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History Biased Against Hitler

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posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 02:59 PM
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Ok i've read some history text books and i've seen that Hitler is constantly flamed without evidence. It appears that he may have simply been a scapegoat. Simply put everybody blames him for the holocaust. Yet the unusual thing is none of the other Nazis are blamed. The other thing was that there is actually no hard evidence that Hitler is knew the existence of the concentration camps. So basically he seems to be taking the blame for all of the Nazis. He ended the German Great Depression. From what I hear he was a great speaker. So it looks a lot like another one of those cases were the victor rewrites history to there liking.
P.S. For the record I think he was a horrible person before anybody starts attacking me with torches and pitchforks.




posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:10 PM
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Dude. do you have a death wish? I know what you are saying but... comon.

Hitler's plan was to build giant wooden boats. Load em up out take them to the middle of the Atlantic. Then sink them.

Read a little more history befor you spout off like "the victor is rewriting history."



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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First off I'm not off my rocker. I agree he did some terrible things and all but I think that most of us did kind of jump to conclusions a little quickly. That and I think that the atrocious acts of the other Nazis need to be brought to light instead of puttiing it on one person.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:14 PM
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Hi cyberdude78!

Well, perhaps you might be interested in the views of David Irving, although *please* balance you views with counter arguments, such as found here.

IMO, Hitler knew *exactly* what was going on - have a read of Mein Kampf, especially CHAPTER XI, RACE AND PEOPLE, taken from /books/mein_kampf/mkv1ch11.html]here

Quote:

"...If the Jews were the only people in the world they would be wallowing in filth and mire and would exploit one another and try to exterminate one another in a bitter struggle, except in so far as their utter lack of the ideal of sacrifice, which shows itself in their cowardly spirit, would prevent this struggle from developing...."



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:16 PM
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cyberdude78, you're on your own, I'm afraid. I think it's a bit disrespectful to the millions that murderous dog killed to even go down this road.


[edit on 14-7-2004 by Zzub]



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:17 PM
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Well I learned this off of the history channel. Apparently he probably did know but we could never find evidence to prove it. Much like we can't really be sure he pulled the trigger of the gun that killed him.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:32 PM
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I really hope that a show on the History Channel isn't the only thing that you're putting this belief to, and that the fact that he may or may not have pulled the gun the killed himself isn't the only thing your banking on. Please tell me you have your own research and that just cause some network says there is no documented evidence to say he knew of the concentrations camps you now have this view. Please, cause if not, well....



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by cyberdude78
First off I'm not off my rocker. I agree he did some terrible things and all but I think that most of us did kind of jump to conclusions a little quickly. That and I think that the atrocious acts of the other Nazis need to be brought to light instead of puttiing it on one person.

Well, call me crazy...but I see the point you are trying to make. There WERE others responsible, which is the reason many Nazis were hunted and tried for war crimes. Hitler was the leader so he takes most of the blame.

It's no different than George Bush - he has hundreds of people that provide him intellegence & information that he has to make decisions on, yet he takes the blame for every single thing gone wrong.

Wait did I just compare Hitler & Bush?
Yeah, I guess in this strange way I did. Well, he needs to face the blame and move on. That would be best, but I still feel that many of the things he is blamed for is due to people under him screwing up. It's the way of the world, both business and politics. Students don't learn? Teacher's fault. Kid don't listen? Parent's fault. Country sucks? President's fault.

Anyway...I think your point was to blame others as WELL as Hitler. That has been done during the Nuremburg Trials (24 people named on the web site).




From November 20, 1945, until October 1, 1946, the International Military Tribunal (IMT) convened in the principal courtroom for criminal cases (room No. 600) in the Nuremberg Palace of Justice. At the conferences in Moscow (1943), Teheran (1943), Jalta (1945) and Potsdam (1945), the Big Three powers (USA, USSR and Great Britain) had agreed to try and to punish those responsible for war-crimes.


www.justiz.bayern.de...



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:36 PM
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I respect your opinion, and am not here to flame you in any way. I once thought as you did, that perhaps history was simply unkind to Hitler. He was obviously brilliant, and I have even seen some of his paintings from his youth, and he did have some measure of talent.

However, I took a class in college entitled "The Sociology of Hitler." We went back and not only studied his life, but Germany itself from about 1880 up through the 20's and 30's. Hitler rose to power because of incredible unemployment in Germany. He promised the people that he would bring them power, and he would bring them glory, and most importantly, he would bring them jobs. And he did.

