Originally posted by w4HoO

OP, I think you missed my point. There is a huge difference between the President speaking from the pulpit and him writing things into law. Are you arguing that workers shouldn't receive better pay where applicable?
I see people in this thread arguing policy, where none has been suggested.
I didn't hear an ultimatum in Obama's speech. He didn't say "We're passing all these tax reforms, so I'm gonna pass a bill dealing with minimum wages"
He's only "suggesting" business practices. He's at a "business conference". Those businesses don't have to listen to Obama, and you know most won't. When he writes a bill mandating it, or hands out incentives for it then I'll consider it newsworthy and raise concern.
If you want to charge Obama for making empty statements to please an electorate, then I could agree with you. I just don't see anything worth the amount of concern that posters here are giving it.

the point of the OP is really more one of this being an erroneous philosophy from which he makes the statement. Again - saying that if possible workers should earn more money to a group of business leaders is like saying "you really should breath because it's good for you".

The point of that statement was to express what he feels should happen based upon the assumption that is NOT happening.

That's why it's an idiotic statement. That was the point of the post - not to get into some long debate about policy - but others do as they will.

Companies pay their people - at least the good ones - as much as the market will bear. This is impacted by a variety of things, but chief among them is the ability to make and sell goods or services at a competitive cost. ONLY government can hire more people than you need because they are not worried in the slightest about profit margins. If they loose money - they just raise more through taxes and/or debt.

does that make my point better?

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by gncnew

Unions are good? Really - tell that to Detroit.

I'm well aware (as a "worker") that companies need the workers... but I'm also well aware that my job is a contract for services between myself and the employer and if I feel that contract is due for renegotiation - then it's on me to start the talks - not them.

You're very naive if you think the mess in Detroit is the fault of Unions! I know that y'all have been trained to believe that Unions are at best, criminal organisations - I watch American TV as well, it's all we get here in NZ.. But it's not so, unions are the only things between workers and starvation sometimes!
This thread has grown ridiculously since yesterday when I posted my first response, and I have not had the chance to read it all, but I've seen some absurd insults against minimum wage workers. Here, the minimum wage had just gone up to $13.00/hour - which is absurdly low.
(Though I am sure to y'all, that's seems absurdly generous... I heard Oprah say back about 2001, that your minimum wage was around $5.00/hour. That's virtual slavery. I've heard unemployment in the USA is around 19%, so I am sure that there are thousands of educated intelligent people who have no choice but to work for minimum wage, and furthermore, get insulted by the Right Wing, for having to do so.
What's with y'all? It could happen to you any day..
V.

My mother-in-law and father-in-law both worked for unions. And they were both laid off. Meanwhile the Toyota plant that is specifically non-union is flourishing and the employees are happy with their wage... I know - you're asking "How can this be!".

The problem with Unions is they outlasted their usefulness and because like government - feeding like a tick off their members.

Now they push insane stipulations on the companies that make it completely impossible to stay competitive... why? Because they need to keep making those workers happy or they'll lose their jobs. But they've long since stopped representing the best interests of their members.

Again - if you disagree please tell me what you think caused GM and others to close down their Detroit manufacturing jobs.

You should never get paid more than a manager at McDonalds to push a single button all day... and get free health care and a retirement package until you die.... It's too bloated and now it's killing the industry.

Thanks unions!

Originally posted by gncnew
... the Toyota plant that is specifically non-union is flourishing and the employees are happy with their wage.

Just as American jobs went to other countries with low wage workers, foreign companies who set up shop in America went to areas where wages were lower. Worker income at these non-union plants are now comparable to union plants for a couple reasons. One, just as my dad never worked a union job but always declared that the only reason he had decent wage and benefits was due to unions, unions put pressure in the labor market. Two, union changes in wage structure (to lower wages for new hires, for ex) and "save" the company.

Post WW2 wages built up the middle class. Post 1980 declines in wages helped tear it down, helping to set the stage for the current economic disaster.

Originally posted by gncnew

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by gncnew

Unions are good? Really - tell that to Detroit.

I'm well aware (as a "worker") that companies need the workers... but I'm also well aware that my job is a contract for services between myself and the employer and if I feel that contract is due for renegotiation - then it's on me to start the talks - not them.

