The Ultimate Meaning of Life

reply to post by WhizPhiz

There is now nothing at all in existence, just a big void of nothingness. Does time still pass? And if it doesn't, how will anything ever happen again (like the formation of a Universe)?

No, time's flow cannot exist without space or "dimensionality".

Stephen Hawking was wrestling with this very concept because it appeared that information was being destroyed in black holes, which would have the effect that eventually the universe would "bleed out" into nothingness.

Instead he found that the black holes themselves "evaporate" radiating their information as gamma & X-rays from the event horizon and that eventually the black hole would cease to exist, not the universe. So it is hard to see the universe collapsing back into nothingness. It can't.

You also need to see time as something more mathematical rather than the concept that you presently have. It is a direction dimensionally. Hawking called our perception of time "the arrow of time".

Einsten defined time to be a spacial dimension. For thousands of years we've measured time in seconds and space in meters (sorry to US people, but the rest of the world uses the metric system). Einstein said that 1 second equals approximately 386,000 metres (based upon the speed of light) in the direction we call time (which isn't one of the three spacial dimensions we are familiar with) and this has allowed us to do math with time and space in the same units.

Similarly negative time (running backwards on the time axis) does not return objects to their original position. Imagine a gas escaping form a flask. The gas spreads out from the point of its release according to equations that define brownian motion. If you make the time value negative, the gas still spreads out, it doesn't return to the bottle. Once you can see that, you are starting to understand what time is.

hope you actually get to read this

reply to post by chr0naut

No, time's flow cannot exist without space or "dimensionality".

Stephen Hawking was wrestling with this very concept because it appeared that information was being destroyed in black holes, which would have the effect that eventually the universe would "bleed out" int nothingness.

Instead he found that the black holes themselves "evaporate" radiating their information as gamma & X-rays from the event horizon and that eventually the black hole would cease to exist, not the universe. So it is hard to see the universe collapsing back into nothingness. It can't.

Yes, I already know all that, my point was not whether it could happen, but I'm saying it must have already happened. What was before the big bang, where did that energy come from, and was there just a void of nothingness before the big bang exploded our universe into existence. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Are you now going to tell me our universe "just is and always has been"?

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
To me he/she/it doesn't exist, yet I can experience joy and happiness.

You experience joy because it is a feeling.

Happiness is a state of existence.

If happiness does not exist, then you cannot experience it.

If you did not exist, then you could not experience it.

If your parents did not exist, you would not.

If not theirs, then neither they. And so on. So where did it start?

You can call "It" whatever you want, but something started it all and I much appreciate The Origin that I can experience life.

I personally believe in Jesus Christ and His teaching of love. His teaching of love allows me to experience this life better than most... with fewer materials than most in my country and yet more than a lot of the world.

But hey... that's me. You can decide for yourself what the truth is. But the undeniable truth is this --

You did not create yourself. Who do you thank?

reply to post by TarzanBeta

You did not create yourself. Who do you thank?

Uhh, that would be my parents actually. Conceiving me wasn't actually the hard part! I kid actually, my mother says I was a very calm and nice child.

But who do we thank for the human species as a whole? God? Well, no, not me, I think even if God were real, he merely created a venue in which life could naturally grow, he set off the spark of energy known as the big bang and nothing more. So either way I believe the human species naturally evolved into what we are (with maybe some alien intervention), and mark my words - we will continue to evolve if we last long enough.

reply to post by WhizPhiz


What we know (and believe) of our universe is that is seemed to have started in a big bang about 13.5 billion years ago.

Something may have existed prior to that, but as we approach the instant of creation, all we know of physics breaks down and we can see neither the "bang" nor anything prior (or if we do see something, we don't recognise it).

All we can do is make assumptions and try and extrapolate what we know to something that is essentially unknowable. All our string theories, m-theories & brane theories are just that - theory.

To sum it up in an analogy, if you don't have a ruler, you can't measure distances.

reply to post by chr0naut

What we know (and believe) of our universe is that is seemed to have started in a big bang about 13.5 billion years ago.

Yeah, but that's merely the start of our Universe. There's simply a missing gap of information for anything that may have happened before that, and thus we assume nothing did actually happen before that. Suddenly, time just started and stuff exploded into existence, and forget everything that may have happened before that. It's like saying we are at the center of the universe, except you're saying we are like the first ever universe ever and nothing ever existed before our universe full stop - not even time.

See, because how can time start, or anything at all even happen when there is no time? That's my point. Scientists are like "It...just happened...deal with it".

