Camera angles at the Pentagon

reply to post by daddio

Well there hooper, that IS the front of the pentagon BEFORE the outer ring collapsed, SO WHERE IS THE PALNE WRECKAGE? i personally don't see any AT ALL. Should it not be scattered about the WHOLE OF THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING? But where oh where is it? I see nothing that even remotely resembles plane wreckage.

The plane crashed INTO the building.
I don't know how to make it any clearer. INTO. As in "I went into the house", ergo if you took a picture of the outside of the house you probably wouldn't see me

So please, enlighten us to exactly where the "plane" is supposed to be, where is the wreckage? It is not or can not all be condensed in one small unseen pile can it? Please SHOW US!!! Where is YOUR proof there was a plane, where is ALL the wreckage, not just some photos of people carrying off clean, small pieces of debris.

So you want to see photos of the wreckage, but you don't accept photos of the wreckage. Hmmm.
Well, you got me there.
But thank you. You've proved my point that no matter what is "released" someone will find some angle or construct some rationalization for rejecting it.
.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by FDNY343

 

Gee, your a Rocket scientist aren't ya? Im pretty sure we already knew that, I was saying the conflicting stories issues by the FBI was what was in question....and really, flight 11 nor 175 ran into the pentagon? To think, I had it backwards this whole time...( sarcasm)

Nope, rocket surgeon. BIG difference......

So, two guys make a claim, that NEITHER of them have been able to back up, and you believe that? No wonder you believe conspiracy theories.

reply to post by Myendica




Given the security profile of the Pentagon I would assume the entire building is in constant surveillance...

Technically, the truther's are correct. A plane did not hit the Pentagon because technically, it should have been shot down by the missile defense system surrounding the Pentagon after the IFOF (Identify Friend or Foe) signal alerted the system to a unauthorized airspace presence.

There are only commercial and military signals and military is the only signal allowed in that air space.

That commercial airliner should have been shot down.

I for one don't believe that our entire government is responsible, but rather a 'sect' comprising members of critical facets of our over all infrastructure.

I would *love* to see a picture of a plane hitting that building, IF ONLY to see it fold itself up, ditch its 4 ton titanium allow turbine engines, and fit neatly into that little hole in the side of the Pentagon.

reply to post by Xcathdra


To add some additional visual aids, to that excellent first video selection (they're all good, too)...this one, from NTSB.

Capt. Sullenberger used 130 knots as his "Ref" speed, for the touchdown. That is what you see, for comparison, in the CCTV footage (some of which has been slowed down as well). Compared to the speed of American 77...at least 480 knots indicated. That's 3.7 times faster.....:



THIS is reality, ladies and gentlemen.

_____________________________________________________

Can I add the joke I just read? We pilots are notorious for this sort of "graveyard" humor.....I just marvel at the creativity, as I usually chuckle along (some can get a bit ummm, shall we say, raunchy and impolite, though...can't repeat many in mixed company).

But, this one's a keeper!:

"They've named a new drink after Captain Sullenberger, called , simply, a 'Sully':

Two shots of Grey Goose, and a splash of water."

reply to post by JollyLlama


Oh, my, my, my.....:

....it should have been shot down by the missile defense system surrounding the Pentagon...

Rubbish.

NO SUCH "SYSTEM" was in place!! Internet lies, courtesy of those so-called "truthers".....

Originally posted by daddio
...SO WHERE IS THE PlANE WRECKAGE? I personally don't see any AT ALL. Should it not be scattered about the WHOLE OF THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING? But where oh where is it? I see nothing that even remotely resembles plane wreckage.

Large pieces of airplane debris at Pentagon

Aircraft engine rotors in debris

Airplane engine assembly

Airplane pieces inside the Pentagon

Airplane debris on the lawn

Human remains - ** GRAPHIC **

Small aircraft debris

Eyewitness statements describing the plane coming over the highway and impacting the Pentagon

More eyewitness testimony describing plane hitting pentagon

yet more eyewitness acounts describing plane impacting the Pentagon

Photo of Pentagon in 2002 that shows the extent of damage. Also it was not just the outer ring that was breached. All 5 rings sustained damage including the sublevels 3 stories down.





