporated (Been there done that) www.census.gov...

Here are the three biggest problems I see outside of the paperwork problem:

1. Businesses especially the larger businesses like Sam's Club/Walmart, Office Max, and Home depot refuse to give out their business tax number. This will shut down a lot of small businesses who rely on these big chains for supplies.

2. Scam artists will start up "small businesses" and use them to collect SS# with addresses and names and then sell or use them.

3. On top of all that Sales Clerks, Hotel registration clerks, Gas station attentants all will have to be trained to handle the request for 1099 data. Every salesman and any one who fills out an expense report will also have to get tax number, name and address. Any of these people can make a mistake in reporting the correct information. Then you have Small businesses, afraid to release their SS#, provide false SS#'s or someone makes a copying mistake.

If you have ONE number incorrect it means the IRS will demand you go into withholding for EVERYONE you use a 1099 for. Again been there done that. One false SS# will trigger an IRS demand for withholding on ALL SS# since the IRS will not give out who supplied the false SS#. You now have to file a lot more forms quarterly AND pay withholding.

This is where things get really really complicated. You already paid full price so how do you withhold the amount? The next year how do you convince your suppliers you have to discount what you pay them for goods and services because you have to withhold 28% of the full price. As a vendor 28% is NOT the amount of tax you pay since you deduct operating expenses. You now have to figure out how much tax was paid on your behalf AND you have to figure out if that tax was actually paid by comparing the 1099's you recieved vs your actual receipts and hope like crazy no one is lying as you not they are responsible for paying the tax.

It is one big FRACKEN mess and no one knows what the heck the ramifications are going to be on the US economy. But there WILL be ramifications. and the loss of 800,000 jobs will be a drop in the bucket compared to the real loss. Couple this mess with the new regulations on farming thanks to the Food Safety Law just passed and if we do not see a major down turn in 2012 in an already rotten economy I will eat a goat! (Both laws hit in 2012)

Forbes: More FDA Authority Won't Improve Food Safety
The Tester "Small Farm" Exemption to S.510 Exposed as a Scam

reply to post by FlyersFan


What a load of garbage! Both of your sources are using comments taken completely out of text and totally distorted the actual intent of the testimony. Do you really expect us to accept crap answers like; "Yes..." as a true reflection of the situation.

"Kinda Kurious" hit the nail on the head with regards to your thread. You might have better luck selling these lies to some other group of gullible fools like a republicans.

reply to post by kinda kurious


Whew...glad you beat me to this one...I'm too tired to refute more lies and distortions today.


OP...why do you distort and mislead so much?

Cherry picking and taking things out of context is exactly what some sources are missioned to do. The plan is to get the disinformation out there to such a wide degree (make it go viral) that it become virtually impossible for the average citizen to find out the facts without spending huge amounts of time that the average person just doesn't have to spend. It is also placed to alarm and anger people to further shut down any rational discussion. This is a total disservice to both this undertaking and the nation as a whole. We will never be able to agree or find a fair and actual solution as long as this kind of BS keeps being propagated.

Time for it to STOP. Especially here. Discuss the points but stop with the regurgitation of someone else's opinion. Any idiot can do the Google and find that.

CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf told the House Budget Committee on Thursday that the health care law will reduce employment by 0.5 percent by 2021 because some people will no longer have to work just to afford health insurance.

“That means that if the reduction in the labor used was workers working the average number of hours in the economy and earning the average wage, that there would be a reduction of 800,000 workers,” Elmendorf said in an exchange with Rep. John Campbell (R-CA).

Read more: www.politico.com...

True? Or just spin to the opposite side of the court?

reply to post by FlyersFan

....The small business folks in town that I've talked to say it'll kill 'em. (their business) They'll have to let people go. They can't afford it.....

I have had similar conversations. There are a lot of very worried small business people out there. My spouse and I would sale out and retire to another country ASAP if the economy wasn't so bad.

I am afraid a lot of older small business people like us will give up and just get out and close their doors. When the government all of a sudden adds fines and jail terms to the cost of doing business it is time to rethink staying in business.

One other factor everyone misses.

