Overthrowing A Government, When is Revolution Appropriate?

There is alot of news lately about Governments being overthrown and people violently revolting.
It seems that when citizens of other countries do it they are hailed as heros while a violent revolution in your own country is scorned and met with harsh criticism.

Here, in the U.S. we have The Constitution which clearly states,

"--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness".

Now, I don't know about you but I don't think that our government is going to just LET us abolish it without a fight.
Once people have power they don't just let it go.

I know there are ALOT of people who condemn even the idea or mentioning of Violent revolution here in the U.S.
They call themselves, "Patriots". Patriots "Love" their country. "Love" like an abused wife "Loves" her husband and will lie to their friends,family,co-workers, and even the police when help is offered.
"I ran into a door" "I fell down the stairs" "it was my fault, I deserved it".

When it all comes down to it "We The People" are the ultimate protector and defender of our constitutional rights, not the Government.

My question goes out to the "Patriots" who "Love" their country. the people who condemn even the use of the words Violent revolution or the idea of Overthrowing our/their government. This is ONLY a question and in NO WAY to be taken as a "call to arms" or even a "suggestion". I am simply asking a question that I would like an answer to because I am curious abou the inner workings of the minds of so called "patriots".

Here goes,

Question 1) Is there EVER a time when YOU would support a violent revolution/ Overthrowing of our/your own government? yes/no

please answer that question first.

Yes/no.

Then, only after answering that question, proceed to question two.

Question 2.) Under what circumstances?/ WHEN????


Just a little mental exercise for those of you who condemn the use of such inflammitory words.
These are not rhetorical questions and I would seriously be interested in picking the minds of "Patriots".

Edit to add:

For those of you uncomfortable with answering yes remember,
This is only a hypothetical question and in no way means you currently support the overthrow of your respective countries.

reply to post by Screwed


In the US, no I would not support a violent overthrow. We can vote for anyone we choose.

If we could not vote, then maybe there's a cause.

reply to post by GrisGris


So, there is a circumstance in which you would support it?
Yes or no?

The government is just a figment of our imagination.

All that exists are people and objects/stuff. Uncle Sam is a cartoon cmon man.
There is no Government. We are hallucinating it.

If you kill someone, it does not matter what costume they wear or what they believe themselves to be, it is still killing and it IS the problem not the solution to the problem.

A violent revolt is pure madness because you are merely revolting against your own illusionary beliefs in something intangible that doesn't exist in reality.

The true revolt is non-violent. You don't even have to leave your house.

Just open your mind and think.
Stop buying useless crap.
Stop letting others boss you around.
If your employment occupation contributes to the problems of society, quit your job and find something better.

The key here is non-violent non-compliance with the system.

If we stop believing in this fantasy (nightmare) that maybe we can finally wake up from it?
We need to stop complying.

But violence in the street? It's Insanity!
Nothing will change except a bunch of people will get hurt over nothing! Over our fantasies!

Violence is not the solution.
We are stuck in a cycle of violence.
The only way to break this cycle is to stop being violent.

Just stop supporting the system in your own way in your own life.
This is the true Achilles heel of our establishment.

Violence only begets more violence.

Let's try to win this the smart way, rather than lose because we lack critical thinking skills.

reply to post by Screwed


It is appropriate when you have exhausted Democratic options for change and reform AND when you have a better system designed and appropriate people selected to operate it.

If you have a revolution before the first stipulation, you are a fool. You will lose the support of the people at home and around the world. Your enemy will look sympathetic, and you dont need that.

If you act before the second stipulation is in place, you are also a fool. Odds are, someone will step in and hijack your revolution at the end, while you are all floundering trying to figure out who should do what. After you and your people have done all the work, and paid with your lives, this is a tragic thing. And that clever hijacker is likely to be much worse than the people you have usurped, an opportunist of the highest order. Not to mention that now, there is no democratic option left, and now you will have to raise ANOTHER revolution if you will have any hope of getting this new tyrant out.

People will not fight two revolutions in one lifetime. The memory of the cost is still far too fresh.

