ATS temperature on same sex marriage

Originally posted by NthOther
The real question is why government licenses are necessary in the first place. Marriage licenses, in the US, were originally intended to prevent interracial marriage. It had nothing to do with "sanctity". Once the government realized they could use it as a method of social control, they also saw they could make a lot of money charging fees for the licenses.

It's not really about who can get married and who can't--marriage is an abstract interpersonal commitment--it's about who can get a license to benefit from the legal jungle they've set up to regulate the transfer of property and the custody of children.

Simply put, the government has no legitimate business in defining or regulating interpersonal relationships whatsoever. Its motivation is nefarious at best, and downright evil at worst.

Everyone - read the above again. There is nothing else to be said about this topic.
Thank you for dressing your thoughts into a language.

Originally posted by BiggyMcBigPants
reply to post by Annee

 

Alright, I see your point in regards to semantics and also agree that words and their meanings can change over time. However, at the same time, the meaning of both civil unions and marriage can also evolve from this point forward and will and that evolving could lead to an acceptance of civil unions as the standard for government sanctioned relationships. Or something like that.

Above all though, just level the playing field. Not allowing gays and lesbians to marry is just wrong.

I'm just gonna repeat. We've done the Jim Crow laws. Equal but separate is NOT OK.

Full equality - - everyone using the exact same terminology. Marriage for every person. As on the secular government license "Marriage".

reply to post by youdidntseeme


My thoughts on this are similar to the OP’s. I’ve never had a problem with civil unions and things of that nature, but at one point I, for whatever reason, seemed to get hung up on the marriage issue. I thought of marriage as a Christian thing, which is stupid to begin with because I myself am not a Christian. Maybe I thought of Christianity as a club, and a club can make their own rules. If you don’t want to follow the rules, you don’t have to be a part of the club. That argument however, holds no water when you consider that not all marriages are performed in a Christian manner. If fact a lot of wedding ceremonies have little or nothing to do with religion at all. A lot of them are simply between two people who are committing themselves to each other. I know when I get married, the term “In the eyes of god” will not play a role. All that being said, at this point I wouldn’t have a problem with gay marriage even if it’s done inside a church in a Christian ceremony. Even though some people’s initial reaction is to frown upon gay marriage, when you really ponder it, there isn’t one good reason to not allow it. Live and let live, and if you truly feel it’s wrong, then fine, turn the other cheek. Isn’t that what the church teaches, judge not? The bottom line is that if you’re not gay, it isn’t really any of your business. No one is making you go out and participate in it. Not to mention, the amount of hate that spews from this topic surely isn’t what your church teaches.
Lastly, I find it funny how there are all these negative stereotypes regarding the gay lifestyle. Such as being overly promiscuous with their sex life, for example. Although when people see two gay people who love and are committed to each other, they have a problem with that as well. Damned if you do/ Damned if you don’t kind of thing. If someone buys into the stereotypes, they hate gay people for those reasons. If a gay couple shatters the stereotype and shows that their lifestyle is as normal as the next guy’s, they hate them for that as well.

To me, a marriage is two people that are commited to each other and want to spend their lives together. The last thing I think they consider, is politics

Originally posted by WhateverHappens
To me, a marriage is two people that are commited to each other and want to spend their lives together. The last thing I think they consider, is politics

I had that idealist idea when I was 20.

I'm smarter now.

The only time I see this issue rise in Chicago is when they have the Gay Pride Parade, and how can I take anything they say serious when they are dry humping each other on floats in ass less chaps screaming "we're here, were queer, Get use to it, kissing each other half naked with feathers on their heads while holding signs that say legalize gay marriage?

reply to post by youdidntseeme


AMERICAN IS THE ONLY LABEL FOR A PERSON I CARE ABOUT.


A person should be able to love, and marry anyone they want be they same sex or different. EQUAL RIGHTS means for all people, not just certain sexual orientations, all people are created equal, be they gay, strait, bi, trans-gendered or other. Besides even if you don't agree with it, why fight it?....let them merry who they damn well please, they're AMERICAN, and thats the only label I care about.

reply to post by hapablab


Because you take it completely out of context. You are generalizing the gay/lesbian/trans/queer community by assuming that everyone is an assless chap wearing clown. There is just as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community. Conservatives to Completely Out There.

Originally posted by hapablab
The only time I see this issue rise in Chicago is when they have the Gay Pride Parade, and how can I take anything they say serious when they are dry humping each other on floats in ass less chaps screaming "we're here, were queer, Get use to it, kissing each other half naked with feathers on their heads while holding signs that say legalize gay marriage?

