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MUFON Director's being replaced...Why?

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posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
I guess that begs the question. Do we need an organization? I'm thinking they are kind of ineffectual myself, but, of course, it's up to the membership.

The organisation would be used as a tool to engineer opinion - just like ATS is! If it couldn't be used in this way, it's leaders would be accused of corruption or being lunatics and discredited. Sad but true. The organisation could easily be drawn into a hoax and then accused of perpetrating it if that failed.

This disinformation propaganda is too easy. I'd be so good at it, I'm on the verge of considering a career change

edit on 11/2/11 by Pimander because: typo




posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by schuyler
I guess that begs the question. Do we need an organization? I'm thinking they are kind of ineffectual myself, but, of course, it's up to the membership.

The organisation would be used as a tool to engineer opinion - just like ATS is! If it couldn't be used in this way, it's leaders would be accused of corruption or being lunatics and discredited. Sad but true. The organisation could easily be drawn into a hoax and then accused of perpetrating it if that failed.


The operative word there is "could" and what is missing is "by whom." Perhaps it could. Perhaps those things have happened already. If you are going to create an orgnanization to "engineer opinion" you're going to have to program in some status, prestiege, or clout, I don't see that in Mufon myself. I don't see Mufon engineering any opinion at all and I don't see any other organization out there doing it either.

As an example, when a UFO flap happenes and the MSM wants to get involved, they don't call up Mufon for a quote; they call Stan Friedman. When there's some abduction story, they don't call Mufon; they call Budd Hopkins. Meanwhile you have UFO gad flys like Michael Horn, Steven Greer, and Bassett sending out press releases like Michael Horn just did, claiming because WikiLeaks exposed a junior diplomat's cable that Saudi Arabia's oil reserves were probably overstated by 40% that this proves Billy Meier's story is true.

Mufon, and organizations like it, can't compete with this kind of thing. That's why I think they are largely irrelevant.



posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by schuyler


Speaking of Stanton Friedman and gadflies... I think I know why he has posted a *new* debunk of Bob Lazar on his website...

UFO-OVNI-Jerusalem, Israel. "THE ROAD TO RACHEL" Movie Trailer




Released on youtube Feb 02, 2011 about the same time as the Jerusalem UFO stuff

I HATE coincidences...



posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
Perhaps it could. Perhaps those things have happened already. If you are going to create an organanization to "engineer opinion" you're going to have to program in some status, prestiege, or clout, I don't see that in Mufon myself. I don't see Mufon engineering any opinion at all and I don't see any other organization out there doing it either.

MUFON and the rest of 'the scene' were already infiltrated some time ago. Recent developments will be either a fight against that or another game, prestige or not.

If you call ATS an organisation then I see it happening right here, right now. Confusion reigns supreme... Disinformation is the order of the day. It's so obvious to the trained eye and with a little coaxing will be obvious to many more. I have found it so tough not to share my thoughts on certain 'members' at times.

And before I get flamed or banned. The owners do not have to be COINTELPRO agents for me to be right. They may or may not be. The mods do not have to be either, although I'm sure some would have their uses if they were. Providing said agents are allowed to play their games, then this site continues to be an important tool for them.

I'm not saying John Lear isn't COINTELPRO himself, but he has made some interesting points. I have included the video below for newcomers.


Part 2
etc...

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying all members or anyone involved in running the site are just disinfo op agents. I am saying that some 'members' certainly are.

I have a thread brewing that may shock (?) some members. We shall see.

How very dare I. How rude



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Pimander
 



It's so obvious to the trained eye and with a little coaxing will be obvious to many more. I have found it so tough not to share my thoughts on certain 'members' at times.


Oh, come on. You have a "trained eye" to scope out disinformation agents? Gimme a break! I don't want to pick on you personally, it's just that we hear that all the time here by many people, these vague assertions of "disinformation agents" lurking on the boards, with no proof whatsoever--just common sense and the ubiquitous "trained eye." Trained by whom, pray tell? Is there a secret handshake for those 'in the know'?

In reality calling someone a "disinformation agent," even vaguely, is a specious ad hominem argument used more often than not in an attempt to derail and sidestep what someone else is saying. Suddenly it's not about the facts any more, but about whether someone accused really is or really isn't. This is used so often that it has become the boy crying wolf story.

And it's too bad because once in awhile I think it might be valid. I happen to think that Corso might fall into this category and I think I have a valid argument for it, but the "disinfo" shtick has such a bad rep on this site that it is virtually useless to try on.