EDIT: Which is the same thing as the people saying "God just happened...deal with it". They are both believing in unconfirmed ideas based on very flawed logic.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

You did not create yourself. Who do you thank?

Uhh, that would be my parents actually. Conceiving me wasn't actually the hard part!

I kid actually, my mother says I was a very calm and nice child.

But who do we thank for the human species as a whole? God? Well, no, not me, I think even if God were real, he merely created a venue in which life could naturally grow, he set off the spark of energy known as the big bang and nothing more. So either way I believe the human species naturally evolved into what we are (with maybe some alien intervention), and mark my words - we will continue to evolve if we last long enough.

edit on 8-2-2011 by WhizPhiz because: (no reason given)

Here is a scenario for you :

A man walks by and throws a banana peel on the ground. Someone slips on it and skids into the road. A car swerves to miss and hits a building. A child dies. Who do you blame?

Alternatively

A man walks by and picks up the banana peel. The child lives. Who does the child thank?

Meaning, the child has no idea that there was a banana peel that could have been left on the ground that could have caused someone to slip that could have caused a car to swerve that could have ended the child's life.

And yet, does the child feel grateful for their life?

Life is a gift our parents afforded us, but it is also a gift that we take easily for granted because we forget that we are dependent upon so many others to not wreck it for us.

So, here, we learn to appreciate other people.

Also, both the man that threw the banana peel and the one who picked it up are a result of the Origin. However, the Origin made life possible. Which man reflected the will of the Origin?

Also, if the Origin did not intend there to be life, there would be no life. You believe that the Origin had to intend your life specifically, but is it not true that if even one iota of a change in the timeline happened at some point before your birth that you would not exist? Therefore, your life was inevitable.

But also, we have the free will to choose what we do. It is just that one man's choice to take a walk on a particular street one day led him to a situation where he had the choice to pick up or to leave a banana peel lying on the street. But the child does not know that. But the child with wisdom thanks the Origin everyday for everything that is in place and accepts whatever is to come. With this mentality does the child prevent from causing devastation to the world. But those who, like the man who threw the banana peel, take life for granted and care not what they leave behind, caring not about the consequences, these are the ones who reflect the opponent of the Origin. These are the ones who do not appreciate their own life enough to preserve others by taking personal responsibility to make sure they do not devastate the world around them.

Now, it is true that the Origin made it possible for the man who threw the banana peel to exist, but it is also true that the Origin made it possible for the man to make choices as we do.

Therefore, we have the man who chose not to have the foresight to not throw the peel on the ground, the person who chose not to have the foresight to realize the ground could be slippery, the driver who chose not to have the foresight to decide that in the event someone slips and flies into the road, running into a building or slamming on the brakes has more of a possibility of hurting more people than the one, and then the child had not the foresight to realize that being in a building not fortified well enough to take a hit from a car is dangerous...

Everything ties together. Everyone is always responsible. Your parents are responsible for making you, but, eh, everyone's parents are directly responsible for making them.

But your life, the possibility of it - To whom or what do you give appreciation that you, against all odds, have life?

There is only One Origin for everything.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

But also, we have the free will to choose what we do. It is just that one man's choice to take a walk on a particular street one day led him to a situation where he had the choice to pick up or to leave a banana peel lying on the street. But the child does not know that. But the child with wisdom thanks the Origin everyday for everything that is in place and accepts whatever is to come. With this mentality does the child prevent from causing devastation to the world.

Yes, and there are also children who die every day at very young ages due to random coincidences. It's no one persons will or desire to accidentally kill, but it can happen even if all measures are taken to avoid such a scenario. I could die at any moment of a heart attack, but do I sit here thanking the "origin" that I haven't dropped dead? No I don't...

But those who, like the man who threw the banana peel, take life for granted and care not what they leave behind, caring not about the consequences, these are the ones who reflect the opponent of the Origin. These are the ones who do not appreciate their own life enough to preserve others by taking personal responsibility to make sure they do not devastate the world around them.

So someone can't care about the environment and be a nice person without believing in God? If you're saying that, I disagree strongly. GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A GOOD PERSON. Perhaps if there is a God the reason he never shows up anymore is because he wants to teach people how think for themselves, and learn how to actually be a good person without having to be told, or threatened with eternal damnation!

reply to post by WhizPhiz


You did not respond to one thing I said besides by saying that you are not appreciative that you are alive - except that earlier you said towards your parents.

Yes, people should be good regardless of whether there is a reward or not, agreed. But being good doesn't just mean "meaning well". It means paying attention and having the foresight to see ALL those things all the time around you. If you do that, that is proof that you care and do not take any of it for granted. When you write off things like that as just "accidents beyond our control", you allow others to take control of your life for you. The irony in your attitude is amusing.