Have you been to the gay parade - - or is this an opinion from what you see in the media?

Do you feel the same way about Mardi Gras?

Originally posted by Dendro
reply to post by hapablab

 

Because you take it completely out of context. You are generalizing the gay/lesbian/trans/queer community by assuming that everyone is an assless chap wearing clown. There is just as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community. Conservatives to Completely Out There.

That's my experience. Just people.

There certainly is no "Gay Group Think". They have one thing in common - - and that's it.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Dendro
reply to post by hapablab

 

Because you take it completely out of context. You are generalizing the gay/lesbian/trans/queer community by assuming that everyone is an assless chap wearing clown. There is just as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community. Conservatives to Completely Out There.

That's my experience. Just people.

There certainly is no "Gay Group Think". They have one thing in common - - and that's it.

There is a huge misconception that the gay community is a unified and harmonized group when there is as much civil discourse as in any other community, society, group. I also love how people always want to associate assless chaps and leather to the gay community when statistically BDSM practices are far more common in hetero/straight/opposite/thisisgettingconfusing relationships.

My stance; I've always understood marriage to be a religious practice.

There is a separation between church and state. The government really shouldn't have any say so in who the church is allowed to marry, however if two same sex people want to become partners, the government has an obligation to care for ALL its citizens, regardless of sexual orientation. So while I think any religious symbolism and discrimination among who is and who is not married, is best left to the church, or any other religious group willing or unwilling to marry two consenting individuals, I don't think any state should legally be obliged to allow OR outlaw a religious ceremony. If they can find a church willing to do it, then more power to them.

However, in a state where they cannot find a willing and preferred religious group capable of joining two people into marriage, they should at least not be denied the benefits of being married, as recognized by the state.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

Basically, while I am not "for" same sex marriage, it's really only because I think it has religious significance, and as far as I know, the government really should not be able to prevent or allow the union, unless it's specifically recognized as a simple union between two partners.

I'm not really concerned that my opinion seems politically incorrect, mostly because anyone that wants a "church wedding" simply for the fluff and hype of doing something that is "taboo" obviously cares little for the religious significance of the union, and cares only for the attention the act is garnering.

The movement to allow or ban gay marriage should be taken to the Vatican, not the local government.

If it's really a marriage that same sex people want, and not just to draw attention to themselves as is typical of the sexual orientation, then why not go to the source. The government is only trying to at least appear to conform to social standards of acceptance. Taking your fight to the church, instead of trying to politic and muscle local statesmen into giving in to your demands, seems like the right thing to do.

To ATS' homosexual audience; If it's acceptance you want, then try accepting the rules put forth by the society you're trying to swim upstream against. If you can't accomplish what you want for yourselves by the same means that everyone else does, why exactly do you think you deserve special distinction? People already view homosexuals as attention-whores (pardon my language, dear moderator). Accomplish your fight for personal rights the same way every other minority does, and do it with some civility. Being gay doesn't automatically make you a leather thong-wearing, San Francisco Gay Pride parade frolicking, whip toting weirdo.

reply to post by yourignoranceisbliss


Actually, we are taking the fight to the proper channels. If you had read many of the previous posts, you would know it has been established that the practice of marriage is historically based around creating unions for economic, political, or societal gain. Religion for the most part stayed out of marriage until around the 12th Century.

While people may choose to get married in a CHURCH it is the STATE that issues the MARRIAGE LICENSE regardless, so in order to get equal rights for same-sex marriage it is only logical to go to the government and not the church.


ADDED: Re-reading your post I realized that you have a ridiculous misconception. You think the gay community is fighting for the right to be married in churches? Only the religious ones do. For the rest, it's to just get married whether that be on the beach, in City Hall, or a park.

Originally posted by Dendro

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Dendro
reply to post by hapablab

 

Because you take it completely out of context. You are generalizing the gay/lesbian/trans/queer community by assuming that everyone is an assless chap wearing clown. There is just as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community. Conservatives to Completely Out There.

That's my experience. Just people.

There certainly is no "Gay Group Think". They have one thing in common - - and that's it.

There is a huge misconception that the gay community is a unified and harmonized group when there is as much civil discourse as in any other community, society, group. I also love how people always want to associate assless chaps and leather to the gay community when statistically BDSM practices are far more common in hetero/straight/opposite/thisisgettingconfusing relationships.

Exactly!

If it weren't for straight people who believed in and supported equality - - I'm not so sure this fight would have the steam it has.

Young Gays are pretty much the same as Young Straights. They just want to get their "party" on. Many don't care about gay marriage - - yet.

Many elderly gays just want to continue living their lives quietly.