What I find most laughable is that people (and this fiots quite a few) actually think they have special powers of observation beyond those of mere mortal sheeple that allow them to understand and ferret out the truth while others do not. I simply do not believe that. If you have a case to be made, make it, but stop with the vague accusations.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by Allred5923
 



Hello everyone... Just trying to earn my right to post new threads...

Peace.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Hardknocklife
Hello everyone... Just trying to earn my right to post new threads...
Peace.


4 demerits for that post as it added nothing. Lets hope your threads have more content



Originally posted by schuyler

Oh, come on. You have a "trained eye" to scope out disinformation agents? Gimme a break! I don't want to pick on you personally, it's just that we hear that all the time here by many people, these vague assertions of "disinformation agents" lurking on the boards, with no proof whatsoever--just common sense and the ubiquitous "trained eye." Trained by whom, pray tell? Is there a secret handshake for those 'in the know'?


Well I too can spot the agents on here
It is actually very easy. You need the ability to read between the lines and look for certain mannerisms.

BUT you first need to define what exactly IS a "disinformation agent" Until you know what your looking for, you won't find them
And why would they be 'lurking"? How can they operate and feed disinfo by lurking? THOSE are the "watchers"


So how exactly does a "disinformation agent"operate, can someone show me an example? Let me see what ya got... and I will tell you if your right



edit on 12-2-2011 by zorgon because: Classified



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 

If everyone thinks Mufon is infiltrated, then who cares who's running it now or whenever, they can't be trusted, so what does it matter. Just an opinion on various replies I've read so far



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Whatdidisee
If everyone thinks Mufon is infiltrated, then who cares who's running it now or whenever, they can't be trusted, so what does it matter. Just an opinion on various replies I've read so far


Well all the major UFO networks were 'infiltrated' early on. There are even documents on that somewhere on DTIC (will have to find them again). T thought everyone knew that


Even Jacque Vallee was rumored to be MJ7, but he was certainly in the Aviary



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Whatdidisee
reply to post by zorgon
 

If everyone thinks Mufon is infiltrated, then who cares who's running it now or whenever, they can't be trusted, so what does it matter. Just an opinion on various replies I've read so far

I'm not trying to pick on you here, you do have a point. But please read up on this if you're genuinely interested. You will not be able to get to grips with this topic if you do not realise that there has been infiltration and disinformation in the field. It surprises me that Shuyler could be as informed as he is but still try to down play the possible use of ATS for disinformation.

There are documents and whistle-blowers with plenty to say and I will author a thread on web based manipulation in the next day or two if you are interested. I have given you a few threads to get you started. If you don't find what you want, try a U2U to Karl 12 (ATS subject matter expert) or Isaac Koi. You also have Zorgon who may try to force you to do some digging for yourself (no bad thing). They are like encyclopaedias for this type of info.

www.abovetopsecret.com... In this one there is a mention about infiltration of NICAP.
www.abovetopsecret.com... There is a video of a talk by Richard Dolan in this thread about UFOs and the National Security State.
www.abovetopsecret.com... More Dolan
www.abovetopsecret.com... Some more dirt on MUFON

edit on 14/2/11 by Pimander because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 

reply to post by schuyler
 


Originally posted by schuyler
reply to post by Pimander
 



It's so obvious to the trained eye and with a little coaxing will be obvious to many more. I have found it so tough not to share my thoughts on certain 'members' at times.


Oh, come on. You have a "trained eye" to scope out disinformation agents? Gimme a break! I don't want to pick on you personally, it's just that we hear that all the time here by many people, these vague assertions of "disinformation agents" lurking on the boards, with no proof whatsoever--just common sense and the ubiquitous "trained eye." Trained by whom, pray tell? Is there a secret handshake for those 'in the know'?

And how can anyone prove it? Now that really is a specious argument. If you ask the impossible what do you expect in response? You have to be capable of reading between the lines and it takes a lot more than common sense to work it out. And you don't need a coach to be trained. It takes a lot of hard work and no small amount of natural ability to be very good at something. I will author a thread on it soon.


Originally posted by schuyler
In reality calling someone a "disinformation agent," even vaguely, is a specious ad hominem argument used more often than not in an attempt to derail and sidestep what someone else is saying. Suddenly it's not about the facts any more, but about whether someone accused really is or really isn't. This is used so often that it has become the boy crying wolf story.

It's a good thing that nobody has accused anyone of being a disinfo agent on this thread then. Or is that an ad hominem aimed at me and designed to detract from what I am saying here?