It is your problem if you fear eternal damnation. I can't help you there. I suppose the best way to fight that is to appreciate life and be thankful for it. It's not hard.

The fact is, when we are dead, we are dead. I agree. I agree that many people do good for the wrong reasons... for their own reward instead of for the betterment of everyone. But that kind of good is easy to distinguish because it only plans 2 steps ahead instead of foreseeing all possibilities and yet existing in the moment at ease knowing that taking the best course of action could yet be one's own end.

But the good news there is that atleast that person took control of their life and sacrificed it KNOWINGLY.

Knowing that there is only death.

Would you do good for the rest of your life knowing that there is only death?

It might be, but there are so very few that would that we would not exist... we would be obsolete, eaten up - spit out. The world wouldn't have made it.

Which is even more of a miracle unto itself. See, the Jews didn't even believe in a real afterlife for the most part. Most just assumed that death was death and that was that. It wasn't until Jesus came around that it was even mentioned what the rewards would be...partially as an incentive to bring people closer (not that this would continue to be there incentive, but to interest them) and also partially to bring joy to those who did not realize that God had a plan for them.

Because God wants people to do good because it is RIGHT and not because you get something in return - He would rather you do something good because you are afraid of punishment than for you to believe that it is because you get something in return... but people become stubborn and no longer afraid when God leaves us to our devices (Or so it appears). Therefore, both methods are applied to attract people - but by no means does God accept those who do good without meaning it.

Those people are lying to GOD and to themselves. And it is impossible to lie to God.

So, stop resenting the Origin for what PEOPLE do. Stop resenting the Origin for other peoples' negative choices. Take personal responsibility for what you do and appreciate that you are alive. Stop blaming what people do on the Origin - get your head outta that rear end and stop associating the True Energy Source with the "Old Beard on a Throne" and pay attention to what is around you.

It's amazing how much you will witness when you start paying attention to fine details.

I don't care what names you give to the realities. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you read the Bible or not! It doesn't matter. You are obviously smart. So use your friggin logic. Feel your intuition. Pay attention.

The Bible is here to guide those who do not have or choose not to pay attention to the truth! It is an overcomplication of the simple way of things. It is there as a great story but also as a guide to those who need it.

If you don't need that as your guide, who cares if you don't know the verses or not? God knows you. You know God, but you don't admit it, just like every other stubborn egotistical self-accomplished overly-intelligent unwise people out there.

Besides, it is entirely possible for the Bible to have been changed in many ways... so it is best to use our logic and our intuition to understand the nature of things and only use our religious texts as guides. God is not going to judge us on how much of the Bible we find to be factual, but by our faith in the sacrifice of His Son and/or our works and the reasons for why we did them.

If you are truly the person who does good things without any real thought of repayment or compensation or applause or recognition or any reward, and even in the face of adversity, then you are already there. Just give credit where credit is due. How are you here?

reply to post by TarzanBeta

You did not respond to one thing I said besides by saying that you are not appreciative that you are alive - except that earlier you said towards your parents.

Actually I said I don't thank God for my life.

Yes, people should be good regardless of whether there is a reward or not, agreed. But being good doesn't just mean "meaning well". It means paying attention and having the foresight to see ALL those things all the time around you. If you do that, that is proof that you care and do not take any of it for granted. When you write off things like that as just "accidents beyond our control", you allow others to take control of your life for you. The irony in your attitude is amusing.

I'm not saying everything is an accident, some things are the result of bad people doing bad things, but some things ARE accidents and happen "by chance" (which is clearly an extremely foreign concept to you). True goodness is doing good things with the intent of bringing other happiness, not because you're told, or forced, but because you desire to, because you truly understand the importance of being a good person.

It is your problem if you fear eternal damnation. I can't help you there. I suppose the best way to fight that is to appreciate life and be thankful for it. It's not hard.

I do not fear eternal damnation, whatever that is supposed to be (you know pain and suffering would get kind of old after billions of years, it can only hurt so much before it no longer hurts at all). I'm saying people only fake their goodness because they fear hell.

The fact is, when we are dead, we are dead. I agree.

Hmmm? I do actually believe in a soul and death doesn't necessarily mean the end. I must be misunderstanding you, because you seem to be saying we don't go to heaven?

Would you do good for the rest of your life knowing that there is only death?

It might be, but there are so very few that would that we would not exist... we would be obsolete, eaten up - spit out. The world wouldn't have made it.

