It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity & Islam.

page: 8
26
<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 06:56 PM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


Still not allowed to mention it on ATS. Too much heat and stuff comes down from the top I guess, however it is mentioned occasionally in newspaper articles, but there is a forum for that kind of thing, so its kept away from the normal ones.

Also, there is no need to use anything. There are natural ways to increase your pineal such as sungazing. I'll add my thread for doing this safely. Also, using blinds for meditation, darkness, reaching alpha, for that also helps, but really its related to rem I think. Large doses of vitamin C, ie. several grams before sleep can really help as well. That reminds of a thread if I can find it.

tp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread602327/pg1
Sungazing For Mind/Body/Soul Safely!

www.abovetopsecret.com...
What can I do to keep my pineal gland in pristine condition?
edit on 13-2-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 09:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


Still not allowed to mention it on ATS. Too much heat and stuff comes down from the top I guess, however it is mentioned occasionally in newspaper articles, but there is a forum for that kind of thing, so its kept away from the normal ones.

Also, there is no need to use anything. There are natural ways to increase your pineal such as sungazing. I'll add my thread for doing this safely. Also, using blinds for meditation, darkness, reaching alpha, for that also helps, but really its related to rem I think. Large doses of vitamin C, ie. several grams before sleep can really help as well. That reminds of a thread if I can find it.

tp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread602327/pg1
Sungazing For Mind/Body/Soul Safely!

www.abovetopsecret.com...
What can I do to keep my pineal gland in pristine condition?
edit on 13-2-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)


The 3 major arguments for the existence of a Creator.

When we consider all the philosophical arguments for the existence of a Creator, the majority of religionists only use two major arguments, which are the arguments from Design and the argument from "religious experience," and it is the latter "Gnostic" type experience which you appear to be seeking through taking Vitamin C, sun gazing etc., though I have never personally tried such methods and am rather sceptical about them.

Both of the arguments from design and from "experience" are riddled with problems.

1: The Argument from Design.

The proponents for the argument from Design are essentially stating "If something looks like it has been designed, then perhaps it "has" been designed." I am very familiar with the contrary Darwinian argument, but frankly both arguments are problematic. The argument for design is essentially only a Deist's argument; it does not establish the superiority of one religion over another; that the worship of Ganesh (the Hindu elephant god) is superior to the worship of the ancient tribal deity of the Israelites, or vice versa.

Essentially the Deist is stuck with the problem of infinte causal regression (the question of who created the Creator's great, great (ad infinitum) grandmother, and as Richard Dawkins argues (I paraphrase), since the universe is very complex and "appears" to us to be designed, if we simply propose that there is an even more complex Designer, this merely amplifies the problem. Similarly the materialist is also faced with the problem of the infinite causal regression of the origin of matter (and what was the origin of pre-matter, and pre-pre-matter, ad infinitum), the origin of time (and what existed before the beginning of tme, and before that, etc., ad infinitum), and frankly it is widely understood that these questions are simply "beyond" the limits of "pure reason."

2: The argument from religious experience

This is essentially a theist's argument, however Hindus may report that their faith is confirmed by visionary and shamanic experiences with, say for example, Hanunam, the Hindu monkey god, or Shiva, or whatever, and Christians may report that they receive visions or shamanic experiences with "Jesus," and inmates of psychiatric institutions may report that they have the experience that demons are chasing or possessing them, or that "God" or the "gods" are communicating with them, or you may claim to have such experiences by taking vitamin C or by sungazing.

All such experiences are entirely subjective and are not exclusive to any particular religion. Thus this is problematic and unsatisfying in terms of an argument for a particular definition of a deity. Further we know that all human bodies produce the natural neuro-transmitter '___', and I consider it to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this produces religious type experiences.

3: The argument from religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination.

This is a sceptic's argument and I have coined the description of this argument myself, since it is a neglected argument, but it is widely understood in the field of psychology of religion. We can take a child and totally hypnotise them and indoctrinate them with the belief that Santa Claus exists, and the child will genuinely believe that; similarly with almost any type of irrational belief, such as that the saviour is Ganesha the Hindu elephant deity, or that the saviour is a once living god (i.e., Jesus) who impregnated his mother (Mary, the Mother of God) in order to give birth to himself, so that he could be tortured and executed to forgive a select group of believers for the sin of their ancestral mother who was tempted to eat a fruit by a talking snake,

None of these arguments are really satisfying and they do not "prove" the existence of a Creator, nor do they prove the truth of one definition of a deity over another.

The Gnostic Experience

I can only speak theoretically about this, but I think it to be possible that in addition to neurological factors (i.e., the functioning or malfunctioning of the brain) which produce schizophrenia, that it may well be possible that "religious schizophrenia," which accounts for around 20 to 25% of schizophrenics, may well be caused by a chemical imbalance where the body overproduces '___', and the result is visionary, shamanic and religous type experiences which are uncontrollable, whereas persons whose bodies "underproduce" '___' will tend not to have such experiences to the same extent.

Unfortunately in our religious world, most of the "models" of a "good" person, such as Mohammad and Jesus are simply models of religous schizophrenics; thus it is entirely unsurprising that we live in a dysfunctional world which has had a long history of religious evil. I personally don't believe that the problem of human evil can be solved by meditating, taking vitamin C, sungazing, accepting some form of religion, or even by taking "any" type of substance which produces shamanic or gnostic experiences.

I am thus left only with Nietzsche's anti-gnosticism and the idea that the superior man (and woman) is a modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical philosopher who has entirely abandoned the religious quest, forsaken the savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion.

Lux


edit on 13-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 10:27 AM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 



Gnostic" type experience which you appear to be seeking through taking Vitamin C, sun gazing etc., though I have never personally tried such methods and am rather sceptical about them.

see thats my whole thing ......hey, you're a skeptic, and haven't personally tried such methods. Ok cool .....but on the basis of that, stem the rest of your points of view.

Whereas, it would be much more fitting and fair ....to try such methods, investigate them to see if there is anything there, and while doing so briefly suspend skepticism. If nothing there, then skepticism is substantiated. If something there .....the redefine points of view.

That was my case, originally as an Atheist/Agnostic..... investigate everything with all P.O.V. temporarily suspended...... what I found upon investigation has totally blown me away.


1: The Argument from Design. ......and frankly it is widely understood that these questions are simply "beyond" the limits of "pure reason."

Thats the point ......reason itself is limited ...however investigating/practicing spiritual methods, directly leads to subtle and and as of yet, unused or new faculties ...such as a faculty of transcendence which directly experiences reality as "No time" and as the ground of Being coming from a place that has always been. In these spiritualized faculties .......no time, uncreated, and "having always existed" ...make complete sense.


2: The argument from religious experience
All such experiences are entirely subjective and are not exclusive to any particular religion. Thus this is problematic and unsatisfying in terms of an argument for a particular definition of a deity.

However ....I think worth mentioning is that ......by investigating the core values of many religions, we will find the esoteric Mystics who discuss direct experience. These folks can take someone like yourself ....and systematically guide you into the state of direct experience ....all of which has nothing to do with beliefs/thoughts. And so it is, in a sense, a repeatable phenomenon.....

happened to me .....and I have also gotten folks, even a few atheist friends, to have glimpsed this Absolute reality ...even if for a few seconds. It is repeatable


Further we know that all human bodies produce the natural neuro-transmitter '___', and I consider it to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this produces religious type experiences.

There are plenty of studies with MRI scans of folks experiencing Enlightenment or Union with the Absolute and there is no signs of '___' release .......but there are areas of the Brain lit up ....that aren't normally lit up by folks that dont experience these things.

....so one can say ..."Ok so its just all neuro-based experience". Problem there is that we can bring people into a room, allow them to eat apples and see all the same areas of the Brain light up for that. But we can also say the same for those experiencing Union with this Divine Absolute .....It therefore creates, for now a paradox:

the God experience is real(therefor God is real) or brain based ....eating an apple is real or brain based.....


3: The argument from religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination.

Can't argue with that One ....however to take it to the next step ....The thought of a rock, is not the actual rock. Thought of something is an imagined representation. However the real thing, if it does exist, will be entirely independent of what any mind thinks about it.