Source - 911 Research

Originally posted by network dude
But as I said, IT DOESN"T LOOK LIKE A PLANE. I see it, and it looks as if it's traveling parallel to the ground and it doesn't look large enough to be a passenger jet. So just as I cannot say it's a missile, or a giant twinkie, you cannot say for sure it's a jet.

But yet it was a plane. Just because a blurry video couldn't possibly have caught a clear shot of the plane, does not prove all the witnesses wrong.

Over 100 of them, all stating it was a plane. Couple that with the blurry video, and debris, etc. there was a plane that crashed into the building.

No one saw a missile.

No one saw a drone.

No one saw a twinkie.

But they all saw a plane, and those in position to do so also saw that plane crash into the Pentagon from various angles. So, taking everything into account, yes one can say for sure it was indeed a plane.

These cameras (I monitor 16 of them) rotate 37 seconds one way, and aprox 33 the other....at any time they are on any-one-location for no more than 3-5 secs. while in rotation.

We have a hard time "seeing" any certain spot because they are only on a specific spot for just seconds, then continues in that directions and then back again. That...spot for spot...produces only 5-10 seconds per minute that any 1 spot is covered on tape...unless of course it is stationary on that spot and zoomed in.

Reviewing the day's tape will only reveal 10 or so seconds each minute. Thats leaves about 50 secs each minute where that spot has not been recorded.

None of this matters. A plane didn't hit the Pentagon and they will never release footage confirming that, so give it up.

reply to post by General.Lee



Oh, dear me, not again....here:

Like another member stated, provide actual evidence a plane hit the building and the "Truthers" will come out of the woodwork crying and complaining that it's CGI or manipulated.

We all know a plane hit the building. It takes common sense to know this.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by FDNY343

 

no, the top camera was a PTZ or pan tilt zoom, The camera on the tower is a fixed mounted camera. But none of that is important, as this footage has not been released. So nobody will be able to show where it was pointing. My whole point is this could shut up a lot of people. Why is it still being withheld? National security?

Right on. ALL security camera footage from dozens and dozens of busineses, gas stations, banks and office buildings was confiscated by the FBI (and possibly "other" government agencies). NONE of the confiscated footage was ever released and will never be released as long as those who staged this false-flag operation wish to obscure the truth.

I won't open the can of worms about "where did the wings/wreckage go?" Or that of "how does an aluminum jet penetrate so many levels through steel and concrete to damage inner rings?" Those thougths aside, the footage should be released. The fact that they are NOT released is evidence of a cover-up at the very least. What I suspect the real footage shows is a missile or drone or modified aircraft hitting the Pentagon.

FACT: The day before, SECDEF states in a press conference that over 3 trillion dollars of defense money is UNACCOUNTED FOR.

FACT: The location where the information (computers, physical files/records, accountants) was stored is PRECISELY where the "airliner" hit. That section was destroyed and the majority of those people were killed.

Hmmmmm... If ever you wanted to make the loss of 3 trillion dollars hard to investigate, you simply blow them to bloody, mangled pieces with a missile or a bomb. If footage were released that actually showed a plane hitting the Pentagon, and special effects experts vetted that it was authentic (along with concurrent agencies and independent experts/scientists), then I'd still be skeptical but would have to eventually concede to the fact that an airliner did indeed hit the Pentagon. Unfortunately, they won't release the footage because it will show nothing of the sort.

----------And, they won't released doctored footage because NO ONE IS THAT GOOD who can make unreal effects seem COMPLETELY REAL --and that stand up to SCIENTIFIC SCRUTINY. Further, the way things have been going with 9-11, I don't think anyone would want to do the job (I wouldn't), ---because they know that they will meet an untimely end like so many others involved in dark cover-ups.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
NONE of the confiscated footage was ever released and will never be released as long as those who staged this false-flag operation wish to obscure the truth.

In addition to the pentagon video blurb, the footage from the DEA HQ, The Hotel footage and the Citgo footage have all been released to the public. Flip back a few pages and you will find the links and videos.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
I won't open the can of worms about "where did the wings/wreckage go?" Or that of "how does an aluminum jet penetrate so many levels through steel and concrete to damage inner rings?" Those thougths aside, the footage should be released. The fact that they are NOT released is evidence of a cover-up at the very least. What I suspect the real footage shows is a missile or drone or modified aircraft hitting the Pentagon.