You're very naive if you think the mess in Detroit is the fault of Unions! I know that y'all have been trained to believe that Unions are at best, criminal organisations - I watch American TV as well, it's all we get here in NZ.. But it's not so, unions are the only things between workers and starvation sometimes!
This thread has grown ridiculously since yesterday when I posted my first response, and I have not had the chance to read it all, but I've seen some absurd insults against minimum wage workers. Here, the minimum wage had just gone up to $13.00/hour - which is absurdly low.
(Though I am sure to y'all, that's seems absurdly generous... I heard Oprah say back about 2001, that your minimum wage was around $5.00/hour. That's virtual slavery. I've heard unemployment in the USA is around 19%, so I am sure that there are thousands of educated intelligent people who have no choice but to work for minimum wage, and furthermore, get insulted by the Right Wing, for having to do so.
What's with y'all? It could happen to you any day..
V.

My mother-in-law and father-in-law both worked for unions. And they were both laid off. Meanwhile the Toyota plant that is specifically non-union is flourishing and the employees are happy with their wage... I know - you're asking "How can this be!".

The problem with Unions is they outlasted their usefulness and because like government - feeding like a tick off their members.

Now they push insane stipulations on the companies that make it completely impossible to stay competitive... why? Because they need to keep making those workers happy or they'll lose their jobs. But they've long since stopped representing the best interests of their members.

Again - if you disagree please tell me what you think caused GM and others to close down their Detroit manufacturing jobs.

You should never get paid more than a manager at McDonalds to push a single button all day... and get free health care and a retirement package until you die.... It's too bloated and now it's killing the industry.

Thanks unions!

gncnew is absolutely correct with his statements regarding the unions. I have seen the same trend in the chemical industry. I work for a non-union chemical plant and have seen the unionized plants fail while the non-union plants flourish. I have several friends that work at union plants and some of their work ethics are horrible since they feel that the union lawyers will protect them when not performing their jobs at their full potential.

A job is not a right it is a privilege. The correct means of protecting that privilege is through performing at and above the standards set for your particular job responsibilities. You take care of the company and the company will take care of you!

A bit off topic here but I just finished my taxes. I consider myself middleclass and am a bit angry at the amount of taxes I had to pay. I wonder why it is that most people consider our social programs in America such as social security, welfare, and foodstamps the largest burden upon the taxpayer when the current federal income tax system we have here is the largest wealth redistrubution burden amongst them all?

the automakers have been on the decline since the 70's, it was the imports that set it on that decline.
and, the housing bust, well, alot of the retirement funds were invested in those cdo's so I'm pretty sure that it played a role in their current problems.

most of the country's workers do not work for unions!!!
the unions aren't the problem. the problem is that the American People refuse to degrade themselves to the point where they have to wear air filters to avoid the smog, and live in a cesspool of toxic waste. And, they aren't gonna live in a small, stiffling living space on a bowl of rice a day! And, that is probably a good description of how we would be living if we have to compete with the present day india and china!
One of the requirements of them getting our trade should be that they abide by some general rules that assure that their people are lifted up to our standard of living, not we be degraded to theirs!

Originally posted by dawnstar
the automakers have been on the decline since the 70's, it was the imports that set it on that decline.
and, the housing bust, well, alot of the retirement funds were invested in those cdo's so I'm pretty sure that it played a role in their current problems.

most of the country's workers do not work for unions!!!
the unions aren't the problem. the problem is that the American People refuse to degrade themselves to the point where they have to wear air filters to avoid the smog, and live in a cesspool of toxic waste. And, they aren't gonna live in a small, stiffling living space on a bowl of rice a day! And, that is probably a good description of how we would be living if we have to compete with the present day india and china!
One of the requirements of them getting our trade should be that they abide by some general rules that assure that their people are lifted up to our standard of living, not we be degraded to theirs!

I completely agree. I think that the problem with the American Left right now is they think we are already at the point of a bowl of rice a day - they refuse to accept just how blessed we are and then fight to force other major economies to raise their quality of life to our standard.

They're so busy trying to improve the quality of life here (which if put in perspective is completely AWESOME) that they neglect the larger problem and what should be the "good fight".

How about instead of trying to equalize American and bring the rich down to lift the poor we simply try to equalize the rich and poor of our largest importers? Maybe after we get that fixed we could actually address the rich/poor "gap".

I'm hoping, probably against all hope, that it would mean that the companies that the lower wage earners work for will have to pay a bigger share of their rent, their food, their medical care, their heating bill, and I might have a little more money not taking from my check to do this for them!!!!
after all, the companies that these employees work for have a bigger interest in them being taken care of than I do....their welfare, doesn't effect me whatsoever.....at least until they come into my realm and start rioting or whatever....

and well, why in the world, would employees who are getting the rest of their needs taken care of by the fine taxpayer, demand a raise, which if they get, well, they might find themselves in a position where they don't get the handouts, but can't pay the bills???