Ultimately with this, it comes down to myself being a spiritual scientist ......or using the scientifc method to see if I find anything on the other side of "spiritual claims". And by have I found some Ish that is definitely more real than the reality that most folks experience ...something that is prior to thought/experience/the senses/life ...etc


The Gnostic Experience - Unfortunately in our religious world, most of the "models" of a "good" person, such as Mohammad and Jesus are simply models of religous schizophrenics;

Beg to differ ......I found that these states that one comes across due to Spiritual practice ....calms the mind, brings on a certain clarity which would include Wholeness, ego Death, Self Mastery, Selflessness, and above all things a Transcendent Love.

From investigating Enlightenment and putting to practice certain things to see if there is anything there, the discoveries I found is that it is a process of becoming whole and integrated, finding One's soul, clearly remembering pre-existence, and completely unraveling and having access to the entire sub-conscious, additional faculties, insights, etc......

Spirituality is the next step in Human evolution .....for all to be Buddhas/Christs .....that is the real Enlightenment age


I am thus left only with Nietzsche's anti-gnosticism and the idea that the superior man (and woman) is a modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical philosopher

Anti-gnosticism is now an impossibility for myself having experienced "Gnosis." It is the most sensible, logical, and ultimate next stage for human evolution ...

"modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" means absolutely nothing when its all relative, can be hijacked when drunk, on drugs, influenced by lust, or subject to falter based on a number of things


who has entirely abandoned the religious quest, forsaken the savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion.

I can't really argue with that ....however I would say to continue and make the priority in life, an awakening to Gnosis/Transcendence ......to be completely beyond and above "modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" ...which is possible in Gnosis.

Once the direct experience of the Absolute is had ....it seen that "savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion." is something that was projected onto the Absolute by folks who never had the direct knowledge of the Absolute...... and with that insight, One merely rests in the Grand Gnosis of the Absolute and continues the Evolutionary stage into a living Christ or Buddha.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 10:44 AM
link   


There are people who cannot "experience" Beethoven's 5th. To them that music is just frequencies that don't resonate with their inner being - they do hear the same score, but there is no emotional connection. That is all OK until they start to argue that there is no music at all, just frequencies because it "only" happens in the mind. Do you see that slippery slope?


Total tone deafness is an extremely rare neurological condition (a malfunctioning of the brain). Almost every single human being has "some" varying degree of tone deafness apart from approximately about one in 10,000 people who have AP (absolute pitch) and who are essentially musical geniuses, down to the 4-5% of the population who have difficulties hearing the difference between musical notes; there is debate over whether this is due to perception or neurology, but the arguments seem to favour the neurological. See geniusblog.davidshenk.com...

reply to post by Lucifer777
 


You almost had me convinced that you know your stuff until you made these false statements about tone deafness.

Let me explain:

- Tone deafness has nothing to do with the ability to enjoy and make an emotional connection with music. That was my point re Beethoven's 5th. I have no clue why you mentioned "tone deafness"? A tone deaf person cannot match any given pitch, but they are certainly able to enjoy music.

In my analogy Atheist simply lack the ability to make an emotional connection with the symphony. And then they claim that there is no symphony at all. You have yet to address that point, but maybe it's easier for you to keep repeating the schizophrenia spiel.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


I won't dispute your statements about organized religion because they follow logic.

Your rants about the non-existence of a deity (in the universal sense) start to smell like the religious fanatics you so vehemently oppose. It really surprises me that your intellectual curiosity seems to be very lopsided. You keep repeating, and emphasising the "facts" that fit your paradigm, anything outside of it is labelled as "crazy talk". You certainly don't subscribe to the scientific method, because you've made up your mind before all data was considered.

Has it occurred to you that the parabel of the blind men and the elephant is really true and prophets throughout centuries have had a faint glimpse of ... (whatever deity tickles your fancy), but are unable to adequately put it into words? The underlying experience is real, but humans - at our current cognitive development - cannot grasp/quantify it and therefore make up BS.

Anyway, be well Lucifer ...



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 02:07 PM
link   
reply to post by AllIsOne
 



Your rants about the non-existence of a deity (in the universal sense) start to smell like the religious fanatics you so vehemently oppose.


I don't believe any atheists KNOW whether a source/creator/deity does or does not exist. Gnostic Atheism in this circumstance is irrational, it's as irrational as claiming you KNOW God DOES exist; there's 0 logical or empirical evidence.

It's quite plainly obvious that the God's of man made religion are man-made and thus fiction, thought and idea. Not fact. No "deity" intervenes in human affairs, volcanoes arn't God, Neptune doesn't exist and earthquakes and volcanoes are not "Punishment" from God. It's plainly obvious that this God doesn't exist. I would go as far to claim this God does NOT exist.

Agnosticism/Gnosticism - What you KNOW.
Atheism/Theism - What you believe or don't believe.


edit on 14/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:21 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 



It's quite plainly obvious that the God's of man made religion are man-made and thus fiction, thought and idea.

i thought like that once ...but upon further investigation, particularly the Mystics .......after going within, and investigating thought itself ..... suspending all pre-conceived notions and skepticism ...I actually came across ...or rather face to face with a an Infinite and Divine Being...... One who is beyond anything that is said of It....

I dont know how you get this "plainly obvious feature" except to do what I once did when I was an Atheist .....which was living in a rigid Bias box entirely based on surgically precise and emotionally-cold logic and reason ...especially when it came to what I once thought were fairy tales about a made up God....

Thankfully I was a philosophy buff and found folks like Parmenides, Empedocles, Socrates, Teilhard de Chardin amongst many others who all conclude that Logic and Reason are faculties that come from the Absolute and that we can use these faculties to finally conclude that there is an Absolute or God.....

They also discuss the destruction of all bias and points of view......



Not fact. No "deity" intervenes in human affairs, volcanoes arn't God, Neptune doesn't exist and earthquakes and volcanoes are not "Punishment" from God. It's plainly obvious that this God doesn't exist. I would go as far to claim this God does NOT exist.

Quite a claim with no backup ....

I have this theory that amongst people that inhabit this earth .....just like we have artists, poets, teachers, children, killers, lovers, philosophers ....we also have certain folks that are entirely and mechanically rigid and completely wrapped up in a dominantly mental framework.

With folks like this, even if God was to reveal himself and show them the heavens and vast infinite space ...they'd still abide by there rigid and unshakable self created Bias box. In this case there is really nothing anyone can do or say to destroy that Bias....

Thankfully however ...we have the great equalizer that is physical death, when all dross falls away ..yet crystal clear awareness continues on ......I wonder if it is then that this Bias Box is recreated and what happens to a soul after wards..... its got to be sight to be seen....

While I do not for One second doubt the existence of a heaven, even just based on the Logic of the greatest Philosophers in the World ....I gotta say that personally ....... I would love to just sit back and see the reactions on faces of Atheists' soul when they find themselves in the afterlife ....

That to me can never get old ....to just see that for the rest of eternity would in itself be priceless .....and not in any sadistic-egoic I told you so kind of way .....more so in a humorous child-like awe filled curiosity. When I look back on my own days of Atheism ....it was most def a sort of self created prison of self justified logic based skepticism that bared me from Real investigation of all things in life ...especially God.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 02:35 AM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


While I do understand where you are coming from, and I do agree to an extent, but where do you draw the line? I mean you say the danger of religious hypnosis but can't you put that label on anything? In example, a conservative extremist, communist following the works of marxist, an atheist who hates all religions, KKK, Buddhism history has violence, as well as Hinduism.

But I know you won't pick on Buddhism or Hinduism because you have some sort of connection to them or perhaps you're a pagan. And I know you will argue well when was the last time Buddhism or Hinduism exerted their dominance, to which I will reply they were beaten by England and kept down so they can't rise up and do what these Christian and Muslim nations are doing.

This is an endless argument in which every side has their valid points. You use Christianity and Islam because they are the 2 biggest religions but is every Christian and Muslim a violent person? That is the real question.

Humans have the ability to destroy, we have a need to seek power and dominance, and we are greedy in nature to secure our survival, it is not just Christians and Muslims.

This is happening EVERYWHERE! Stalin was he a Christian? Mao? Pot?