The definition of "Capitalism" is taking your wealth and reinvesting it to make more wealth. When a lot of your wealth is spent on complying with various regulations, the wealth is dissipated. It does not produce more wealth it waste time and paper and makes us just that much less competitive with China.

Unfortunately, from the comments I have read here it seems ONLY small business people can see what is going to happen. Everyone else still has their rose colored glasses on.

To give you an idea of how bad it is they are about to sell The New York Stock Exchange!

To make matters worse:

In an effort to position himself as a business-friendly moderate ahead of 2012’s presidential election, current White House occupant Barack Obama has reshuffled his staff...

...as head of the National Economic Council, Obama brought in Gene Sperling, who held the same position in the Clinton administration...in the 1990s Sperling worked behind the scenes to secure the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

"He supported fundamentals of the Clinton administration policies which were really wrongheaded," Dean Baker, co-director of the liberal Center for Economic and Policy Research, told The Washington Post.

By the time Sperling moved up to take over the NEC, he was working on China’s entry into the World Trade Organization, an event which caused millions of manufacturing jobs in U.S. to be permanently lost.

With Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel back in Chicago.. the president brought in.. William Daley, a former Clinton administration official and banker.

Daley too was instrumental in the passage of NAFTA and China’s entry into the WTO. During the debate over NAFTA, he served as a special council to the president. His only responsibility during that time was ensuring that the trade deal passed.

After delivering the trade pact that cost America 20 percent of its manufacturing jobs in just 14 years, Daley moved on to serve as Clinton’s Commerce Secretary from 1997-2000. During that time, he helped pave the way for China’s entry into the WTO.

Jeffery Immelt was tapped to lead a newly created Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.

Immelt, who will now have the president’s ear in an advisory role, has consistently supported the same failed trade policies that have cost America millions of jobs. As the leader of one of the world’s largest companies, he has been at the forefront of the outsourcing movement...

In the past, Immelt was a vocal supporter for China’s entry into the World Trade Organization. He also spoke out against the proposed “buy American” provision.

Immelt, Daley and Sperling certainly do not represent the “change” the president was fond of referring to in 2008. In fact, all three represent more of the same - failed trade policies that result in the loss of millions of jobs.

Sperling also played a major role in repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial and investment banking. Many observers credit the act’s repeal with causing the financial crisis that brought the economy to its knees. www.economyincrisis.org...

Is Obama working in the Chinese government or in the American government. With these three appointees it makes you wonder.

I think we are REALLY REALLY royally F***ED Time to kiss your donkey good by.

I´m still trying to figure out what will happen to our (Germans) Economy if everything is going to Hell in America. Not sure when the Euro will die,but it seems the Dollar is the first to go...

reply to post by crimvelvet


I appreciate your reply and do feel you have presented a strong case to support your beliefs. However I must say that you are overlooking some major advantages as to why it makes sense for businesses/employers to offer healthcare benefits.

The current economic downturn has created a situation of skewed supply and demand for skilled workers in that there is an abundance of workers willing to work for reduced wages and benefits. However going forward as the economy regains momentum companies will need to offer benefits to attract skilled employees as that supply shrinks. (Some greedy American companies have adopted a "sweat-shop" mentality offering low wages, long hours and no benefits.) This has largely been fueled by reluctance to raise minimum wage by Republicans and the vilification of unions which promote worker safety, equality and living wages programs.

More importantly, a healthy worker is a more productive worker. Someone who is receiving regular medical care is more likely to establish a healthier lifestyle. (nutrition, exercise and smoking cessation) These workers are less likely to miss work due to health issues or injury which equates to higher productivity and yields profit to bottom line.


I am confused by this concept:

Originally posted by crimvelvet
Businesses especially the larger businesses like Sam's Club/Walmart, Office Max, and Home depot refuse to give out their business tax number. This will shut down a lot of small businesses who rely on these big chains for supplies.

As a small business owner, I do not pay tax on items for resell. (Only the end user pays tax) I am tax exempt on those items. I don't get THEIR Tax Exempt ID #, THEY GET MINE. Perhaps I'm not clear on your point or you are not clear on the rules. Why would a purchaser require their Tax ID?

I look forward to the benefit of your reply.