However, there are some things from early on in his life we must pay attention to. Here is an example:




In 1906, Adolf was permitted to visit Vienna, but he was unable to gain admission to a prestigious art school. His mother developed terminal breast cancer and was treated by Dr. Edward Bloch, a Jewish doctor who served the poor. After an operation and excruciatingly painful and expensive treatments with a dangerous drug, she died on December 21, 1907.



Hitler spent six years in Vienna, living on a small legacy from his father and an orphan's pension. Virtually penniless by 1909, he wandered Vienna as a transient, sleeping in bars, flophouses, and shelters for the homeless, including, ironically, those financed by Jewish philanthropists. It was during this period that he developed his prejudices about Jews...[although] two of his closest friends at this time were Jewish, and he admired Jewish art dealers and Jewish operatic performers and producers...Vienna was a center of anti-Semitism, and the media's portrayal of Jews as scapegoats with stereotyped attributes did not escape Hitler's fascination.


Hitler's anti-Semetism was, perhaps, not malicious, but a function of the society and atmosphere in which he grew up. Remember, in America, every white who grew up on a cotton farm in the old south was raised by a black nanny, but this didn't prevent them from believing that blacks should be slaves. It was a function of their society, not a malicious view full of hate.


In May 1913, Hitler, seeking to avoid military service, left Vienna for Munich, the capital of Bavaria, following a windfall received from an aunt who was dying. In January, the police came to his door bearing a draft notice from the Austrian government. The document threatened a year in prison and a fine if he was found guilty of leaving his native land with the intent of evading conscription. Hitler was arrested on the spot and taken to the Austrian Consulate. Upon reporting to Salzburg for duty, he was found "unfit...too weak...and unable to bear arms."


The future leader of Germany wasn't built to be in war. He was a thinker, a creator, but not a fighter. He had the mind of a warrior, but perhaps not the killer instinct, and certainly not the courage to go into battle himself. This lack of courage seemed to be an embarassment to him all his life, and it helped to develop both an admiration for and a resentment in him towards those braver than he.


After less than two months of training, Hitler's regiment saw its first combat near Ypres, against the British and Belgians. Hitler narrowly escaped death in battle several times, and was eventually awarded two Iron Crosses for bravery. He rose to the rank of lance corporal but no further. In October 1916, he was wounded by an enemy shell and evacuated to a Berlin area hospital. After recovering, and serving a total of four years in the trenches, he was temporarily blinded by a mustard gas attack in Belgium in October 1918.


More evidence he was not fit for military or combat service. He wasn't a physical fighter, and the mustard gas probably only cemented his resentment against those who brought it against him: Britains and Belgians.

After the war, many limits were brought against the German military. Borders were drawn for them, they had to pay enormous amounts of money in reperations, and lost many colonies and other territories. The Treaty of Versailles not only brought enormous economic hardship, but also embarassment upon a very proud nation.


Soon after the war, Hitler was recruited to join a military intelligence unit, and was assigned to keep tabs on the German Worker's Party. At the time, it was comprised of only a handful of members. It was disorganized and had no program, but its members expressed a right-wing doctrine consonant with Hitler's. He saw this party as a vehicle to reach his political ends. His blossoming hatred of the Jews became part of the organization's political platform. Hitler built up the party, converting it from a de facto discussion group to an actual political party. Advertising for the party's meetings appeared in anti-Semitic newspapers. The turning point of Hitler's mesmerizing oratorical career occurred at one such meeting held on October 16, 1919. Hitler's emotional delivery of an impromptu speech captivated his audience. Through word of mouth, donations poured into the party's coffers, and subsequent mass meetings attracted hundreds of Germans eager to hear the young, forceful and hypnotic leader.


Hitler was smart, maybe too smart for his own good. He took a small group of people who were not really a threat to Germany as a whole, and built a political powerhouse that would one day transform Germany. He found within his weak body, a strong voice that could persuade others to his cause. The war had changed him. It had made him stronger. It had made him determined. It had made him very, very angry.




The Bavarian government defied the Weimar Republic, accusing it of being too far left. Hitler endorsed the fall of the Weimar Republic, and declared at a public rally on October 30, 1923 that he was prepared to march on Berlin to rid the government of the Communists and the Jews. On November 8, 1923, Hitler held a rally at a Munich beer hall and proclaimed a revolution. The following day, he led 2,000 armed "brown-shirts" in an attempt to take over the Bavarian government. This putsch was resisted and put down by the police, after more than a dozen were killed in the fighting. Hitler suffered a broken and dislocated arm in the melee, was arrested, and was imprisoned at Landsberg. He received a five-year sentence.


Hitler knew what he wanted, and he knew how to get it. At this time, his party had changed it's name to the National Socialist German Worker's party. Hitler claimed that the Jews were "internationalists". They hated the Fatherland, and sought to do it harm. No Jewish organization had said anything like this, publicly or privately, but Hitler knew he needed an enemy if he was to gain power, and the natural anti-Semetism present in Germany at that time gave him the perfect outlet to do so.