The only reason Christianity and Islam get a lot of crap is because humans are stupid and will follow any leader. In example, America followed Bush to war through propaganda and the utilization of the media. America is not a Christian nation because the Christians are divided into sects which are not united. America also has plenty of other religions and lack there of.

If Buddhism, Hinduism, or Paganism were the majority there will still be wars. If Atheism was the majority wars will still be waged. You can put a bow on a turd but it is still be a turd regardless of what you call it.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 03:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Lucifer777
 



Gnostic" type experience which you appear to be seeking through taking Vitamin C, sun gazing etc., though I have never personally tried such methods and am rather sceptical about them.

see thats my whole thing ......hey, you're a skeptic, and haven't personally tried such methods. Ok cool .....but on the basis of that, stem the rest of your points of view.

Whereas, it would be much more fitting and fair ....to try such methods, investigate them to see if there is anything there, and while doing so briefly suspend skepticism. If nothing there, then skepticism is substantiated. If something there .....the redefine points of view.


Well I have spent many years of my life pursuing such "gnostic" types experiences through alternative methods, however I simply don't believe that such experiences are universally beneficial, since such experiences can also turn a person into a raving religious fanatic.



That was my case, originally as an Atheist/Agnostic..... investigate everything with all P.O.V. temporarily suspended...... what I found upon investigation has totally blown me away.


Yes I have no doubt that certain types of gnostic experiences can be literally "mind blowing," however this can have both positive and negative aspects. To "blow" one's mind can also indicate the transformation into a deluded fanatic.




1: The Argument from Design. ......and frankly it is widely understood that these questions are simply "beyond" the limits of "pure reason."

Thats the point ......reason itself is limited ...however investigating/practicing spiritual methods, directly leads to subtle and and as of yet, unused or new faculties ...such as a faculty of transcendence which directly experiences reality as "No time" and as the ground of Being coming from a place that has always been. In these spiritualized faculties .......no time, uncreated, and "having always existed" ...make complete sense.


I have never had the conscious experience of "no time," neither has anyone else apparently. By "conscious" experience, obviously when I am asleep or unconscious I experience "no time" but time does not stop just because I sleep, and in each second that I consciously exist there is always a memory of the previous second.

Time is one of the necessary elements of physics; if there was no time, there would be no physics and no universe and no consciousness. If you did not experience time, you would not be conscious. I don't believe that the past and future exist alongside the present; I believe that the past and future no not exist and thus time travel is impossible, and I could only be proven wrong by a physicist, not by a "believer.".There is only this present moment which is existent, though certainly I do believe that there are other dimensions which exist alongside our current reality, but they all exist in the present.

Metaphysicians can ramble on incessantly about this subject, but there has never been any evidence that the past still exists and there has never been any evidence that the future exists; there is only the constant "now (i.e., the present), irrespective of any "gnostic experience" of timelessness; timelessness does not make sense; timelessness is non existence.



2: The argument from religious experience
All such experiences are entirely subjective and are not exclusive to any particular religion. Thus this is problematic and unsatisfying in terms of an argument for a particular definition of a deity.

However ....I think worth mentioning is that ......by investigating the core values of many religions, we will find the esoteric Mystics who discuss direct experience. These folks can take someone like yourself ....and systematically guide you into the state of direct experience ....all of which has nothing to do with beliefs/thoughts. And so it is, in a sense, a repeatable phenomenon.....

happened to me .....and I have also gotten folks, even a few atheist friends, to have glimpsed this Absolute reality ...even if for a few seconds. It is repeatable


Yes I have had a lifetime of such experiences, but such experiences are all totally subjective and differ from person to person based upon their memories, beliefs, their upbringing and religion. If a Hindu shaman, a Muslim and a Christian have gnostic experiences and Hanunam (the Hindu monkey god) appears to the Hinduu in a vision, Mohammad appears to the Muslim and the Virgin Mary appears to the Christian, such shamanic visions do not provide evidence for the objective existence of such beings, and although such experiences tend to reinforce the faith of the believers, such experiences are entirely subjective (i.e., they are only happening within the believers mind).

Apparently the topic of "shamanicc psychoactives" is forbidden on ATS, however as I have previously stated, the human body naturally produces '___'; it is a natural neuro-transmitter.

Consider:


'___' is naturally occurring in small amounts in rat brain, human cerebrospinal fluid, and other tissues of humans and other mammals. It may play a role in mediating the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences, religious visions and other mystical states.[96] A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher J. C. Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that '___' might be connected with visual dream phenomena: brain '___' levels would be periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind.[97] A new hypothesis proposed is that in addition to being involved in altered states of consciousness, endogenous '___' may be involved in the creation of normal waking states of consciousness. It is proposed that '___' and other endogenous hallucinogens mediate their neurological abilities by acting as neurotransmitters at a sub class of the trace amine receptors; a group of receptors found in the CNS where '___' and other hallucinogens have been shown to have activity. Wallach further proposes that in this way waking consciousness can be thought of as a controlled psychedelic experience. It is when the control of these systems becomes loosened and their behavior no longer correlates with the external world that the altered states arise.[81]

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting '___' research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the hypothesis that a massive release of '___' from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments[11] where the subjects were 'carried', 'probed', 'tested', 'manipulated', 'dismembered', 'taught', 'loved' and even 'raped' by these 'beings' (one could note the strong similarities of these bodily tests/invasions in other psychedelic experiences throughout time, outlined in Graham Hancock's "Supernatural"[98]).

en.wikipedia.org...



The '___' hypothesis suggests that not only dreaming but in fact "consciousness" itself may be produced by '___'. Normally the "hallucination" you are having is just a hallucination of the world around you which we all perceive, but dreams, dream like states and visions can also be produced, and as suggested in the above quotation, near death experiences, out of the body experiences and even the experience of being "abducted by aliens," or the appearance of reptilian type beings. It is not at all suggested that such experiences "objectively" happened; they only happened subjectively in people's minds.

Thus when a person claims "I had a born again experience" or "Jesus appeared to me" or "aliens kidnapped me," although such experiences may have "seemed" very real, they are simply tricks which the human consciousness can play.




Further we know that all human bodies produce the natural neuro-transmitter '___', and I consider it to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this produces religious type experiences.

There are plenty of studies with MRI scans of folks experiencing Enlightenment or Union with the Absolute and there is no signs of '___' release .......but there are areas of the Brain lit up ....that aren't normally lit up by folks that dont experience these things.

....so one can say ..."Ok so its just all neuro-based experience". Problem there is that we can bring people into a room, allow them to eat apples and see all the same areas of the Brain light up for that. But we can also say the same for those experiencing Union with this Divine Absolute .....It therefore creates, for now a paradox:

the God experience is real(therefor God is real) or brain based ....eating an apple is real or brain based.....


The brain is an electro chemical apparatus which "produces" consciousness; we cannot simply reduce it to either a piece of organic matter, an electrical apparatus or a chemical apparatus, since it is all three; consciousness is still a great mystery and it is the existence and experience of consciousness which convinces me that materialism is a flawed philosophy; consciousness may be "produced" by the brain but it is certainly not material; consciousness cannot be weighed or measured; consciousness itself is probably the greatest "miracle" of the universe; consciousness can observe the laws of physics, but it cannot be measured by them; it is metaphysical (above physics), but it can also produce many strange effects which are unreliable in terms of understanding reality. Our psychiatric institutions are full of people suffering from religious forms of schizophrenia; just because someone has dreams, visions or hallucinations that they are being chased by demons, it does not mean that they actually are; even Mao Tse Tung believed that he was fighting a "Capitalist demon" and he was not speaking metaphorically; such are the tricks that the mind plays on us.

Probably one of the world's best known conspiracy theorists, David Icke, has related the experiences in his books of people who claim to have seen various world leaders "shape-shift" into reptiles; I have had "similar (though not identical)" experiences myself, but I wise enough to know that such hallucinations are entirely subjective and are not a good indicator of reality.

I recently returned from Africa which is full of Muslims, Christians and traditional witch doctors, and they are all as bad as each other in my opinion, however particularly among the Christians and witchdoctors, the belief in demonic possession is widespread, and the consequences of this belief can be murderous. When a religious schizophrenic accuses another person of being "possessed by demons" or (to use the David Icke terminology) being a "shape shifting reptile" it does not signify anything other than the insanity of the person who is making such accusations, which in Africa can often end in the murder of the accused person.