I'm really not that well read on this subject at all. But.....800,000. that just sounds over the top and exaggerated.
I don't know.

Originally posted by kinda kurious
Whatever happened to denying ignorance?

Best look in the mirror when repeating that line.

Originally posted by Flatfish
You might have better luck selling these lies to some other group of gullible fools like a republicans.

Partisan much? Too bad you refuse to see the truth in matters when it runs counter to your political leanings.

Originally posted by MindSpin
OP...why do you distort and mislead so much?

Your problem is that I continually plow you under by using truth and facts... all over the board.
Can't handle that these facts come from the CBO, eh? tsk tsk tsk

Originally posted by randyvs
.....800,000. that just sounds over the top and exaggerated..

Actually, it sounded rather low to me.


All this whining .... best take up your complaints with the Congressional Budget Office. The FACTS came from them. THEY are the ones that came up with the number. I didn't make it up. Beck didn't make it up. Bush43 didn't make it up. ______ (fill in your republican boogeyman of choice) didn't make it up. These are FACTS from the Congressional Budget Office. Learn to get over your left leaning bias and embrace the truth of the situation.

Obamacare is unsustainable. Obamacare is a job killer. Obamacare causes small business to lay off and to go under. Obamacare is too expensive for larger business and groups .. thus WAIVERGATE. Hundreds and hundreds of waivers for business' and groups because they can't afford Obamacare. If those waivers weren't issued, then there would be even more jobs lost. Ask McDonalds. Red Lobster, Olive Garden, TGI Fridays, Regis Hair Salons, DISH networks, Aetna, etc etc etc

The numbers would be even worse without the hundreds of comapnies getting waivers.
And with the waivers, Obamacare is even more unsustainable. It takes EVERYONE to be
in it to make it work.

That's the truth. Learn to deal with it.

They jumped ship when they had to fit the bill for insuring its workforce so like typical scum and slime they truly are they are abandoning the nation one by one. This is where jobs are, demand that a job pays your medical.

reply to post by kinda kurious

As a small business owner, I do not pay tax on items for resell. (Only the end user pays tax) I am tax exempt on those items. I don't get THEIR Tax Exempt ID #, THEY GET MINE. Perhaps I'm not clear on your point or you are not clear on the rules. Why would a purchaser require their Tax ID?

Sorry I did not explain that well enough I guess.

Obamacare included a two sentence change to the tax code .Formerly the 1099 was a form commonly used to report the income of freelancers and consultants to the IRS. If one of the freelancers cheats and gives you the WRONG number, the IRS response is to demand withholding occur for ALL freelancers and consultants you use from then on. I am speaking from bitter experience on this. The IRS WILL not give you the name of the cheater.

1099 USE has been EXPANDED

With just a few short sentences in the 2010 health care act, the IRS form 1099-Misc just became the most important tax form in existence.

Starting after December 31, 2011, the 1099 will function as a tax form for ALL business to business transactions of over $600.

Yes, for each and every b2b sale or combination of sales worth more than $600, each party will have to collect information about the other and submit a 1099 to both the parties involved and the IRS.

So, if your business were to purchase a laptop from WalMart for $600, you would have to fill out a 1099 form.

Please tell everyone else in business you know about this change to the tax law so it does not catch them flat footed when they go to file their 2012 Income Tax.

reply to post by kinda kurious

However I must say that you are overlooking some major advantages as to why it makes sense for businesses/employers to offer health care benefits.

I saved this till last because the answer is much more complicated.

First out of 25,409,525 firms in the USA only 17,047 are classified as "large businesses" So you are talking about a large segment of the 25 million small businesses having to carry health care by law. Just because someone is running a business does not make that business or person wealthy. As a matter of fact I can pretty much guarantee that the businesses are left in the USA are NOT wealthy.

The reason I can guarantee that is because any well run "wealthy" business where the owner did not keep 51 percent of the stock was the subject of a leveraged buyout since the 1980's. Since Venture Capitalists usually demand a controlling interest (51%) in any business they bankroll and since banks are loath to invest in small business, owners usually can not keep that 51% controlling interest.