You do realize that atheism and/or agnosticism is the leading belief in many countries such as the UK or Australia?

So, stop resenting the Origin for what PEOPLE do. Stop resenting the Origin for other peoples' negative choices. Take personal responsibility for what you do and appreciate that you are alive. Stop blaming what people do on the Origin - get your head outta that rear end and stop associating the True Energy Source with the "Old Beard on a Throne" and pay attention to what is around you.

Wow, now that whole paragraph is extremely confusing. I though you were saying God plays some subtle role in every little thing that happens so I should be thanking him for my life daily? Now you're saying to stop attaching peoples actions to the "origin"? Everyone has complete free will and should take responsibility for what they do? NO SH!T. That's what I've essentially been saying throughout this whole thread Einstein.

So use your friggin logic. Feel your intuition. Pay attention.

I prefer a nice mix of logic and intuition, and I can tell you there isn't even the slightest bit if intuition telling me I need to be worshiping and thanking an entity I can't see or contact in any way. And I don't particularly like talking to thin air.

Besides, it is entirely possible for the Bible to have been changed in many ways... so it is best to use our logic and our intuition to understand the nature of things and only use our religious texts as guides. God is not going to judge us on how much of the Bible we find to be factual, but by our faith in the sacrifice of His Son and/or our works and the reasons for why we did them.

Exactly, I could not agree more with you. And this debate really has nothing to do with the bible, it has to do with our origins and the origins of God in relation to the meaning of life. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on, it's that God/truth/answers lie within us all, we just label it differently.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by chr0naut

 

Also, if there is a God (and I think there is) it makes sense that he created the world for some valid reason, that's my view.

Ok, lets say there is a God and he created the Universe, there could be a million different reasons why such a being would create us.

But none of those reasons would dictate the meaning of life.

Who created God in the first place, and why? What is the purpose of life for a true being like God?

Are you joking have you ever heard how he is infinite. meaning no beginning no end. Its something our intellect will never grasp.

My thought on the "meaning of life".

The "meaning" is something that can be applied only to human stuff. A men want to do something for a reason, and that reason is its meaning.
Things that do not come from a will, are simply a matter of cause and effect.
There is no "meaning" in ice melting. Ice melts because temperature rises.

Humans are NOT a human product. We are like ice: we happen to be. So we can search for a meaning in our actions, but not for our mere existence simply because it is something above us.

I think that looking for a meaning for everything is a childish attitude that we still have in our adulthood. When we are kids we ask continually: "why this, why that". when we grow older we slow down and accept that sometimes there is no clean and easy answer.

Of course believing in some kind of god can give you an answer. I don't believe in god but neither need a "meaning" for my life. But of course I am ok with those who believe the opposite.

reply to post by WhizPhiz


Different sayings, different beliefs:

Meaning of life is to live a life or pupose.

Life is a test

Reincarnation states you die and come back each time learning something each time.

Really comes back to what you believe. The meaning of life is different to lots of people.

This is what i think, from my own viewpoint and experiences
Just think about it, my friend, we all are god , if you went to the center of the universe, you wouldn't find god but yourself, because every where we go we feel as the center of the universe. It could be difficult to ingest in some way but just stopping and looking around, gave me this simple explanation.

Peace to you

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by G.A.G.

 

"What if", it just so happens we weren't designed by a creator, but did actually just evolve due to the right circumstances over billions of years...than there is no inherent meaning in life, it's that simple...even if we were designed by God the situation isn't much different in reality, that's what I'm trying to get at...there is no one set meaning or purpose for why we are here and what we should be doing...but I know I'm ridiculously lucky to be able to experience what sentient life is like and explore reality as a self-aware conscious observer. I don't need a creator to appreciate life, if someone deigned it - good on that someone - but it could still all happen naturally. It's like that saying about the monkeys on the type writers, after a certain amount of time structure and order will randomly appear in what they write. Someone could have intentionally wrote those things, but those things can also just so happen to write themselves with enough time.

edit on 8-2-2011 by WhizPhiz because: (no reason given)

I am sorry...I think you have said exactly what I said but with "more" words. Or, I am not clear why your being so critical .

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by chr0naut

 

What we know (and believe) of our universe is that is seemed to have started in a big bang about 13.5 billion years ago.

Yeah, but that's merely the start of our Universe. There's simply a missing gap of information for anything that may have happened before that, and thus we assume nothing did actually happen before that. Suddenly, time just started and stuff exploded into existence, and forget everything that may have happened before that. It's like saying we are at the center of the universe, except you're saying we are like the first ever universe ever and nothing ever existed before our universe full stop - not even time.