The Gnostic Experience - Unfortunately in our religious world, most of the "models" of a "good" person, such as Mohammad and Jesus are simply models of religious schizophrenics;

Beg to differ ......I found that these states that one comes across due to Spiritual practice ....calms the mind, brings on a certain clarity which would include Wholeness, ego Death, Self Mastery, Selflessness, and above all things a Transcendent Love.


To restate, such experiences can also lead one to a state of delusion; commonly Gnostics tend to think of themselves as somehow "superior" to others, just because they have visionary or hallucinogenic experiences, but a study of religious based schizophrenic seems to offer evidence to the contrary.

With regards to "transcendent love," love is certainly a "transcendent" emotional experience, albeit one which is driven by endorphins (natural opiates produced by the body), however often when religionists speak of "loving God" it is my view that they are merely deluded, one cannot really "love" a being which has no perceivable existence, and by "no perceivable existence" I am not making an argument for atheism, I am merely stating the fact, that even if She (god) exists, She does not lend herself to empirical observation. Of course it is possible to some extent to "love" a fantasy lover in the realm of the imagination, but this is hardly "real" love; it is simply a delusion.

"Si vis amari, ama"- "If you wish to be loved, love." (Seneca)

If you want to be loved, you have to be a loving person; that is a general "Golden Rule" and it has nothing to do with "Gnostic experiences" or loving some fantasy deity which is the figment of imagination.


Spirituality is the next step in Human evolution .....for all to be Buddhas/Christs .....that is the real Enlightenment age


No. The fictional "Christ" of the Gospels was portrayed as a religious schizophrenic, a fake healer and an exorcist; following such a model of "insanity" has only brought humankind to a state of collective insanity; such models must be discarded for the sake of the collective sanity of humankind. The terms "Christ" and "Messiah" also refer to a theocratic dictator and that is not a good political model; we have already had centuries of theocratic dictatorship which have created hell on earth.

With regards to Buddha, he was anyway an atheist and certainly a preferable model to the Hindu religious fanatics, especially since Hinduism is a racist human sacrifice cult, but he was still obsessed with religious morality and the sins of restriction; he is not a good model for the modern world.




I am thus left only with Nietzsche's anti-gnosticism and the idea that the superior man (and woman) is a modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical philosopher

Anti-gnosticism is now an impossibility for myself having experienced "Gnosis." It is the most sensible, logical, and ultimate next stage for human evolution ...

"modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" means absolutely nothing when its all relative, can be hijacked when drunk, on drugs, influenced by lust, or subject to falter based on a number of things


The problem with the proponents of "absolute moral values" is that they generally refer to some ancient and primitive religious text or to their own personal morality which they seek to impose on others, and which is often influenced by the extent to which they have been subjected to religious hypnosis and indoctrination.


Morality is simply a discernment of good and evil, and in my view the best way to arrive at such a judgement is to utilise human reason and intuition; it is a philosophical question and nothing to do with the ramblings of religious schizophrenics who claim that "god" or the "gods" have spoken to them.



...who has entirely abandoned the religious quest, forsaken the savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion.

I can't really argue with that ....however I would say to continue and make the priority in life, an awakening to Gnosis/Transcendence ......to be completely beyond and above "modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" ...which is possible in Gnosis.

Once the direct experience of the Absolute is had ....it seen that "savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion." is something that was projected onto the Absolute by folks who never had the direct knowledge of the Absolute...... and with that insight, One merely rests in the Grand Gnosis of the Absolute and continues the Evolutionary stage into a living Christ or Buddha.


"Beyond Good and Evil"

There are two basic models of the "Ubermensch (superior man - and woman)" and "Untermensch (inferior man - subhuman)." One is the religious model and the other is the Nietzschean / Thelemic model. These two models are irreconcilable and anti-thetical (the opposite idea) to each other.

By "Beyond Good and Evil," one must consider for example the animal kingdom; we do not define animals as being sinful or being evil. We might point to a horse and say "that is a perfect horse," if it is a horse which lives perfectly in accordance with it's nature and if it is in perfect mental and physical health. However when religious fanatics refer to a "perfect person" they refer to an archetypal model of religious schizophrenia such as the fictional Jesus. This simply creates collective insanity; it is "not" a model of a person who has perfect "mental health."

Nietzsche's view of the "superior" person is not a racial perspective; it merely refers to a modern, philosophical, rational, literate, ethical human being who has abandoned the slave morality of religion and who is a sacrilegious (anti-religious) co-conspirator.

When you refer to "above "modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" ...which is possible in Gnosis, that is part of the problem, not the solution; certainly it is possible for a Gnostic to consider themselves "above" all such things, but those are simply part of the symptoms of religious schizophrenia.

Lux


edit on 15-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Formatting



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by AllIsOne
 



Your rants about the non-existence of a deity (in the universal sense) start to smell like the religious fanatics you so vehemently oppose.


I don't believe any atheists KNOW whether a source/creator/deity does or does not exist. Gnostic Atheism in this circumstance is irrational, it's as irrational as claiming you KNOW God DOES exist; there's 0 logical or empirical evidence.


Unfortunately, since there is a chemical basis to religous hysteria, being an atheist or agnostic does not protect a person from the possibility of "gnostic experiences," "religious hysteria" and "conversion experiences," however educating onself regarding the chemical nature of such experiences, the nature of the brain and how consciousness can produce such experiences can be a general protection against religious hysteria, since if and when such experiences occur, they can be rationalised.

It has been theorised that the religious hysteria of the ancient world may well have been caused by diet. Many forms of food and food mould and fungi contain psychoactive properties. Food in ancient times was often harvested and stored and there was ample opportunity for food mould to occur when food was not properly dried and protected from humidity.


Ergotism

Ergotism is the effect of long-term ergot poisoning, traditionally due to the ingestion of the alkaloids produced by the Claviceps purpurea fungus which infects rye and other cereals, and more recently by the action of a number of ergoline-based drugs. It is also known as ergotoxicosis, ergot poisoning and Saint Anthony's Fire. Ergot poisoning is a proposed explanation of bewitchment.

Historically, eating grain products contaminated with the fungus Claviceps purpurea... caused ergotism.

....the alkaloids can also pass through lactation from mother to child, causing ergotism in infants.

.........Epidemics of the disease were identified throughout history,

Salem witchcraft accusations

The convulsive symptoms that can be a result of consuming ergot-tainted rye have also been said to be the cause of accusations of “bewitchment” that spurred the Salem witch trials. This medical explanation for the theory of “bewitchment” is one first propounded by Linnda R. Caporael in 1976 in an article in Science. In her article, Caporael points out that the convulsive symptoms, such as crawling sensations in the skin, tingling in the fingers, vertigo, tinnitus aurium, headaches, disturbances in sensation, hallucination, painful muscular contractions, vomiting and diarrhea, as well as psychological symptoms, such as mania, melancholia, psychosis and delirium, were all symptoms reported in the Salem witchcraft records. Caporael also notes the abundance of rye in the region as well as perfect climate conditions for the tainting of rye

en.wikipedia.org...





It's quite plainly obvious that the God's of man made religion are man-made and thus fiction, thought and idea. Not fact. No "deity" intervenes in human affairs, volcanoes arn't God, Neptune doesn't exist and earthquakes and volcanoes are not "Punishment" from God. It's plainly obvious that this God doesn't exist. I would go as far to claim this God does NOT exist.


Yes it is plainly obvious that the God of the theists does not exist; no matter how much one prays for a miracle, such miracles do not occur. One cannot stop a volcano erupting by praying, nor can one cure leprosy or blindess or "raise the dead (as alleged by Biblical authors);" nor can one cure physical or mental illness by exorcism; though exorcism is still big business, particularly in Africa and among evangical Christians in general.

If there is a "god of the theists" who is all powerful and who can intervene in human history and who is capable of curing leprosy and blindess, She is clearly malevolent, since if She is "good," the question is begged as to why She does not intervene to stop natural and moral evil.

If you had a child who was starving and you had the power to feed that child, and you allowed that child to suffer and starve and be slowly tortured to death through the lack of nutrition, then you would be considered to be evil, and yet the god of the theists has allowed hundreds of millions of people to suffer, to be enslaved, to be tortured and to be starved, etc

It has been estimated that there are always about 200 million people (predominately women and children) who are on the verge of starvation, and yet neither the god of the theists, nor the theists themselves appear to have the will to resolve this.