LEVERAGED BUYOUTS

Sorry this is long but if you do not understand and see the scope of the problem you can not see that it is the slow death of the USA, and I am VERY serious about that.

to start: in 1990,before WTO was ratified, Foreign ownership of U.S. assets amounted to 33% of U.S. GDP. By 2002 this had increased to over 70% of U.S. GDP. www.fame.org...

DEFINITION:

Leveraged buyouts involve an investor, financial sponsors or private equity firms making large acquisitions without committing all the capital required for the acquisition. To do this, a financial sponsor will raise acquisition debt which is ultimately secured upon the acquisition target... en.wikipedia.org...

In other words the investor is placing a mortgage on property he does not OWN!!!

This is not moral or ethical and given what happened during the Great Depression, I would be very surprised if laws were not enacted to prevent it. SO - Where the heck was CONGRESS. Where the heck were the COURTS when this was going on??? Where the HECK was Obama and the democrats??? If you want to do one single thing to help America get back on her feet OBAMA??? Then Declare Leveraged Buyouts ILLEGAL. They are certainly immoral and very destructive to the country.

If you want to know what the US government did about it...

...In January 1982, former US Secretary of the Treasury William Simon and a group of investors acquired Gibson Greetings, a producer of greeting cards, for $80 million, of which only $1 million was rumored to have been contributed by the investors. By mid-1983, just sixteen months after the original deal, Gibson completed a $290 million IPO and Simon made approximately $66 million. The success of the Gibson Greetings investment attracted the attention of the wider media to the nascent boom in leveraged buyouts.[10] Between 1979 and 1989, it was estimated that there were over 2,000 leveraged buyouts valued in excess of $250 billion... en.wikipedia.org...

The big question is WHO profited from "eating the seed corn"

Remember every single dollar the bankers loan out whether it is to the US Government, business, or home owner is created on the spot. In other words it is legalized COUNTERFEITING. The byproduct of all this money printing was the increase of the money supply from $60.5 billion in 1966 to $2016 billion in Dec 2010 AND it caused the minimum wage to rise from $1.00 to $7.25. (My Mom in the thirties was paid 25 cents an hour and that was considered a very generous wage for an office manager)

....These days, corporations seem to exist for the investment bankers.... In fact, investment banks are replacing the publicly held industrial corporations as the largest and most powerful economic institutions in America.... THERE ARE SIGNS THAT A VICIOUS spiral has begun, as each corporate player seeks to improve its standard of living at the expense of another's. Corporate raiders transfer to themselves, and other shareholders, part of the income of employees by forcing the latter to agree to lower wages. January 29, 1989 New York Times: LEVER AGED BUYOUTS: AMERICAN PAYS THE PRICE

Reagan - facilitate Leveraged buyouts/Hostile takeovers

....Both economic and regulatory factors combined to spur the explosion in large takeovers and, in turn, large LBOs. The three regulatory factors were the Reagan administration's relatively laissez-faire policies on antitrust and securities laws, which allowed mergers the government would have challenged in earlier years; the 1982 Supreme Court decision striking down state antitakeover laws (which were resurrected with great effectiveness in the late eighties); and deregulation of many industries, which prompted restructurings and mergers. The main economic factor was the development of the original-issue high-yield debt instrument. The so-called "junk bond" innovation, pioneered by Michael Milken of Drexel Burnham, provided many hostile bidders and LBO firms with the enormous amounts of capital needed to finance multi-billion-dollar deals.... www.econlib.org...

...In the 1980s during the great takeover boom and hollowing out of the industrial heartland, many states adopted amendments to their corporate codes that codified directors' fiduciary duties, so-called "constituency statutes". In general, these provisions made it clear that a director need not "maximize shareholder value." Rather, in complying with their fiduciary obligations, directors may take all sorts of things into consideration - the impact of their decisions on various constituencies, including employees, the community, the environment, the color of the sky, whatever...

The 1980s LBO boom was a scourge for management. They used whatever tools at their disposal to prevent an acquisition... The Delaware courts stepped in... In short, the message from the courts was that boards did not have a free hand to put off all takeover attempts... [remember many firms are incorporated in delaware because of business friendly laws] lawprofessors.typepad.com...