We still have a democratic option. We just need to bypass the media to get people elected who will actually represent the people. And if we do that, and the corporatists try to seize power by force, you still need to plan in advance what you will replace them with.

reply to post by GrisGris


The Egyptians have been voting for 30 years. Voting does have its flaws and can be totally rigged. I think thats why democracy is pushed around the world.

There are no Non-Violent revolutuions. The state will always resort to violence even if the people are totally peaceful.

Look what happened in Egypt. The Government actually payed thugs to attack the protestors.

Look the "government" we believe in is just a pool where we pour our tax money. Then this money gets allocated all over the place, tons of gov't jobs /contracts are created, etc etc. It's just paperwork and property with employees overseeing it.

The only way to stop that type of system is to quit paying into it. Quit complying with it's demands.

Revolting violently against it only sets up Justification for further totalitarian measures to be implemented to "prevent that in the future".

If we revolt by merely quitting playing their game, than they lose their "power" which they never had in the first place.

Power only resides within you. If you think you are "forced" to do something, you are wrong. You choose to give up and comply.

Let's weigh the odds here shall we?

Violence = Stupid
Non-Violence = Smart

Any questions?

reply to post by muzzleflash


I'm guessing that your answer is a definate NO?
no matter what?

It doesn't matter what my answer is. Of course I'd say no.

The reality is WHAT WORKS?

And tell me, did all of our violent revolts through history get rid of elitism? Did it solve poverty? Did it bring us peaceful happiness ??

Right. Because revolting only changes the people. It doesn't change the system.

To change the system we have to stop using money the way we do.
Stop buying stuff you don't need.

Violence will not fix anything. It never did, it never will.

Did the revolt of 1776 land us Freedom from elitist oppressions? Hell no.
New boss same as old boss, IMHO.

reply to post by muzzleflash


It absolutely DOES matter what your answer is.
I didn't start a thread trying to figure out how to solve the worlds problems which is what you are offering.
I wanted to find out if YOU would EVER support a revolution! If so WHY!
If not, WHY NOT!

You have done a wonderful job at explaining the "why not" and to some extent I totally agree with you on a philosophical level.
In the end YOU are probably right. But before you can explain the "why not" you have to first be willing to put yourself out there and clearly state that under absolutely NO circumstances would I EVER support the violent overthrow of MY country!

Are you willing to do that?

reply to post by muzzleflash


I totally agree with you, I think it will be a while before people abandon this idea that has been ingrained for centuries tho.

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.

Let no man pull you low enough to hate him.

Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.

Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

If you won't listen to me, maybe you should listen to Martin Luther King Jr??

He proved that you can change everything in society through non-violent non-compliance.

Who changed the world for the better?

A guy in the street throwing rocks?
Or the guy standing there talking Sense??

Sure, they shot MLK and killed him.
But did that kill his message? No.
Did that stop the public from pushing towards a better society? No.

That bullet made him legendary. It made his message stronger and louder.

Non-violence is the key here. It will unlock these chains and free us.

Originally posted by Screwed
But before you can explain the "why not" you have to first be willing to put yourself out there and clearly state that under absolutely NO circumstances would I EVER support the violent overthrow of MY country!

Are you willing to do that?

Ok, awesome I'm glad you are on this level with me.

But really I would never support a violent revolt against the country because there is no such thing as countries. Trust me man I went to Mexico and Canada and guess what? There wasn't a line on the ground. Hell, I didn't even see a fence there lol.

We invented the idea of a country. It's just an idea. In reality it doesn't exist.

Revolting against a fantasy and ending up getting hurt or hurting someone else, is insanity.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Violence = Stupid
Non-Violence = Smart

Any questions?

Thats a foolish statement. Life is not so simple that you can make hard and fast rules like that and expect good results. If you read Maritn Luther Kings and Gandhis writings you will see that non violence was a carefully chosen strategy for THEIR situations. Because violence in THEIR situations was suicidal. It may be for us too, but, its still misleading to pretend that there is a hard and fast rule that says non violence is always smart.