This fight falls on basically the "Yuppie Gays". The ones permanently settling down - - thinking about family.

That's the reality of it.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Dendro

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Dendro
reply to post by hapablab

 

Because you take it completely out of context. You are generalizing the gay/lesbian/trans/queer community by assuming that everyone is an assless chap wearing clown. There is just as much diversity in the gay community as there is in any community. Conservatives to Completely Out There.

That's my experience. Just people.

There certainly is no "Gay Group Think". They have one thing in common - - and that's it.

There is a huge misconception that the gay community is a unified and harmonized group when there is as much civil discourse as in any other community, society, group. I also love how people always want to associate assless chaps and leather to the gay community when statistically BDSM practices are far more common in hetero/straight/opposite/thisisgettingconfusing relationships.

Exactly!

If it weren't for straight people who believed in and supported equality - - I'm not so sure this fight would have the steam it has.

Young Gays are pretty much the same as Young Straights. They just want to get their "party" on. Many don't care about gay marriage - - yet.

Many elderly gays just want to continue living their lives quietly.

This fight falls on basically the "Yuppie Gays". The ones permanently settling down - - thinking about family.

That's the reality of it.

Where would Women's Rights be if no men saw the truth? Or if all caucasians really believed they were the superior ruling race during the Civil Rights movement? I welcome all allies regardless of orientation, gender, age, hair colour. I might reject your help if you listen to Nickelback... but that is a different rant for a different thread.

For a lot of the young people in the gay community, finally being "out" is a very freeing experience, and some like to over indulge. Much like anyone who has been depraved of freedom or fulfillment and is suddenly granted it.

I am one of the few young ones who are in the fight now and early, and I run the Pride Community for my college which is as amazing as it is difficult.

I had to browse through this thread as I couldn't believe that with all the bull# going on in the world today, governments ripping us off, the rising cost of living, terrorism, and the utter nonsense concerning 2012, that anyone could feel other than happy that two people, whether they are lesbian or homosexual, get together and live their lives as a loving couple...
No matter what their sex or sexual preference is, if they love one another and are committed to one another, then they should be able to marry and be seen as a couple in the eyes of the law.

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
I had to browse through this thread as I couldn't believe that with all the bull# going on in the world today, governments ripping us off, the rising cost of living, terrorism, and the utter nonsense concerning 2012, that anyone could feel other than happy that two people, whether they are lesbian or homosexual, get together and live their lives as a loving couple...
No matter what their sex or sexual preference is, if they love one another and are committed to one another, then they should be able to marry and be seen as a couple in the eyes of the law.

You get a star!

Probably one of the best posts in this entire thread.

Originally posted by Dendro
Where would Women's Rights be if no men saw the truth? Or if all caucasians really believed they were the superior ruling race during the Civil Rights movement? I welcome all allies regardless of orientation, gender, age, hair colour.

For a lot of the young people in the gay community, finally being "out" is a very freeing experience, and some like to over indulge. Much like anyone who has been depraved of freedom or fulfillment and is suddenly granted it.

I am one of the few young ones who are in the fight now and early, and I run the Pride Community for my college which is as amazing as it is difficult.

Good for you Dendro. And seriously - - how many young people are involved in politics.

In my town - - they had to bring in the ACLU after several years of trying to start a "Straight/Gay" alliance club in the high school. There are 3 high schools - - - but only one has been "allowed" to have this group.

I am not gay - - but 20 years ago worked in a company where I was the minority being straight. I was ignorant before that experience. I am forever grateful for the reality of that learning experience - - - have taken up the cause of eliminating ignorance in regards to gays.

Originally posted by Dendro

I am one of the few young ones who are in the fight now and early, and I run the Pride Community for my college which is as amazing as it is difficult.

Kudos to you for taking on such an endeavor. There has to be some trying times running a group like that, but the awareness is growing everyday.

and I'm a conservative so take my congratulations since you wont get much from other conservs hahaha

reply to post by Annee

Have you been to the gay parade - - or is this an opinion from what you see in the media?

Do you feel the same way about Mardi Gras?
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No, I hear the music outside and wonder whats going on, then to my surprise I see an orgy float past me.
and its not a few people its around 100,000 or so, see in Chicago they have a community called boystown where wonderful establishments called "The man hole" and "the back door" light up the night and two men tounge kiss on the corner at 3 pm in broad daylight, all I ask is keep it behind closed doors. Some of us unfortunately have to pass thru 35th north halsted for other reasons.

and as for mardi gras, I have always been against people in public getting drunk and white trash flashing their ta ta's for beads, thats a mess of its own.