Leveraged Buyouts are still going on

‘Whitewashed Windows and Vacant Stores’

As I drive around my town, I can’t get the lyrics or somber melody out of my head. It is like witnessing old friends drop dead one by one....

And, it isn’t just small enterprises. We lost a Circuit City, a Chevrolet dealership, tried-and-true franchises like Dairy Queen and Arby’s. Last week Sam’s Club announced it will close its local big box bulk store. Then came news that Wal-Mart, the parent company, intends to lay off 10,000 Sam’s Club Employees. Even the ubiquitous 99 cent stores have been cut in half....

So, the businesses that provided jobs are gone, the office and retail space sits vacant, likely in default. The windows get broken, the walls get tagged, the weeds grow, trash blows, and, with no one to stop it, nature begins the process of permanent destruction. The value of those businesses and real estate is now gone.

Once Wall Street realized that success can only be so profitable but failure has unlimited potential, the race was on to loan money and securitize the debt.

Just like sub-prime residential mortgages, commercial real estate financing and corporate raiding offer opportunities on many fronts. Private-equity groups bought up large retailers and buried them in debt. Leveraged buyouts, as their name implies, are exactly that, leveraged, in that most if not all of the purchase price is borrowed money. The buyer has little, if any, skin in the game.

You might be familiar with the mall-based, teen-focused, accessories chain, Claire’s Stores. It was taken over in 2007 by Apollo Management LP for $3.1 billion. At the time, the chain had over $245 million in cash on hand. Today, the cash is gone. Struggling under the weight of $2.3 billion in debt, sales continue to decline.

Underlying all of this are the same activities that led to losses in sub-prime residential equities. Money was looking for a home, and some investors saw that cash could be leveraged out of these enterprises by buying them with someone else’s money and looting the assets....

So there is your answer.
Any health American business will be the target of the leverage-buyout Vultures. Afterwards the business is cash strapped and has to cut benefits and wages to stay in business... IF they stay in business. Every company I have worked for no longer exists. It has been boxed up and shipped overseas.

Is it time to get outraged about health care reform again? I expected such posts to start showing up in the blogs and conservative leaning forums shortly before they start voting on it. I guess jobs are the in word for such things this year. It seems the favorite words and phrases of years past such as patriotic, family, think of the children, socialist, and anti terrorism are not the current hot words to use for spinning data.

Though, using realistic terminology would never go over well with the American public. Just think if they tried to use "think of the insurance executives who may see their bonuses stagnate with the Health Care Reform law" as their rallying cry. Can you imagine an ad showing a sad executive having to drive a two year old Mercedes and only have one vacation a year due to health care reform reducing their corporate profits. A close up with a tear going down his face would be perfect.

Amazingly though, you never see mentioned in such things the real impact of our current health system on Americans, Those that don't have health insurance and those that discover their providers won't pay but a fraction of the large hospital bills due to any loophole they can find. Nor do you see mentioned the impact of the high health costs redistributing wealth from the majority of Americans to a relative few in our society. Which has a negative effect on demand and helps to hold down growth outside the health care industry.

Though, I suppose we aren't suppose to think about such things. Just grab onto the phrase that suppose to outrage us and gather our pitchforks and torches while those manipulating us laugh heartily.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You can attempt to twist the truth any way you want to, but in reality it is what it is. I think you may have spent too much time inside the wire wheel with your hamsters and your brain is starved for oxygen.

Why do you take out-of-text comments and try to twist them into something they are not? If you're so confident that your perspective is correct, then why don't don't you post the comments in their entirety as opposed to snippets? You remind me of FNC and the "death panels" and all that crap.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I will read every shred of info so your toil was not wasted on me. But it will require some time which I am currently strapped for. At first blush, it appears the root of the problem is in a word - GREED. If so, on that we can agree.

reply to post by kinda kurious

At first blush, it appears the root of the problem is in a word - GREED. If so, on that we can agree.

Not only greed but the deliberate transfer of wealth from the American people to the International Banking Cartel that runs the Federal Reserve and runs our government.

The more I read the more I develop a deep hatred for those (self snip) Banksters.