See posts 2 pages back, and a few posts above tis to see the wreckage debris from the Pentagon, in addition to over 130 eyewitness accounts of a plane hitting the pentagon.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
FACT: The day before, SECDEF states in a press conference that over 3 trillion dollars of defense money is UNACCOUNTED FOR.

It was 2.3 trillion that was unaccounted for and it spans decades,and not just the Bush Presidency.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
FACT: The location where the information (computers, physical files/records, accountants) was stored is PRECISELY where the "airliner" hit. That section was destroyed and the majority of those people were killed.

and records still exist in other locations.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
Hmmmmm... If ever you wanted to make the loss of 3 trillion dollars hard to investigate, you simply blow them to bloody, mangled pieces with a missile or a bomb. If footage were released that actually showed a plane hitting the Pentagon, and special effects experts vetted that it was authentic (along with concurrent agencies and independent experts/scientists), then I'd still be skeptical but would have to eventually concede to the fact that an airliner did indeed hit the Pentagon.

You really need to take off your slumber mask and open your eyes some. Think for yourself and quit swallowing conpisracy theories hook line and sinker. The video footage has been released, and more is on the way thanks to judicialwatch.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
Unfortunately, they won't release the footage because it will show nothing of the sort.

Take a deep breath and read the posts made in this thread, and you will find your answers. Unless you are so set in your conspiracy theory that you just dismiss any info that contradicts your thoughts.

Originally posted by GhostLancer
----------And, they won't released doctored footage because NO ONE IS THAT GOOD who can make unreal effects seem COMPLETELY REAL --and that stand up to SCIENTIFIC SCRUTINY. Further, the way things have been going with 9-11, I don't think anyone would want to do the job (I wouldn't), ---because they know that they will meet an untimely end like so many others involved in dark cover-ups.

Out of curiosity what branch of the Government do you work for and how long have you been an investigator? The reason I ask is you make your claims as absolute Fact. The only way you can do that is if you have first hand knowledge of what transpired. In that case, you would be an accessory to murder for failing to act by preventing the incidents from occuring.

Also, who doctored the video / photos? Did that person go through the alaw enforcement / FBI cedemy with you.

/.end sarcasm.

Take some time, calm down, and actually look at whats been posted and think for yourself. If in the end you still beleive its a coverup, thats your thing and I respect that. However, to me, you seem to be ignoring all the information to date about what occured.

Why would the government orchestrate mass murder to hide 2.3 trillion dollars when they had nothing to do with the loss in the first place? If you research that you will see the timelines and how far back that probe went.

just saying..

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by daddio
...SO WHERE IS THE PlANE WRECKAGE? I personally don't see any AT ALL. Should it not be scattered about the WHOLE OF THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING? But where oh where is it? I see nothing that even remotely resembles plane wreckage.

Large pieces of airplane debris at Pentagon

Aircraft engine rotors in debris

Airplane engine assembly

Airplane pieces inside the Pentagon

Airplane debris on the lawn

Human remains - ** GRAPHIC **

Small aircraft debris

Eyewitness statements describing the plane coming over the highway and impacting the Pentagon

More eyewitness testimony describing plane hitting pentagon

yet more eyewitness acounts describing plane impacting the Pentagon

Photo of Pentagon in 2002 that shows the extent of damage. Also it was not just the outer ring that was breached. All 5 rings sustained damage including the sublevels 3 stories down.





Source - 911 Research

I would like to ask a few questions about this post, even make some statements, in hopes that we can have a respectful discussion. Thank you for your time, and for providing some form of evidence already.

Question 1: In the double tree parking lot video you posted, why is there no plane visible when cars are clearly visible at the same distance? The person in control of the cursor follows what is clearly a car or truck, to show that it is not a plane.
Question 2: Are you saying that the 2.3 trillion Rummy speaks of on 9/10 was the sum total of years of unaccounted money or that its not uncommon for trillions to come up missing on an annual basis?
Question 3: I've looked through most of the eyewitness testimonies provided in the links above and I'm having trouble figuring out what happened. The very first guy never speaks of a plane. Others do, but some say it banks left, others say it banks right, it might have drug a wing, but very few actually say they saw it hit the Pentagon or see debris. One woman says there were tail sections on the lawn, where are they now? Who is telling the truth and where is the drag mark on the grass?