Originally posted by schuyler
reply to post by Pimander
(snip)... the "disinfo" shtick has such a bad rep on this site that it is virtually useless to try on.

That does not mean what I am saying isn't true.


Originally posted by schuyler
What I find most laughable is that people (and this fiots quite a few) actually think they have special powers of observation beyond those of mere mortal sheeple that allow them to understand and ferret out the truth while others do not. I simply do not believe that. If you have a case to be made, make it, but stop with the vague accusations.

Laugh away. Again, that does not make you right. In fact you could be completely wrong. Some people are great athletes, some people are great thinkers while others have unusually good eyesight. They are exceptional individuals that stand out from the many. Some ATS members may have unusually well developed powers of observation coupled with having worked extremely hard to become better informed. However, I'm sure many don't and haven't. It's a matter of opinion which category I or any other member fits into.

As for vague accusations. I haven't made any. I have made a precise clear statement. I think that there are disinformation agents active on ATS. No vaguery, no side-stepping, no accusing an individual or ATS as a whole. A simple deduction.


Originally posted by zorgon
Well I too can spot the agents on here
It is actually very easy. You need the ability to read between the lines and look for certain mannerisms.
(snip)
So how exactly does a "disinformation agent"operate, can someone show me an example? Let me see what ya got... and I will tell you if your right


edit on 12-2-2011 by zorgon because: Classified

Zorgon, I agree that with you as you know. I seem to remember discussing this with you briefly... but not on a thread in public. I will start a thread on this soon though. I just can't hold back any longer.

I toyed with the idea of using specific examples publicly. But I realise that it will just get way too personal. The ensuing row will just destroy any thread about disinformation on the web. I'm guessing the thread will be hit hard anyway and become useless and get buried. The other reason for not naming names is I really wouldn't want to accuse anyone and get banned. How the hell can I prove it? Look what happened to John Lear and he didn't go that far...

Much as I sense you know I'd love to, no names.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Pimander
 


This is a joke, right? And Zorgon, too. Amazing. Never would have thought. (Zorgon, buddy? Those smiley faces are there for a reason, right? You're just having a little fun, right?) You guys with your Super Powers are maintaining that you, by virtue of a particularly insightful intelligence and knowledge, know, without a doubt, which people are actually "disinfomation agents" who are intentionally spewing false knowledge to confuse the "truth."

From other threads which have made similar claims I take it that disinformation agents argue in illogical ways that betray them (changing subjects, etc.), are paid by unknown government agencies, and have certain other traits that those "in the know" are aware of. HOW they are aware or became aware of these secret traits is always a secret in itself. Gotta be circumspect here or, cough, you know, i COULD name names, but I might get into trouble, so you understand. Mum's the word!

I don't think you know. I think you are claiming a high ground that isn't there. I don't think anyone here has "special skills" to enable them to discern so-called "disinfo agents." I don't think being capable of typing COINTELPRO means you know anything at all about intelligence operations or have special knowledge that others do not. Now you can say "You may be wrong" and logically, that's true, But maybe it would help if I put it this way; You (all) have not convinced me that you have any special skills of discernment beyond normal. You are making very broad claims here. There is no data that proves it. You are asking us to believe ON FAITH that you have Super Powers. I think that's complete nonsense.

That's not to say I think you know nothing. We all have our little tidbits of knowledge that we believe to be solid. When someone intrudes onto those tidbits of knowledge with something we believe to be patently false, there's no reason we can't point those issues out. But someone treading onto your knowledge base with an untruth is a far different proposition than claiming you KNOW when someone is employed as an agent.

My SECOND problem with this issue is that it effectively does what you all say a disinfo agent does. In some ways it's the pot calling the kettle black. That's why I call the whole idea a specious ad hominem argument that diverts whatever argument is at hand to criticize the person making the argument. That argument is illogical unless you have some serious proof. Saying that your Super Powers allow you to know is not serious proof. It's laughable. It is not credible. Prove it. Of course, you cannot. When you are on a thread and suggest, even without naming anyone, that "disinformation is afoot" you are effectively DOING the disinformation yourself.

Think about it, guys. You're saying there are ghosts in the room. I say, I can't see any ghosts, and then you say, well, I'm the only one who can see them. And you actually expect me to believe you. Why should anyone?

My THIRD issue is to question the presence of disinformation agents at all. I doubt seriously that there are any here. I don't know that there has been a documented case of any disinformation agents prowling any boards and intentionally spreading falsehoods. I'm talking about paid government agents here, not trolls, attention seekers, malcontents, and those who intentionally disrupt threads and forums because of character flaws in their own personalities. There will always be people who do that. Indeed, we have them on ATS every day and it doesn't take Super Powers to figure out who they are.