This is Earth, violence is the rule, not the exception.

reply to post by muzzleflash


I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Peace is carrying a bigger stick than the other guy."

Sadly, it's not the system that's the biggest problem. Human nature is our biggest problem.

The first American Revolution did indeed give us freedom for a time. I'd say it was probably sometime in the late 1800s when we stopped having that freedom and the government started taking more and more. Seems like the faster technology progresses, the faster the government takes from the people.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.

Let no man pull you low enough to hate him.

Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.

Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

If you won't listen to me, maybe you should listen to Martin Luther King Jr??

He proved that you can change everything in society through non-violent non-compliance.

Who changed the world for the better?

A guy in the street throwing rocks?
Or the guy standing there talking Sense??

Sure, they shot MLK and killed him.
But did that kill his message? No.
Did that stop the public from pushing towards a better society? No.

That bullet made him legendary. It made his message stronger and louder.

Non-violence is the key here. It will unlock these chains and free us.

Great point. I agree 1000%

1) Yes.

2) This is something I have thought about a lot lately; I have a lot to risk by participating in or even advocating a violent overthrow of the government – I am a retired veteran and while I own my land clear the loss of my benefits both monetary and medical would require a huge adjustment.

That said; I do have a personal tipping point of course as we all do. I hesitate to lay it all out here for obvious reasons.

I would say should a situation arise under which my retirement benefits would cease or be significantly reduced, say as a result of an economic collapse or a structured and deliberate attempt to save a few bucks during a national crisis that my “give a crap factor” for possible consequences for such actions would go down exponentially.

A man without much to lose is not what they want and I believe that is why they won’t screw with veteran’s benefits too much unless it’s a total TEOWAWKI event for that very reason. They (US Gov) know we (veterans) still have the leadership and technical skills to organize, train, equip and conduct guerilla operations against them.

In short here is a simple list of things that in theory (absent of variable specific and immediate risk to me and mine) might result in a tipping from reaction to action.

OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Originally posted by mayabong
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I totally agree with you, I think it will be a while before people abandon this idea that has been ingrained for centuries tho.

It's up to us to press it upon them.

The harder we work, and the more people we help, the faster this show will get on the road.

Being cynical isn't going to help much. Thinking it's too hard or will take too long is only slowing us down.

Don't let it stress you out. The truth is self-evident. It is only a matter of time for the mass population to come across it and have no way of blowing it off.

Not a matter of if, but a matter of when.

I have total and complete faith that things will change for the better.

But violent revolt is not the pathway to this bright future. We all know this deep inside our hearts and minds.
The answer is staring us right in the face.

Answer to #1 No/never Answer to #2 never.

The constitution does not call for violence. There is a system in place to correct the government. The US has never come close to exhausting all options. People (some people) want to bitch and moan about the government, but really, what are they doing? Complaining!

Let's take a look at what is going on in Egypt. Those people got so sick of their government what did they do?
1. The disregarded their jobs (those that had them) and protested.
2. They disregarded the necessity and means of obtaining the basics of life (i.e., food, water, shelter).
3. They brought their country to a standstill and amassed in cities throughout their country and protested, protested and protested some more.

When American's come together as one, as we have seen in Egypt, and the entire system comes to a screeching halt, then the government will fall apart at the seams. Once that happens, then we have used our constitutionally given powers to bring about a new government, or amend the existing one....and we will have accomplished it without violence. The fact that American's have not come together in this manner only illustrates the fact that most of us are not entirely fed up with our government.

Originally posted by Screwed

Question 1) Is there EVER a time when YOU would support a violent revolution/ Overthrowing of our/your own government? yes/no

Only when the incumbent government prevents due democratic process according to the law of the country concerned. So, in the case of the USA, the 4 yearly elections are cancelled - other than under extreme circumstance (ie asteroid collision, yellowstone eruption, thermonuclear war, etc in which case cancelation of elections may be acceptable - irrespective of what some might argue)

Question 2.) Under what circumstances?/ WHEN????

See above