I have other questions but there is no need to overwhelm you. I'm honestly curious to know these answers and don't want to prove anything, just to discuss.

reply to post by hooper


You must not be all there because you are avoiding looking at the EVIDENCE of the conspired event on 9/11 by the U.S. and allies.

Originally posted by SomeCheesyUsername
reply to post by hooper

 

You must not be all there because you are avoiding looking at the EVIDENCE of the conspired event on 9/11 by the U.S. and allies.

Yep, that must be it. Thank you for your concern. Maybe I'll try and start looking at the EVIDENCE!

The US and our ALLIES? Let me guess which one.

reply to post by hooper


Probably the one that you love, i would wager.

Who do you think pulled it off ?? and for what motive, if these buildings were not in need of protecting why would anyone attack them ??

I guess the memo didn't get to the caves that there was no reason to attack any of these buildings, since it would only get them bombed to hell...and not actually do any damage to any infrastructure....nope they just focused on these irrelevant targets instead....

Originally posted by budaruskie
I would like to ask a few questions about this post, even make some statements, in hopes that we can have a respectful discussion. Thank you for your time, and for providing some form of evidence already.

Works for me, but I am not an expert on 9/11.

Originally posted by budaruskie
Question 1: In the double tree parking lot video you posted, why is there no plane visible when cars are clearly visible at the same distance? The person in control of the cursor follows what is clearly a car or truck, to show that it is not a plane.

Watch the video closely and you will see what he is pointing out. Also keep in mind that the aircraft was so low, that it took out light poles on the highway and on the pentagon property before impact. What you see as a car is a plane.

Originally posted by budaruskie
Question 2: Are you saying that the 2.3 trillion Rummy speaks of on 9/10 was the sum total of years of unaccounted money or that its not uncommon for trillions to come up missing on an annual basis?

The accounting problems for the pentagon started back in the mid 70's and progressively got worse from then on out.

Rumsfeld admitted that the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 trillion. This money has disappeared – nobody knows where it's gone. Government officials have blamed the accounting systems – the US Department of Defense has failed to produce independently audited accounts since 1995.

The figures provided to Rumsfeld were not by him. They were provided to him as an estimate from the DoD auditors. The info has since been removed from the DoD website, but there is a thread here on ATS that covered that story, and the articles were posted so I will use that info for you. I am not going to copy the info over to this thred since its lengthy. People are confusing fiscal buget years, DoD bugets years and carry over. Its explained better and more indepth in this thread:

ATS Thread - 2.3 Trillion DoD funds missing

Originally posted by budaruskie
Question 3: I've looked through most of the eyewitness testimonies provided in the links above and I'm having trouble figuring out what happened. The very first guy never speaks of a plane. Others do, but some say it banks left, others say it banks right, it might have drug a wing, but very few actually say they saw it hit the Pentagon or see debris. One woman says there were tail sections on the lawn, where are they now? Who is telling the truth and where is the drag mark on the grass?

They are eye witness accounts, so I cant answer this question with any authority. They reported what they saw. I can tell you that seeing a traumatic event like a plane crash can cause shock with witnesses. The other issue, and its a double edge sword, is accidental memory tampering / leap of logic issues.

Generally speaking for criminal investigations, witness are seperated so their individual accounts cant be tainted by repeating what other people saw.

Example - A person says she saw a large multi colored object pass by her vehicle as she was driving on the highway, followed by a large explosion. She stops to see whats going on, and in the mess she talks to other witnesses. One of those witnesses says they saw a plane fly overhead. She hears that and in her mind, thats what she saw, even though her recollection is just color and size.

To me, the position that it was not an airplane and any reports of a plane is a coverup, is hard to swallow. Pentagon employees, as well as people driving on the highway report a plane. There is no way possible to ensure, if it was an inside job, that every person toting the "offical story" would be present when it occured. Random people on the highway stopped and reported what they saw. Fire crews who were mutual aided from other districts talked about what they saw - plane parts etc.