Board Management sometimes takes great delight in pointing out increased traffic from .mil and .gov sites as if to say that ATS is "of interest" to the intelligence community. Well, yeah, but not in the way they think. There are tens of thousands of "intelligence analysts" in government, and in the military. The vast majority are doing clerical level jobs. They are twentty-something E-4's just as interested in conspiracies as we are, and they surf the net. That doesn't mean thay are assigned to take the temperature of an issue on ATS. They are here, just like you and me, poking around to see what's here.

ATS isn't really that important in the larger scheme of things. It's kind of an alternative Drudge, a place to hang out if you're interested in alternative conspiracies. Anything really important to the greater scheme of things appears on Drudge and Slashdot as quickly as it does here. Sometimes one scoops the other by a couple of hours, but you could just as easily keep up on most important information by reading Drudge as you can here. It's just that you get more "I saw a light in the sky!" stories here.

I suspect once in a great while ATS may be the subject of experiment, the same way my college English class held a contest to see who could get a letter published in Dear Abby. (My favorite was the guy who sniffed the juice of seven olives from his martini up his nose in restaurants.) So I could see a group wanting to study how rumors and memes spread on the Internet by placing a story here and monitoring where it goes.

But as for resident assigned agents from some alphabet agency here to spread hate and discontent? It's not necessary. ATS has several thousand subscribers who do a dandy job at that already.

P.S. If you choose to tear apart this post by quoting and responding time after time after time, I won't read it. It's a wate of time and it's uncouth. Do your own comprehensiove post to address the issues.

P.P.S. Please excuse typos. I need new glasses and have a hard time seeing the screen clearly.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
reply to post by Pimander
 

(Snip)
You guys with your Super Powers are maintaining that you, by virtue of a particularly insightful intelligence and knowledge, know, without a doubt, which people are actually "disinfomation agents" who are intentionally spewing false knowledge to confuse the "truth."
I don't think anyone here has "special skills" to enable them to discern so-called "disinfo agents." I don't think being capable of typing COINTELPRO means you know anything at all about intelligence operations or have special knowledge that others do not.
(snip)

Schuyler,

I will respond to this in more detail, maybe just a link to my new thread I am about to work on in a minute if I can avoid getting side-tracked. In many, if not most cases where the disinfo line is reeled out, you are right.

I apologise if you found the way I quoted bits of your post to 'tear apart' what you were saying insulting. I do that to try to be clear where I stand and you aren't the first to find it rude. Sorry, no offence was intended.

And lay off the term Super Powers. That's taking a joke too far
. I'm just saying certain people are better at some things than others. It happens to be true. Some also KNOW 'stuff'. It's also wouldn't be fair to post 'stuff' on here that I have been told privately that backs up what I am saying. If you're a gentleman, you will understand why I have said that.

Can I just say, to be absolutely clear, that I am NOT accusing you of anything underhand. I just disagree to some extent with what you are saying.

Anyway, I better shut up and write my new thread.
edit on 14/2/11 by Pimander because: Forgot to mention super powers.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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Pimander,
No worries. The chopped up quote thing is just a pet peeve. Things get so torn up that I have difficulty following. That was directed at the world, not just you. I prefer to read a sober essay with paragraphs. Know what I mean? :-)
I look forward to your next thread. If I may make a small suggestion, I hope you can come up with a method of discernment that involves more than just intuition, something that at least offers the possibility of a testable hypothesis.
I guess we're a long way from Mufon Directors getting replaced. Funny how that happens.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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You guys are the best. Never mind I feel like a freshman with all seniors, I'm still part of the school and learning.
No BS with you guys. Your opinions and how you draw your conclusions,and give us the options to persue idea's.
No group hugs..
But thanks...
A thread does'nt have to be HOT (notice I didn't say viral) to be valid..
Lots of good info here.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Pimander
 



You will not be able to get to grips with this topic if you do not realise that there has been infiltration and disinformation in the field.