Triumph of the (Human) will.

Despite the fact that I tend to "believe" that the human consciousness is a product of some kind of creative intelligence, I simply cannot reconcile the suffering of humankind with a "good" god. If a New Heaven (the subjective experience) and a New Earth (the economic world) are to be created, it will have be the product of human will. Unfortunately part of what interferes with this process is the belief in "God's Will." According to the US opinion polls 40% of the US population appear to believe that Jesus is coming back soon. It is this "waiting on God" to solve all the problems of the world which is part of the "problem" not the "solution."

On the other hand humanists entirely understand that changing the world and creating economic heaven on earth has to do with the application of human will, and that creating psychological heaven on earth has to do with the abandonment of religion, religious delusions and religious morality.

Even if there is some of kind of creative intelligence behind the universe's existence, She clearly does not intervene in human affairs, so I think it to be of no advantage to consider Her existence; in fact if such a being does exist, it may well be a disadvantage to consider Her existence, since She is clearly either an "evil" Mother or a Mother who simply does not care about the suffering of Her many children.

Lux



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 07:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


But I know you won't pick on Buddhism or Hinduism because you have some sort of connection to them or perhaps you're a pagan.


Well essentially I consider Islam and Christianity to be the major religious threats in the world; adherents of both cults have influence over governments, armies and nuclear weapons; both have genocidal and apocalyptic End Times prophecies which predict their prevailance of their war gods over other religions and both are not just religions, but also systems of law which necessitate theocratic tyranny.

When it comes to Hnduism, this is world's third largest religion and it is a curse on the Hindu proletariat which justifies racism, tyranny and which was originally a human sacrifice cult. The allegedly "sacred" Vedic scriptures are no more sacred than Mein Kampf, the Bible or the Koran. The Indians do of course have nuclear weapons, but I consider it unlikley that they would ever use them on the Western world, though I would not put it past the Israelis and Americans to nuke India in a false flag scenario to incite the Indians to nuke the Muslims; in the world of false flag and balck operation scenarios, almost anything is possible.

Despite the vast majority of the Japanese population considering themselves to be Buddhists it did not stop them from committing genocide against the Chinese and Koreans. Despite the fact that Buddha opposed religious racism (i.e., the Hindu caste system), the Japanese have a tendency to consider themselves to be the "Master Race" of the oriental world and are fiercely nationalistic.

Buddhism is certainly a religion but Buddha himself was an atheist, an anti-religionist, an anti-racist and an economic Communist / collectivist. I certainly consider him to have been a great person in his time, especially in comparison to the Hindu religious fanatics of his era, whom he clearly despised; however I think that he would turn over in his grave regarding the Buddhist religion; he most certainly did not wish to be worshipped, he did not construct idols of himself, nor did he build temples. I consider him more of an ascetic philosopher. Asceticism is essentially the denial of natural desires, primarily erotic desire; I consider this to be blasphemy against the gods of nature; we are creatures of desire and pleasure; however Buddhism is an otherwise relatively "harmless" religion, particularly as they do not have a genocidal war god as the Biblical and Islamic fanatics do, and there are no executable offences in Buddhism for breaking rather silly religious laws which seek to restrict and enslave human nature.


This is an endless argument in which every side has their valid points. You use Christianity and Islam because they are the 2 biggest religions but is every Christian and Muslim a violent person? That is the real question.


I refer you to the OP essay and to the Milgram and Joshua experiments. I doubt that any of the people in those experiments who were willing to tortur other people or to justify genocide would have considered themselves to be sadists. The effects of social and religious conditioning to obey authority (including religious authorities and the authority of God) is rather subtle. Hitler was not "personally" a violent person who got into personal fist fights, but he was certainly willing to justify war and genocide; it is probably the same for many American Christians and for many Muslims, for whom even if they are not personally violent, they are willing to justify war and genocide.



Humans have the ability to destroy, we have a need to seek power and dominance, and we are greedy in nature to secure our survival, it is not just Christians and Muslims.


We are also social creatures and natural tribalists; we survive better in a tribal society where all persons co-operate for the common good and the benefit of all, whereas Capitalism conditions us to be selfish and to seek our own person benefit, even if it is necessary to exploit or enslave others.


This is happening EVERYWHERE! Stalin was he a Christian? Mao? Pot?


Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all totalitarian dictators, as have been numerous Christian kings throughout history, however theocratic tyranny is inbuilt into the Islamic and Biblical religion, which are both systems of government, whereas the vast majority of Socialists are either Republicans or Anarchist syndicalists which is certainly progressive in comparison to the totalitarian ideologies of Islam, Christianity and Hindusim.


America is not a Christian nation because the Christians are divided into sects which are not united.


They are waiting on a global Neofascist dictator (the king of kings) to appear and save them all; that is really a rather dangerous ideology, and they are mostly anti-Communists / anti-Socialists; they are really a major part of what is wrong with the world.
.


If Buddhism, Hinduism, or Paganism were the majority there will still be wars. If Atheism was the majority wars will still be waged


Paganism is not really a religion; the British Neopagans are really just rather independent diverse New Age spiritualists with their own eclectic beliefs. I am not suggesting that there would be no wars if there were no religions, but the Biblical and Islamic faiths both have war gods which demand war against the devotees of competing deities. Most wars are anyway fought for by economic, political, religious and military elites for economic reasons and religion is just an excuse to drive the masses. The Capitalist / Communist / Socialist ideologies are also militant, but Socialists and Communists "must" be militant be necessity since the Capitalists are entirely militant.

Lux


edit on 15-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:37 AM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 



it is the latter "Gnostic" type experience which you appear to be seeking through taking Vitamin C, sun gazing etc., though I have never personally tried such methods and am rather sceptical about them.


I don't usually take vit C before sleep, its hard on my system, since I use the powder, so I usually take it off and on for a while, and often whenever I'm not feeling good, and warm up some juice with coconut oil in it and then add the C, several grams. If I'm not well then several more grams later, and I bounce back quickly and don't need antibiotics.

Sungazing is wonderful. Meditation is as well.

The only things in life that truly matter are the inspirational "experiences" that are subjective. The rest are nothing, they don't count, save for putting relationships in order and how we treat each other.

My experiences and memories started very young. If it was the case of every right brained experience being schizo or brain chemical disorder, then viva la inspiration even if it was madness. However, the strange things about these "subjective" experiences, is that they have been shared, growing up with others, even a whole campsite full of witnesses, and family, along with more unusual things I experienced, to my children and now older son, 19, who has had missing time and called me out for sitings.

Another point to notice, though in some ways it takes being more awake, and having your light turned a little higher perhaps, or consciousness, is that you will have recognition within, and be nudged or drawn by what you need to. There are no coincidences, everything has its timing and place, not referring to anything negative of course. Not only that but good comes from Good and the by their fruits they are known.

However based on your mentioning things related to melatonin, this was brought up, for I had this brief hope maybe you were seeking yourself. Those who do, find what they have sought. Especially if they're doing so with love and goodness in their heart, compassion, and kindness, because the shadow is distortions or akin to the mud pile.

At every moment we are giving permissions to have our consciousness amped up or dimmed or for Family to be assisting or for negatives to have more access to us, depending on our thoughts, words, actions and even awareness.


This is essentially a theist's argument, however Hindus may report that their faith is confirmed by visionary and shamanic experiences with, say for example, Hanunam, the Hindu monkey god, or Shiva, or whatever, and Christians may report that they receive visions or shamanic experiences with "Jesus," and inmates of psychiatric institutions may report that they have the experience that demons are chasing or possessing them, or that "God" or the "gods" are communicating with them, or you may claim to have such experiences by taking vitamin C or by sungazing.


No, not from taking C. I do recommend it for health and pineal health as well though. Interesting that you bring up India, shamanism, and pineal all at the same time. Ingo Swann does speak volumes of the vedas:

www.biomindsuperpowers.com... Tons of his essays here, and the TM and vedas were all apart of the remote veiwing program along with the Monroe Institute as well.

Joe Mcmoneagle discusses this.

