Infinite Madness

Well, I have a theory. It is contencious. I know most will dissagree, but suspend your scepticism and listen with an open mind before you tell me I'm wrong! And you will. But indulge me for a few moments.

Now, you see I have this problem with infinity. I think it is just a mathmatical construct which people call upon when the maths fails them. And I have a logical explanation: We are told that the universe started with the big bang. So my first problem is this - how can anything that is infinate have a starting point?

Now, bear with me for a moment, and let us consider some philosophical questions..... We are told that space and time did not exist before the big bang. And we are lead to beleive that questions such as "If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding in to?" have no meaning, it can't be expanding into anything because there is nothing there - no time, no space = no spacetime, nothing. No dimensions. OK, taking this as true for the moment, lets look at the big bang.

Nothing...... Still nothing..... lots and lots of nothing......... a singularity! BANG!!!! Expansion....... And so it begins.

We are told nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Most of us would agree with that I am sure. So we must asume that the universe is not expanding faster than the speed of light. So let us take an arbitary mesurement of time, lets say 1 earth year. I know, it is a long time untill the earth comes into existence, but lets just use that. And lets look at the state of the unverse 1 earth year after the big bang. Lets say the speed of expansion is the same as the speed of light: Well, we must assume it has expanded by 1 light year in every direction, and is therefore 2 light years accross. And a hundred earth years after the big bang, it would be 200 light years accross. And so on.

According to wikipedia the universe is about 13.75 billion years old. Estimated tiime since the big bang 13.75 billion years, so by my maths that makes it 27.5 billion light years accross. Give or take a few miles..... Where is this infinate universe then. Is it expanding at an infinate rate? In that case matter is traveling faster than the speed of light, and we already agreed that was not generally accepted as possible. So at what point therefore does it become infinite?

So, no infinite univers.

Which makes me think that nothing IN the NON Infinite universe can be infinite - quid pro quo! Black holes can't have infinite mass, or gravity. And all this about black holes boiling away into space - not possible if they have infinite mass, which of course they can't. So if Hawkins is right black holes can't have infinite mass. (Don't get me started on Hawkins radiation, I have a theory on that that too!) Which backs up my theory that nothing in the univers can be infinite if the universe itself isn't!

So, there we have it. My Theory. Would love to hear your constructive critisisms. And fascinated to see if I can get even 1 reader to agree wth me.

reply to post by Shamatt


Ok sounds reasonable, if someone cannot comprehend size they attach an infinity thingie to it and say that's that!
The world is flat, or so "they" used to say, we found "them" to be wrong.
But who knows how big space is? maybe it is easier just to say infinite, until we can prove differently, unless it messes with our theory and or math.

the big bang did not happen

self awareness happened ...

the universe is expanding at the speed of consciousness

infinite boundless-ness ...all is contained with in its infinite Oneness

that also includes....life death ....oneness and duality ..matter and anti matter ..all and nothing

the inside and the outside are all one and the same

when you fall out of this consciously moving changing universe ...you do not die

you simple finish where thought.... thought it started off from

There is no end of life because there is no beginning .

nothing to get and so nothing to lose

life goes on with in me ...and.... with out me .....

and now I sound like a stuck recording


I cannot teach you this my point of view ..

you have to experience this perspective for yourself


Within you without you beatles

enjoy

Originally posted by Shamatt
We are told nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Most of us would agree with that I am sure. So we must asume that the universe is not expanding faster than the speed of light.

Nothing that moves through space can move faster than light, however space itself is not bound by this law, and space itself can expand faster than the speed of light.

Most scientist do believe that the Universe has a finite size, however they believe we cannot reach an edge of the Universe because space is curved in such a way that if you would set out to find the edge you might eventually return to the same spot, so you will never get to an edge.

reply to post by Shamatt


I think that I fully understand your theory and I fully agree with your conclusion but I wonder if you've overlooked a more important point IMO.

My theory is that we don't actually exist. We cannot exist because you cannot make something out of nothing and even if you invoke a "god" to create the universe, you still require something to have created the god. And when you consider that man made their gods, you're in danger of getting caught in a feedback loop.

Having said that, it's obvious that we do exist and are subject to physical and natural laws that seem to apply to all known matter. I decided decades ago that marvellous as these laws are, they only describe the paradise/prison that we exist within and as such are not worth worrying about too much.