There is a "BIG" issue with these kind of thing's taking place in such organizations as MUFON.When one becomes disgruntle over an issue of no resolve, the dis-info becomes kindling for the fire of "Hoax" "Fake" or just plain "Nonsense" for public analogies. This is why I believe this scenario has played out thus far. If we were to be left to believe that there are nothing more than liar's that are member's of the MUFON network, what then do we understand of what we hear? We can't, it all becomes garbled in overoptimistic over tones and propaganda.
Zorgon is greatly respected by me, I understand his input of thing's of this nature, and I also believe he knows the implication's of dis-info and how fast it spreads to the multitudes which leaves the proverbial table of argument's wide opened and centered around such attacks and reiteration of such said theories.The interviews on the Jerry Pippin show were very well displayed for public awareness, it had all sides of the argument, but when the former MUFON "Star Watcher" member came on, he managed to create the undulating doubt that is was necessary for MUFON to be in different type of control other than the very people who have been running the MUFON project for four decades. This makes no sense, unless for some strange reason they were either becoming scenically unreliable or their mental health was dwindling for the multitudes for such information.
This all gets steeped in the rhetoric of "Conspiracy" more times than not. And I understand that changes in command happen all the time, but with all the space and ET programs getting axed rather methodically, it bares in mind that there may be other greater influences of such issues that we are not privy too.
Great contribution's Primander!!
A lot of true grit in conversation!!!
And thank you Zorgon, your opinion's are greatly and respectfully accepted. But not without some research!!!



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by niceguybob
 



You guys are the best. Never mind I feel like a freshman with all seniors, I'm still part of the school and learning.


Get some research niceguybob? Share it with us!! Looking forward to having you participate in the possibility of these acts being nothing short of a "POSSIBLE" hostile take over. Whether it is for the greater good or not, we remain unanswered for sure, that's where you and we come in "For the truth".



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon
When I first heard the money came from Bigelow I thought GREAT! Now we are getting somewhere... now I am not so sure... I need to do some digging. My attention has been elsewhere

Do you think Bigelow want to influence public opinion on UFOs so they can cash in on the space tourism industry. Surely the right kind of public attention would be good for business. Are they trying to get contracts for space tourism?



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 07:56 PM
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I'll share what I learn. There's just a different level of sophisication with some of you guys. No name calling or outing someone. Just your facts and opinions on what your learning. Pretty good reasoning too.

And? you guys are "nice' to some people in your answers, even though you COULD bust their balls or opinions too hard. Just fresh debate if it warrents your time.

This thread could show really good science meets facts meets opinons without reading through 10 pages of "experts" with no background or research.

I was taught a long time ago..in a real meeting,don't ask a question unless you now the answer,and see the other persons responce..and file it. I see you guys already knew that for the most part too.

Always open to idea's though.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by Pimander
 



Do you think Bigelow want to influence public opinion on UFOs so they can cash in on the space tourism industry. Surely the right kind of public attention would be good for business. Are they trying to get contracts for space tourism?


That there is a very good question to ponder Primander. It would be the perfect advertisement to sway public decision and potential investor's to side up and take the ride.


Bigelow who has been known to keep his findings on the UFO subject secret has agreed per his contract with MUFON to hold nothing back from this organization that is revealed in the BAASS lab analysis of materials supplied by MUFON.



I did some more searching and found an article from January 31, 2011. It is the guise that MUFON wasn't prepared for what the BAASS had ins store for MUFON's future:

The MUFON Board of Directors may be in pursuit of their own truth, but the real truth has an odd way of surfacing even after many years, as the CIA-Mafia affair shows. How can those in the field of Ufology seek disclosure from outside if they are not willing to seek disclosure from within first? The choices made by the MUFON Board during the MUFON-BAASS project demands complete openness and transparency so that the conspiracy theory behind the MUFON-BAASS relationship is put to rest. MUFON’s leadership should practice what it preaches and leave no details hidden if it wishes MUFON to retain any semblance of respectability in this field already filled with enough unanswered questions and shadowy characters and organizations. It is time for MUFON to sweep its own house clean.


Strange Bedfellows
This is from a blog-spot I had found on Bigelow, it has the exert of the article posted and a source area to click to link, but the Link error says the page cannot be found..HMmmm? Wonder what that is all about?

The Blog-post Link

This here would support the fact that Bigelow was attempting to over throw the MUFON board of director's to better suit his personal agenda for MUFON. If this were to be the final approach by Bigelow to get his desired information for some new kind of space travel technology, it would be absolutely brilliant to go where few Government and outside investments have tread. This truly makes sense to me as a conspiracy to infiltrate, over throw and command MUFON as a "Commercially" operated organization, not the "Public Know" that it was designed to be.
All this for Financial gain and little to no public scrutiny...."Damn Money Monger's!!"

Lets try to dig deeper into this current state of epiphany, Zorgon would be beneficial for sure..."Where are you Zorgon?"
edit on 082828p://1074 by Allred5923 because: To add article of interest



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