Hitler served only nine months of his five-year term. While in prison, he wrote the first volume of Mein Kampf. It was partly an autobiographical book (although filled with glorified inaccuracies, self-serving half-truths and outright revisionism) which also detailed his views on the future of the German people. ..he reserved the brunt of his vituperation for the Jews, whom he portrayed as responsible for all of the problems and evils of the world, particularly democracy, Communism, and internationalism, as well as Germany's defeat in the War. Jews were the German nation's true enemy, he wrote. They had no culture of their own, he asserted, but perverted existing cultures such as Germany's with their parasitism. As such, they were not a race, but an anti-race.


The book itself raised few eyebrows on an international scale. However, Germany was enthralled. The German people believed it was their right to rule the world. This was not a product of conceit, but simply an ideal that had been passed down to them by the Kaisers. Germany was the greatest nation on earth, and every other nation should follow them.


"[The Jews'] ultimate goal is the denaturalization, the promiscuous bastardization of other peoples, the lowering of the racial level of the highest peoples as well as the domination of his racial mishmash through the extirpation of the folkish intelligentsia and its replacement by the members of his own people," he wrote. On the contrary, the German people were of the highest racial purity and those destined to be the master race according to Hitler. To maintain that purity, it was necessary to avoid intermarriage with subhuman races such as Jews and Slavs.


Jews were a kind of terrorist that would poison you from the inside, according to Hitler. Their very presence could destroy the Fatherland. Giving them rights was, to Hitler, like giving rights to a diseased dog. They would not only give their sickness to you, but weren't sophisticated enough to understand the rights they had, so why give them more?




A second volume of Mein Kampf was published in 1927. It included a history of the Nazi party to that time and its program, as well as a primer on how to obtain and retain political power, how to use propaganda and terrorism, and how to build a political organization.


Mein Kampf said that the way to power was through fear. Scare the populace, denounce pacifists, and claim that what you do is in the name of patriotism, and whoever stands against you is no better than a traitor.

It worked.


Once released from prison, Hitler decided to seize power constitutionally rather than by force of arms. Using demagogic oratory, Hitler spoke to scores of mass audiences, calling for the German people to resist the yoke of Jews and Communists, and to create a new empire which would rule the world for 1,000 years.

Hitler's Nazi party captured 18% of the popular vote in the 1930 elections. In 1932, Hitler ran for President and won 30% of the vote, forcing the eventual victor, Paul von Hindenburg, into a runoff election. A political deal was made to make Hitler chancellor in exchange for his political support. He was appointed to that office in January 1933.

Upon the death of Hindenburg in August 1934, Hitler was the consensus successor. With an improving economy, Hitler claimed credit and consolidated his position as a dictator, having succeeded in eliminating challenges from other political parties and government institutions. The German industrial machine was built up in preparation for war. By 1937, he was comfortable enough to put his master plan, as outlined in Mein Kampf, into effect. Calling his top military aides together at the "Fhrer Conference" in November 1937, he outlined his plans for world domination. Those who objected to the plan were dismissed.


He stood in front of the people and promised them work, and money. He gave them hope, and showed them a future he could create. He gave them an enemy to fear and to fight against. Germany was in shambles, and his message fell on ears that needed it. His dramatic rise to power was understandable, given the situation the Fatherland was in.




Hitler ordered the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland in 1938. Hitler's army invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, sparking France and England to declare war on Germany. A Blitzkrieg (lightning war) of German tanks and infantry swept through most of Western Europe as nation after nation fell to the German war machine


Was Hitler directly responsible for the murder of millions of Jews during the holocaust? Well, I doubt he pulled any triggers, but from looking at his life, it wouldn't surprise me or anyone else who has taken a look at his life, and how he lived. Hitler was wrong for misleading his people into war, lying to them about the pictures that accidently leaked from several concentration camps that showed people being tortured, and he was wrong for taking a country in pain, and using it to his own advantage, and the advantage of his friends and associates.

The quotes from this page were taken from www.remember.org... The information contained is from a teacher's guide copyright 1990 Gary M. Grobman.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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Hitler knew about concertration camps. He's the one that ordered Jews to be killed. Also he killed Russians, and ohter innocent people!