See, because how can time start, or anything at all even happen when there is no time? That's my point. Scientists are like "It...just happened...deal with it".

EDIT: Which is the same thing as the people saying "God just happened...deal with it". They are both believing in unconfirmed ideas based on very flawed logic.

edit on 8-2-2011 by WhizPhiz because: (no reason given)

Okay, I'm going to offer a suggestion here. The thing is that whenever I offer this, I get a carload of clowns that drive up and every friggin' one of them that jump out have a new way of being irritating about what I'm going to share with you. One thing that they always seem to choke on is the concept of "truth" and whether there can be a "truth" that is not affected by anything that anyone else has embraced as "truth". In fact, most of these masters never even get past that one word, as if the word itself - regardless of how it is used - causes the entire premise to become null and void. That means that I have to establish what the word "truth" in this specific context means before I can offer my suggestion concerning where everything - and I mean everything - started.

Truth - in this very specific application - means "a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like:" (definition #3 - dictionary.reference.com...) It is not relative or affectable, and describes the exact definition of what can be qualified via raw logic as being completely and unambiguously true. Any other definition of "truth" - for this very specific application - will not be accepted as a valid definition.

The other word that gets flagged is Absolute. In this presentation, the word is limited to this very specific definition: something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc. ( opposed to relative). (#14 - dictionary.reference.com...). Any other definition of "absolute" - for this very specific application - will not be accepted as a valid definition.

There, with that, and with all implications in full effect, I'll offer you a link to a quick presentation concerning the very initiation of physical existence.

autogenesisism.com...

Now, of course this depiction relies on the application of logic and logical extrapolation, but when dealing with something like this, that is all that can be relied upon. The premise, as a stand alone notion, has been vetted thoroughly by very experienced logicians, and while no one can honestly sign off on it (after all, who honestly could?) it has not failed in the one test that all theories must pass - internal logical consistency and associability with all points where the theory touches the established reality that surrounds it. In the world of theories - math, science, physics, whatever - this requirement set is what determines the legitimacy of a theory to persist as an acceptable theory. It is only if the internal logic fails, or the relationship between itself and the thoroughly established real that contains it fails, that a theory fails. With that criteria applied, this theory has survived again and again.

It does suggest one aspect that is still being pursued, but I have to admit that I'm extremely optimistic that it, too, will survive the vetting process - although that process may take some extended time and wider exposure to complete. That aspect is the retirement of the particle as the unitary basis of physical existence, and the acceptance of the causal pair - event and information - as being the true existential unitary basis. Time, as they say, will tell. I'm pretty optimistic though. Employing this tag-team as the basis immediately opens up the door to more explanations that you can imagine.

i'm sure 42 has been mentioned and thanks for all the fish!

"It’s perhaps the biggest, most controversial mystery in the cosmos. Did our Universe just come into being by random chance, or was it created by a God who nurtures and sustains all life?

The latest science is showing that the four forces governing our universe are phenomenally finely tuned. So finely that it had led many to the conclusion that someone, or something, must have calibrated them; a belief further backed up by evidence that everything in our universe may emanate from one extraordinarily elegant and beautiful design known as the E8 Lie Group.

While skeptics hold that these findings are neither conclusive nor evidence of a divine creator, some cutting edge physicists are already positing who this God is: an alien gamester who’s created our world as the ultimate SIM game for his own amusement. It’s an answer as compelling as it is disconcerting."

- Tv show called through the wormhole tries to find evidence for the existence of god and claims that we could be living in a virtual world.Narrated by Morgan Freeman with five other episodes which try to explain things like black holes and what happened before the beginning.i highly recommend this tv series to anyone who is as interested in science as i am.

"the Ultimate meaning of Life" = "enjoy your stay"

Originally posted by jhnsmth
I always thought the answer to the ultimate meaning of life was 42, but maybe these jehosephats are on to something here....


Naw, it's 42.

w-h-a-t-i-s-n-i-n-e-m-u-l-t-i-p-l-i-e-d-b-y-s-i-x .....remember
arthur and ford laughed and laughed and spent the evening with two pretty girls

the question and the answer regarding life, the universe and everything are mutually exclusive.
knowing one, you cannot know the other.
even if you know one, you cannot know if it is right one.

Gods final message to creation, and marvins final solace for the eons of despair:

S-O-R-R-Y-F-O-R-A-L-L-T-H-E-I-N-C-O-N-V-E-N-I-E-N-C-E

for me also, if you can, when you can-----

LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH
LAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGHLAUGH

then, take a break and enjoy a hob-nob.