This kind of info is about 3 years of research for me, though an experiencer since preschool years, I'm a late bloomer for waking up and awarness, but a diligent one, who can connect dots extremely fast, and has always used more than 5 senses.

Everyone here who seeks, will find, who meditates, skywatches, prays, sets intentions before dreamtime, will find. In fact waking up and pushing out of the box we're in here is part of the tests for being here.



All such experiences are entirely subjective and are not exclusive to any particular religion. Thus this is problematic and unsatisfying in terms of an argument for a particular definition of a deity. Further we know that all human bodies produce the natural neuro-transmitter '___', and I consider it to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this produces religious type experiences. …


You have an opinion on why '___' production occurs. Its definitely a gateway transmitter, no doubt about that, but its not the source of inspiration. Though I have to say, when all the sitings began, due to those I knew whose pineal seemed a little too wide open, I would never have had faith in myself, or the sitings, or the reality, I would have sat on the fence and related it to more left brain answers myself. In fact, the experiences would happen, and I would reject them, walk outside and then see the crafts. My son would them too. Others he would me out for. And we're not going into this here either, but I will say this, two people cannot share the same contact or experience, via a neuro transmitter.



None of these arguments are really satisfying and they do not "prove" the existence of a Creator, nor do they prove the truth of one definition of a deity over another. …


Religions are loaded full of controls and distortions and dark squares that instruct people to not go within, to not meditate or seek for answers, to obey instead, and give their power away to religious and political leaders. Also to glorify war and make it out that God is behind this, or any form of smiting people, which couldn't be further from the truth and these are very significant traps for earth.

Earth is a school, we're the ones who imprison ourselves here for a time, though its temporal even at that.

Most of what you read is heavily distorted and also, promoting dark square ideas. Despite the light being scattered and hidden you can experience light changing or transforming words or taking the meaning and transforming it when you start to seek and ask for you sight to be healed for the light within you and all others to be turned up, and for the Spirit of Peace and Love to be with every man, women and child on this planet, in the cosmos, and all entities of all polarities, that all may recover and make U-Turns in their lives and be filled with love for one another, able to be gifts to each other. This isn't tied into a religion, but is spiritual in nature.



I am thus left only with Nietzsche's anti-gnosticism and the idea that the superior man (and woman) is a modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical philosopher who has entirely abandoned the religious quest, forsaken the savage and primitive gods of our ancestors and abandoned the slave morality of religion.


Science has a cap on it that can only grow into more metaphysical and quantum ways, especially studies into Infinity itself. There should be not so far from the ethics of humanism or philisophy as Quantum Metaphysics Spirituality. But athiesm is similar to religions in that they also have a credo to not search within, when there is nothing more important, than challenge everything you believe about the nature of reality and consciousness itself and push the limits on it.

Warm wishes!
edit on 15-2-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by Lucifer777

Well essentially I consider Islam and Christianity to be the major religious threats in the world; adherents of both cults have influence over governments, armies and nuclear weapons; both have genocidal and apocalyptic End Times prophecies which predict their prevailance of their war gods over other religions and both are not just religions, but also systems of law which necessitate theocratic tyranny.


I think humanity in itself is a major threat to itself. However, when was the last time you seen a "civilized" Christian kill another for their religion beliefs? Should there be a war I think more Christians will stand against war than the latter, I know I will be one to rise against the wars as well as my family.

And not every Christian believes in the end time prophecies. I can't speak the same about Muslims because I really don't know their faith and beliefs.

You could also claim war gods but the New Testament doesn't deal with killing my neighbours. The Old Testament is just that, old. That is like saying because the constitution says to rise up against the government I will tomorrow. Things must be justified and you must be under serious threat to pick up the sword.



When it comes to Hnduism, this is world's third largest religion and it is a curse on the Hindu proletariat which justifies racism, tyranny and which was originally a human sacrifice cult. The allegedly "sacred" Vedic scriptures are no more sacred than Mein Kampf, the Bible or the Koran. The Indians do of course have nuclear weapons, but I consider it unlikley that they would ever use them on the Western world, though I would not put it past the Israelis and Americans to nuke India in a false flag scenario to incite the Indians to nuke the Muslims; in the world of false flag and balck operation scenarios, almost anything is possible.


Anything is possible. I don't speak for the western world or any nation so there is always a chance of a nuclear war. However, the nuclear war or any war would have nothing to do with religion. If anything, it would have to do with depopulation and earning money for the military industrial complex.



Despite the vast majority of the Japanese population considering themselves to be Buddhists it did not stop them from committing genocide against the Chinese and Koreans. Despite the fact that Buddha opposed religious racism (i.e., the Hindu caste system), the Japanese have a tendency to consider themselves to be the "Master Race" of the oriental world and are fiercely nationalistic.

I consider him more of an ascetic philosopher. Asceticism is essentially the denial of natural desires, primarily erotic desire; I consider this to be blasphemy against the gods of nature; we are creatures of desire and pleasure; however Buddhism is an otherwise relatively "harmless" religion, particularly as they do not have a genocidal war god as the Biblical and Islamic fanatics do, and there are no executable offences in Buddhism for breaking rather silly religious laws which seek to restrict and enslave human nature.


Well any scripture can be taken and manipulated. Buddha might have been against a deity but it doesn't really mean he was right. He had the same thoughts as Jesus but he spoke of a no God and Jesus spoke about a God. Otherwise the message was to spread love and crush hate. People have taken those words and focused in on the negative aspects as humans always do.

Again you equate the old testament laws with the new testament. Remember that when the Bible was written it was a time when people owned slaves, they were inhumane in treatments, and it was a terrible time. Remember the Jews were partly influenced by the laws of Hammurabi which were very cruel and were very against slaves opposing their masters or not working properly. The old testament was there to make it less harsh on disobedience. I know that now it looks harsh but you are comparing modern worlds vs. old.

You must also ask yourself how many fanatics do Christians have? If you come to North America there are some fanatics but there are more free thinkers. What about Europe? England? Fanatics are stuck in the old thinking but I think we have more modern thinkers than old.


I refer you to the OP essay and to the Milgram and Joshua experiments. I doubt that any of the people in those experiments who were willing to tortur other people or to justify genocide would have considered themselves to be sadists. The effects of social and religious conditioning to obey authority (including religious authorities and the authority of God) is rather subtle. Hitler was not "personally" a violent person who got into personal fist fights, but he was certainly willing to justify war and genocide; it is probably the same for many American Christians and for many Muslims, for whom even if they are not personally violent, they are willing to justify war and genocide.

Good point. However I think many of the young generation are more followers of the constitution and less followers of fanaticism. Humans are stupid. So even if the world had no religions all you need is one strong leader and one good speech to invade the rest of the world. There are many ways of doing that, in example,
false flag operations have nothing to do with religion but they can successfully bring us to wars.



We are also social creatures and natural tribalists; we survive better in a tribal society where all persons co-operate for the common good and the benefit of all, whereas Capitalism conditions us to be selfish and to seek our own person benefit, even if it is necessary to exploit or enslave others.

I beg to differ. I would like to point that many tribes have conquered their neighbours to enslave and steal their food and treasures. You can look to Africa, the Middle East, the Neolithic era, Europe, and etc. A perfect example is the Vikings who were not Christians nor Muslims.
[quote
They are waiting on a global Neofascist dictator (the king of kings) to appear and save them all; that is really a rather dangerous ideology, and they are mostly anti-Communists / anti-Socialists; they are really a major part of what is wrong with the world.

Have you done a proper survey to see how many are waiting for the King of Kings? I won't argue that a false flag could happen and it could succeed due to the majority intelligence. However, any people can be manipulated into believing they must go to war. We are survivalists and we still have tribal instincts. Tribal instinct isn't to live in harmony but to get food and survive by any means necessary.


Paganism is not really a religion; the British Neopagans are really just rather independent diverse New Age spiritualists with their own eclectic beliefs. I am not suggesting that there would be no wars if there were no religions, but the Biblical and Islamic faiths both have war gods which demand war against the devotees of competing deities. Most wars are anyway fought for by economic, political, religious and military elites for economic reasons and religion is just an excuse to drive the masses. The Capitalist / Communist / Socialist ideologies are also militant, but Socialists and Communists "must" be militant be necessity since the Capitalists are entirely militant.