[edit on 14-7-2004 by AD5673]



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:02 PM
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Yeah Hitler didnt know about concertration camps my as$. He's the one that ordered Jews to be killed. Also he killed Russians, and ohter innocent people!:flame


Well, we know that Himler gave orders to kill Jews, and we know there are letters that say that Hitler was involved in these decisions, and of course we have people who have testified that he knew, but we have no direct evidence of Hitler's involvement. My personal feeling is that Hitler knew some of what was going on, probably not all of it, because it was beneath him to know, in the eyes of his followers. Hitler was kind of on this pedestal way above them somewhere. I'm sure he knew something, maybe knew a lot, but it wouldn't surprise me if he only knew the bare minimum. Either way, he obviously would have approved.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by RockerDom



Yeah Hitler didnt know about concertration camps my as$. He's the one that ordered Jews to be killed. Also he killed Russians, and ohter innocent people!:flame


Well, we know that Himler gave orders to kill Jews, and we know there are letters that say that Hitler was involved in these decisions, and of course we have people who have testified that he knew, but we have no direct evidence of Hitler's involvement. My personal feeling is that Hitler knew some of what was going on, probably not all of it, because it was beneath him to know, in the eyes of his followers. Hitler was kind of on this pedestal way above them somewhere. I'm sure he knew something, maybe knew a lot, but it wouldn't surprise me if he only knew the bare minimum. Either way, he obviously would have approved.

Ok people this is the point im trying to get across. Now I think its all horrible and wrong what he did. Of course he probably got the info verbally. No offense but most of us would probably be saying something else if we were allies instead of enemies. The idea of this thread is that I would like history classes/textbooks to tell the facts not the theories.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:24 PM
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That's why I selected those excerpts from a teacher's guide for you. This is what is being taught, on the college level at least. High school classes are not usually going to be as in-depth as college, which is why a proper education is so important for the people of this country, but that's another thread.


I do respect your opinion, please don't think I am flaming you, because I'm not, I'm just pointing out some things that perhaps you haven't yet thought of or were aware of.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:31 PM
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Hitlers technological advances that he pushed are still in existence today. Modern medicine, rocketry, social programs; these are all being used by some nation on Earth. 100% of his policies towards so called 'lesser peoples' were abhorrent. But his Kindergeld program( rewarding mothers for having children) is still in effect in Germany. He stopped the spread of communism to Western Europe. He lifted a people out of poverty and starvation to the forefront of technology.

We don't here any of this about Stalin.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:34 PM
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I'm not denouncing any of those things. I agree that he stopped spiraling unemployment, and helped make incredible advances in technology, as war often does. The question was whether or not he was aware of the horrible atrocities committed by his troops, better known as the holocaust. I simply stated reasons why I believe he either was involved, or approved of those actions.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 04:40 PM
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Of course he would have approved. He was a manipulator and cold hearted wretch at that. Remember: The SS who were used to run the camps were chosen because they were, to simply put it, crazy. They were not the norm of the Wehrmacht(regular soldiers). The atrocities committed by the SS are deplorable. But I will never blame the regular soldiers for what the SS, SA, and Gestapo did.

I'll post more tomorrow



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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I guess it's also about accountability. If he is the leader of this regime, then the regime does things in his name, then he is ultimately responsible, IMO. It was his decision to bring these people in, and he supported them by doing so. Even if he had no direct involvement, it's his fault that they had the power to do whatever they did. A lesson we should not forget.



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 01:27 PM
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Sorry if I appeared to have lost my temper. Thanks for the info RockerDom. But anyhow I know Hitler knew what he was doing. But they did a nice cover up. But was there possibly a higher power that was actually in control. Because if you looked at him before WWII it was hard to imagine he would do the things he did. So I wonder was there a higher power, or was Hitler effectivly brainwashed by his experiences in life. What compeled him to do the things he did. It just seems odd. That or there was quite a cover up.



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 01:46 PM
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Cyber, that question has been posed by so many sociologists and anthropologists over the years, and no one has come up with any other answer than the one I've already given you. Hitler used the anti-Semetic rhetoric of the time to gain power, and after enough time releating the same things over and over and being surrounded people who really did believe it, at some point he excepted it as truth as well.

The question of his involvement/awareness of the death camps is one that will be chalked up to history for debate. It's eerily similar to one of this year's biggest questions, did Bush/Cheney know about the abuses in Abu Grahib? At the time in Germany, Goebels, Himmler and Hitler all denied they had any knowledge of Aushwitcz, but looking back from the cold light of history, we suspect otherwise.

The answer is, unless Bush and Cheney themselves say they did know, then it will always be up for questioning. Welcome to geopolitics



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 02:31 PM
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You guys were a bit rude for just saying he's wrong and thinking he's ignorant. Just because its what you think, it may not be right. And the people that said to "go out and research some more"...didnt even give some solid evidence to prove that he did know and whatnot. (except Genya for posting what was in his book).




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