Also, when Bush left office, and Congress changed hands, there was a rime opprotunity to investigate Bush and the actiosn surrounding 9/11. They did not do that, and I find it hard to beleive that all members of Congress, and a new President would all be part of the same conspiracy.

Another argument I have seen is how can temperatures be enough to melt aircraft aluminum, and not bodies.

Cremation of a human corpse requires higher heat than Aluminum. On average in order to char / cremate human remains the temperatures will be around 1600F to 1800F.
Lenght of time of complete cremation of a humn body is about 1 hour per every 100 pounds of body weight.

Aircraft aluminum is unique in that it can reach a melting point without distortion or turning red.
Melting point of Aluminum (Generally) is around 1200 degrees F. Stronger elements actually have a lower melting point than Aluminum.

As with any fire, heat will never be a constant throughout. You will have areas that are hotter, or cooler depending on enviormental factors (oxygen, chemicals, fuel, etc etc etc). In the human remain pictures, 2nd one down you can see a charred body, and just to the left, there is a person who does not even look like fire touched him.

Originally posted by budaruskie
I have other questions but there is no need to overwhelm you. I'm honestly curious to know these answers and don't want to prove anything, just to discuss.

edit on 2/10/2011 by budaruskie because: (no reason given)

No worries.. Like I said though im not an expert on 9/11. My personal opinioons and beliefs is it was not an inside job. I dont beleive our government had anything at all to do with 9/11. Others see it very differently and thats fine to. My answers are based on my personal opinions and thoughts based on my experiences and training = my opinion.

People also seem to forget that while this happened in 2001, its still an active criminal investigation which is one of the reasons there is still not a large amount of info being released. The items so far have been granted through FOIA (freedom of Information requests) and as you can see in some of the photos there are captions that refer to evidence exhibits. Those designations are evidence tracking / logging for a criminal case.

The only advice I have is to keep an open mind. There is always the possibility 50 yers from now someone will give a deathbed confession implicating our Government. Be objective when looking into this stuff and above all else remeber that a catastrophic incident will never be consistent. As an example melting points of certain alloys / metals are determined under scientific conditions for accuracy.

There will always be an X factor and a catastrophic incident will never be accurate.

Hope this helps you out some.. Feel free to ask others who are on the opposite side of the fence why they think 9/11 was an inside job. Some of the theorys are intresting.

reply to post by GrinchNoMore


And yet we have examples spanning decades of Islamic Extremists / terrorists hijacking airplanes. Not to bad for people who live in "caves". How about those pesky cave dwellers who made shoes bombs and underwear bombs? I guess they dont get high times in their cave, so bomb building is their new hobby.

If you Eliminate the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

How quickly people forget, or conviently ignore our first encounter with islamic extremists. Anyone in the Marine Corp can give you the details.

An inside job on 9/11... Was it an inside job by our government as well in 1993 when they tried to bring down the building the first time?

Was it an inside job when they blew up 2 of our embassies on the African continent?

Was it an inside job when the USS Cole was hit by a suicide boat?

It was an inside job, and Osama Bin Laden is not real - How quickly people forget that Binladen used to be an ally of the US during the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan. Osama turned when the CIA ended support to those groups. The bin laden family is a major force in Saudi Arabia, so we know he is real.

I will also point out to people that we were told by Bin laden that if we remove our presence from Saudi Arabia, he would be satisfied. Guess what - our military presnce in Saudi ended in 2003.

How many incidents have we had since then?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Inside jobs are a hell of a lot more likely than outside, regardless of what countries are pulling them off.

Fact is , you got no proof of who is behind anything, in any attacks...when following the money trails and seeing who gains power...it becomes FAR more clear.

You guys are like the old guard that needs cleaning out... and i cannot wait for that day.

It is far too easy for you guys to pick what appears "Obvious to you" , and yet you do not even know why that seems obvious, well i will tell you why.

You apparently believe everything you hear, and it is easy to pick enemies when they are offered to you as said enemies.

You love the fact that there is someone to be "against" .. and never look within for enemies, that is in fact the most hilarious part of all.