Lux


edit on 15-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis


That is debatable. You are just adding New Age thinking and saying it isn't a religion but it is defined differently on books. The fact is that it is a religion just like Christianity and Islam but it encompasses polytheistic religion rather than monotheistic. Whichever way you put it and label it, it is still a religion.

The Bible God doesn't want you to pick up the sword and kill because that would be contradictory to the 10 commandments and Jesus' message of love. However, am I going to base my beliefs and life solely on the fallacy of the human induced bible? No. Many Christians don't even read the old testament and don't even know what it is about. They don't know the periods which it was written in nor the people who wrote it. It was written when the Jews were at war with everyone around them and so they needed the extra motivation to fight the invaders. I think the old testament had a lot of good propaganda which helped the Jews conquer. I don't think Christians should base their thoughts on the old testament and I think scriptures need revision to meet our times today. However, labeling paganism as not being a religion, I think, is not the right definition. It isn't organized now but it has the potential to get organized like the Norse-Vikings.

While I do agree that Communism should be the way to go I know we can't go that route without someone trying to become a tyrant dictator. It has happened in history and will happen again in the future, it is who we are.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:48 AM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 



The brain is an electro chemical apparatus which "produces" consciousness; we cannot simply reduce it to either a piece of organic matter, an electrical apparatus or a chemical apparatus, since it is all three; consciousness is still a great mystery and it is the existence and experience of consciousness which convinces me that materialism is a flawed philosophy; consciousness may be "produced" by the brain but it is certainly not material; consciousness cannot be weighed or measured; consciousness itself is probably the greatest "miracle" of the universe; consciousness can observe the laws of physics, but it cannot be measured by them;

well thats good to know ...Thought I had you pinned. You sure proved that assuming anything about anyone is counter-productive.

On top of this I would like to add that besides the levels of consciousness such as sleep, awake, and subconsciousness .....there is a 4th state which is the source of Consciousness itself ......which Ultimately is a all pervading consciousness that is Everywhere and Nondual. This is the God that I refer to. We are all inherently linked to that Ocean of Being. And I most def agree that this can be approached outside of religion ......however upon this discovery it makes religions make sense (at least the esoteric core).

Back then they would say God. Today they would say the all pervading and interlinked Ocean of consciousness that is the source of all individual consciousness. And I even foresee science proving this one day.



The '___' hypothesis suggests that not only dreaming but in fact "consciousness" itself may be produced by '___'. Normally the "hallucination" you are having is just a hallucination of the world around you which we all perceive, but dreams, dream like states and visions can also be produced, and as suggested in the above quotation, near death experiences, out of the body experiences and even the experience of being "abducted by aliens," or the appearance of reptilian type beings. It is not at all suggested that such experiences "objectively" happened; they only happened subjectively in people's minds. Thus when a person claims "I had a born again experience"

I can speak only for myself and say this. I investigated Christianity from all different angles, even got baptized. Eventually after that Baptism, all the mystical experiences began to happen and they have for the last, almost 10 years now, been entirely permanent features..... I would go so far to say that these features definitely give a person an advantage in life for many reasons such as: psychological wholeness, a transcendence of all psychological issues (or being beyond them), a direct seeing that the mind/personality/I complex is not really who I am but more so a culturally created function, loss of all fear of death/disease, and most importantly access to this ocean of consciousness.

You still say '___' ...but having perceived that ocean of consciousness it seems to be prior to any effects of the brain.


To restate, such experiences can also lead one to a state of delusion; commonly Gnostics tend to think of themselves as somehow "superior" to others, just because they have visionary or hallucinogenic experiences, but a study of religious based schizophrenic seems to offer evidence to the contrary.

yes the "superiority" issue is definitely at hand and is called spiritual pride. I myself was at one time guilty of this and took some time to equalize. However now there is a seeing that I am no better or superior to you. At the same time I cannot possibly deny that functioning with these mystical experiences and uncovered faculties is absolutely a superior mode of operating in this life and seems to be the next logical evolutionary step.

Its like everything is amplified, intuition, conscience, foresight, amongst a vast array of others which prior to investigating God ..were not there. And now in these states, it is seen that complete self mastery/self control is at hand ...whereas prior to that ..self mastery would have been impossible.

So yes Im guilty ...these states/modes are superior and yes it can delude the ego into thinking it itself is now superior to others....thankfully there is a built in safety mechanism which works like this: In this superior mode of being .....it comes with a but in ego destroyer, which is entirely necessary to eventually slide into the ocean of consciousness.


With regards to "transcendent love," love is certainly a "transcendent" emotional experience, albeit one which is driven by endorphins (natural opiates produced by the body), however often when religionists speak of "loving God" it is my view that they are merely deluded, one cannot really "love" a being which has no perceivable existence, and by "no perceivable existence" I am not making an argument for atheism, I am merely stating the fact, that even if She (god) exists, She does not lend herself to empirical observation. Of course it is possible to some extent to "love" a fantasy lover in the realm of the imagination, but this is hardly "real" love; it is simply a delusion.

thats the thing ...this has mystical implications not entirely understood by science..... Loving God results in a sort of spiritual technique. AT 1st one just Loves God ...which is this huge unknowable mystery. In this Love, lots of inner changes take place, the ego takes a back seat, new faculties arrive and transform a person, and eventually this act of just loving the Unknown .......presents itself in such a way that the person then perceives the source of their own Love.

This Love comes from a subtly perceivable place from within ....and slipping in there ...one eventually slips into the Ocean of consciousness which results then into someone perceiving an Absolute God ...which will happen to be that Ocean of consciousness.

All of which can be broken down quite easily by science .....but we are just not there yet because all of which I talk about has been shunned by a majority based materialist science. We are just in the last decade starting to study consciousness itself and it is here that eventually God will be proven. (although the end result wont be some guy in a cloud with a beard striking down lightning bolts at sinners) The findings will not only shock the skeptics but will also shock exoteric religions causing them for the most part to crumble.


If you want to be loved, you have to be a loving person; that is a general "Golden Rule" and it has nothing to do with "Gnostic experiences" or loving some fantasy deity which is the figment of imagination.

Thats the cool thing ....slipping into and experiencing an Infinite consciousness has nothing to do with imaginary belief.


No. The fictional "Christ" of the Gospels was portrayed as a religious schizophrenic, a fake healer and an exorcist; following such a model of "insanity" has only brought humankind to a state of collective insanity; such models must be discarded for the sake of the collective sanity of humankind.

I would say more so that people's interpretations of what Christ is/was .....is the single most dangerous factor that can lead to all sorts of trouble.

I think the issue here is that you have already made your definition for Christ and have stuck with that, preventing you from further investigation. Whereas upon my investigations I came across the exact same states and realities he was referring to ...leaving us in a conundrum.


The terms "Christ" and "Messiah" also refer to a theocratic dictator and that is not a good political model; we have already had centuries of theocratic dictatorship which have created hell on earth.

Yes the model has been tried and failed for the most part ...but thats because really how many folks out there are enlightened and whole? Even Socrates talked about the Philosopher Kings being the best rulers......

Ideally this would be the best option. A complete individual who is master of self, incorruptible, sees all points of view equally, selfless, etc. Socrates was enlightened and I also foresee a Golden era in the future where these Philosopher Kings will rule.


With regards to Buddha, he was anyway an atheist and certainly a preferable model to the Hindu religious fanatics, especially since Hinduism is a racist human sacrifice cult, but he was still obsessed with religious morality and the sins of restriction; he is not a good model for the modern world.

Buddha was all about merging into the Absolute. It was impossible for him to say that the Absolute was God because by having this Union with God ...at that point there is only that Ocean of Consciousness. If there is only the Ocean as the Absolute Truth ...then it makes it rather difficult to come back and say ..."hey you are here and the ocean is There." if that makes sense.

Regardless there was a Way that he was and he was a proponent of that Way.



The problem with the proponents of "absolute moral values" is that they generally refer to some ancient and primitive religious text or to their own personal morality which they seek to impose on others, and which is often influenced by the extent to which they have been subjected to religious hypnosis and indoctrination.

agreed


Morality is simply a discernment of good and evil, and in my view the best way to arrive at such a judgement is to utilise human reason and intuition; it is a philosophical question and nothing to do with the ramblings of religious schizophrenics who claim that "god" or the "gods" have spoken to them.