I've always heard that knowledge is power but the evidence from history proves time and again that knowledge takes a back seat to power. More often than not, scientific advancements wind up causing more suffering for the multitudes and genuine benefit for relatively few. However, that's getting off topic so will leave it there!


"Life! Don't talk to me about life." (Marvin the Paranoid Android, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

We are told that the universe started with the big bang. So my first problem is this - how can anything that is infinate have a starting point?

(Some of) the contents of the universe started with a big bang. The universe is infinite.

"If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding in to?"

The universe is an infinite space. The contents of the universe are expanding into it.

it can't be expanding into anything because there is nothing there - no time, no space = no spacetime, nothing.

Space (the universe) is infinite and has always been there.

We are told nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.

No - we are told that nothing can be accelerated to a speed faster than the speed of light (that is not traveling faster than the speed of light already), because in order for that to happen, something that is already traveling faster than the speed of light would have to collide with the particle.

At the time this theory was made, nothing was known that travels faster than the light (hence the theory). However, today we know that neutrinos do, and very possibly, dark matter might travel faster than the speed of light.

Most of us would agree with that I am sure.

Most scientists do not - see above comment.

So we must asume that the universe is not expanding faster than the speed of light.

It does not have to, because it is already infinite.

So let us take an arbitary mesurement of time, lets say 1 earth year. I know, it is a long time untill the earth comes into existence, but lets just use that. And lets look at the state of the unverse 1 earth year after the big bang. Lets say the speed of expansion is the same as the speed of light: Well, we must assume it has expanded by 1 light year in every direction, and is therefore 2 light years accross. And a hundred earth years after the big bang, it would be 200 light years accross. And so on.

The speed that the universe is expanding is nowhere close to the speed of light. If fact, the expansion is accelerating.

So, no infinite universe.

Why? The universe is infinite space. Within it, there was (maybe) a big bang (possibly many at different places - of which we know only of one, because the others are too far to see.)

Black holes can't have infinite mass, or gravity.

They do not have infinite mass or gravity. They have enough gravity to capture a photon, hence we can't see them, so they are called 'black holes' in our vision.

Which backs up my theory that nothing in the universe can be infinite if the universe itself isn't!

Careful - your initial claim was that the universe was not infinite, not something within it. I agree that nothing in the universe is infinite, but the universe itself is.

Quantum entanglement has proven that some things do travel faster than light. Some stories of how UFO work based on gravity waves and affecting mass also go past the light barrier. Different materials effect the speed that light travels through them as well. It is a tough one trying to work out where we did come from. I find it had to picture a time of no time or a space of no space. If I jumped in a spaceship and went in a straight line then I cannot picture a wall that would stop me because there is no space on the other side. If I ended up where I started then I would give the navigator a good clip behind the ears and tell him straight, not curved. Maybe it is just the way my brain is wired, at least infinity is an answer despite how hazy it is.

Wow, thanks everyone. I'll try and cover everything in 1 post.

First though, a point of fact. Quantum entanglement does not prove that anyhting is traveling faster than light, as nothing actually travels betweent the two entangled particles. It can be argued that information does, but in fact that is not what the maths tells us. (Can't find a reference for this - I know I have one I read it recently I just can't find it. Will come back and add it when I do)

I like the idea of the unvers being infinate in space and time, and only it contents being created by the big bang. So spacetime always existed. I need to spend some more time with that concept, it is intriguing.

Does space expand faster than light, or does the contents of the univers expand slowly into space? If it is still accelerating, will it ever run out of energy and collaps under it's own gravity? The big crunch! Only to big bang again and start another round of expansion and collaps, infinatley repeating this pattern. I like that idea too.

JohnJasper, thank you for your post. It appeals to my sense of humour. I love the Hitchhikers quote, Marvin was my favoiurite!

I had not heard about nutrenos traveling faster than light - do you have a reference?

I'm still not sure about infinity, but Saurus hase given me plenty to think about. Sort of reframes a lot in a way that appeals to my logic. I will come back to this once I have had time to meditate with it.

Its possible there never was a big bang, that the universe isn't really 13 billion years old. Its possible these theories are incorrect. The universe could be infinite in size both micro and macro. When looking for the smallest particle they can find, they never find it - only something smaller each and every time. Why? because they are looking for it and so the universe presents them with something to be observed. But that is also due to the nature of consciousness, and the construct of reality. We are living in a fractal holographic matrix upon which is the canvas that consciousness imprints itself onto. There is order through chaos, and if you hold a mirror up to a mirror you will see for yourself that things can indeed be infinite.