However "discernment of good and evil" is relative to so many things, so easily subject to corruption..... Is subject to ones own strengths/weakness and vices/virtues. All of which also has an effect on reason and intuition.

Whereas in spirituality ...the goal being Union with the Absolute ...the outcome of that results in complete clarity of intuition, clarity of conscience, clarity of reason .....all of which become amplified and much more easily accessible. And as a result of mastery of self (on the way to Union with the Absolute)...it becomes impossible for any of those above mentioned relativities to cloud or muck up the clarity of reason, intuition, conscience.


By "Beyond Good and Evil," one must consider for example the animal kingdom; we do not define animals as being sinful or being evil. We might point to a horse and say "that is a perfect horse," if it is a horse which lives perfectly in accordance with it's nature and if it is in perfect mental and physical health. However when religious fanatics refer to a "perfect person" they refer to an archetypal model of religious schizophrenia such as the fictional Jesus. This simply creates collective insanity; it is "not" a model of a person who has perfect "mental health."

Yeah but you say this in a world where the majority of views are coming from folks who havent reached the state of a Jesus or Buddha. It is a rare feat indeed put it is entirely possible.

So we have a collective who wants to be like Jesus ...but most never get there, and the other parts who say that it is schizophrenia!!! I think that were you to experience the State that a Jesus or Buddha was in, it would be impossible for you to hold your current position ...because it would be seen as clarity and operating from a state of the Ocean of consciousness and Love.



Nietzsche's view of the "superior" person is not a racial perspective; it merely refers to a modern, philosophical, rational, literate, ethical human being who has abandoned the slave morality of religion and who is a sacrilegious (anti-religious) co-conspirator.

I believe the super-man notions are reconcilable. It is a marriage of the two. To reach the Absolute ...it makes "modern, philosophical, rational, literate, ethical human being who has abandoned the slave morality of religion and who is a sacrilegious (anti-religious) co-conspirator. " ..more accessible and clear.

I dont see Christ as having created a religion. I see Christ as one who was forced to use the language of Judaism to make his points to them..... that he was showing super-man and Completely whole way of life, having access to both the world here, the Ocean of consciousness, as well as stuff that goes on in the afterlife.

Then here comes everyone else making a religion out of it all.



When you refer to "above "modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" ...which is possible in Gnosis, that is part of the problem, not the solution; certainly it is possible for a Gnostic to consider themselves "above" all such things, but those are simply part of the symptoms of religious schizophrenia.

Well if there is an ocean of consciousness ...then that ocean itself is definitively above and beyond all of these individualized aspects of the whole...... and having access to the whole ...would automatically make one beyond "modern, rational, educated, scientific, ethical" ...as well as exoteric religious schizophrenia and prior to any belief structures.

It is clearly seen from here that my true nature is not the mind and its thoughts, belief-systems, etc. It is merely a tool of communication. It is seen that this Ocean of consciousness is where we all come from, it trumps all things, and eventually when science catches up ...it will prove this Ocean as well.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 01:49 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 



No "deity" intervenes in human affairs


what a lie! but you "just don't know" either way right?
whats that word you like to use-"derp" is it?
this is for any that may find this interesting (being I've already told you and some others)

one night in a literal life saving exact moment in time after I had picked up a Gideon NT that my "high school sweetheart" had left on the kitchen counter who had recently gone through with an abortion and the very reason this happened I believe, nonetheless when I began to open just the cover suddenly an audible voice as if sitting beside me on the left said my name then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish" awestruck and what seemed like a power not my own I stood to my feet turned to the voice and said yes Lord and here are just a few very interesting scriptures I came across while looking into these things (also a friend and I had seen a winged angel bright like lightning all over even in the eyes as a kids)-

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy!

And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

edit on 15-2-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 02:25 PM
link   

The fictional "Christ" of the Gospels was portrayed as a religious schizophrenic


no fiction

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes

For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
edit on 15-2-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 02:33 PM
link   
reply to post by Rustami
 



what a lie! but you "just don't know" either way right?


I don't know whether a source/creator is required or that causation is a logical assumption regarding the existence of "reality" itself - I just don't know, i don't think any scientists can prove they know either. Maybe they will.

If by "intervene" you mean works of nature; then yes; God does intervene; he kills species of animals and destroys gallaxies and stars. "He" erupts volcanoes and disrupts land with quakes.


, nonetheless when I began to open just the cover suddenly an audible voice as if sitting beside me on the left said my name then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish"


Cool story. A subjective experience of course. Perhaps someone was playing a prank with an audio tape. I don't know, i wouldn't like to guess.

Many people state they can talk to dead people - Do i believe them? Not a chance. Most are unwilling to demonstrate their "powers". Nor do i believe people who claim they can reveal the future. I'm just sceptical like that.

I don't believe there is such a thing as the "supernatural" - It's either natural or it's natural and we are unaware it's natural.


whats that word you like to use-"derp" is it?


Yes i like using the word "derp" on occasions. Not sure if it's classified as a "word" though.

Please spare me the philosophical rantings of scripture, I lost interest when i was very young, I'm more convinced and entertained by your audible Jesus story.

And LOL - Jesus threatened you, or at least bribed you. Sounds like a nice chap.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:07 PM
link   
reply to post by Lucifer777
 


I just returned from Tokyo today. I'm always fascinated how the Japanese deal with religion. Their Shinto background is very strong, and often intertwined with Buddhism.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:53 PM
link   
reply to post by dominicus
 


This might be of interest to you: www.sgi-uk.org...

Especially level 8 & 9 :-)

I used to be a Christian (roman-catholic, raised in Europe), then a Nichiren-Buddhist, then an Agnostic Atheist and now after many decades I'm free of putting myself in a box. I don't consider my "journey" a waste of time because I've learned a great deal about the world and myself.

I feel a great affinity for the OP's quest to expose the lies behind religion. Those chains are getting mighty heavy and will not liberate mankind. But I cannot endorse any viewpoint that negates the existence of a superior consciousness that I call THE UNSPEAKABLE.

Once you have walked in that stream there is no turning back ...

Anyhoo, at the end of the day it's not about religious/philosophical constructs - no matter how well constructed. It's all about love and how much good we've done for our brothers and sisters. In that regard I can still learn a great deal from my Atheist father ...

Be well!



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 06:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by Rustami

nonetheless when I began to open just the cover suddenly an audible voice as if sitting beside me on the left said my name then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish" awestruck and what seemed like a power not my own I stood to my feet turned to the voice and said yes Lord


The Seven Signs.


OK, but bear in mind that those "voices in your head" were based upon a belief propagated in Christian cultures; had you been a HIndu in India, you may have claimed that the voice was that of Ganesha (the Hindu elephant god).



"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mt 16


Consider also the 7 Signs of those who are "not" condemned

1: You must beleive.
2: you must be baptised.
3: You must be able to perform exorcisms.
4: You must be able to speak in New Tongues.
5: You must be able to pick up serpents.
6: You must be able to safely drink any deadly poison.
7: You muyst be able to lay hands on the sick and miraculously cure them.


If you do not have the 7 signs, you are condemned.

It was also stated by the Jesus of the Gospels that you would do even "greater things than he."

Now the Jesus whom you claim spoke to you only asked you to "believe" and I think that this "belief only" theology developed because the professional Christian hypocrites realised that many of the teachings of Jesus were either too hard or impossible to follow.

We know that Christians cannot safely drink poison or miraculously cure leprosy and blindness, and since the professional Christian hypnotists know this also, they have just developed a much easier "belief only" theology, where you just become a rambling religious fanatic, talk incessantly about the teachings of Jesus, and yet reject the teachings of Jesus, apart from a few ethical maxims about love and so forth, which were common to that era; it is really just all about "believing" and about acting like a total hypocrite and being eternally rewarded for that.

Thus I suspect that the "voices" you heard in your head, were not the Biblical Jesus who made very difficult and impossible demands and was a fundamentalist Judaic religious fanatic, but rather just a memory of what you "wanted to hear (i.e., the easy path to religious fanaticism)" and of the hypocrtical "belief only" of professional Christian hypnotists.

Lux




top topics



 
26
<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in

join