Obama: "Profits have to be shared by workers" ... Idiodic Statements for $500 please!

reply to post by JR MacBeth

...While people argue about "capitalism" vs. "socialism", waving flags, not even knowing what they're behind half of the time, the spiral you mention continues.

There will be MANY victims here, regardless of their persuasion, and extremely few winners.

What I find interesting is the fact it isn't even "capitalism" vs. "socialism" it is just one flavor of "collectivism" - Fabians vs another flavor of "collectivism" - Lenin/Marxists.

The side we call "capitalism" is really the Fabians/Fascists (we call them Bankers)

Real capitalism died a hundred years ago, when Fiat money/Fractional Reserve Banking system was enacted under the color of the law despite its being unconstitutional. Real capital/wealth was driven out by the "counterfeit" bankers notes. Prior to the Federal Reserve Act private capital formation was used to fund business, that is an individual or a corporation uses their own savings to pay for something instead of going to the bank and borrowing.

Think about it for a second. If Capital is REAL wealth, the product of your labor, then "leveraged buyouts" can not happen because no one is going to lend their hard earned wealth to investors who put up a hostile company that they do not even own as collateral! (How the heck that is legal in the first place I will never know)

The speculation of the Roaring Twenties and the speculation of the Eighties was all based on BORROWED fiat money and in both cases has lead to the devastation of US businesses and a major Depression.

...There are many giant corporations today that are just hanging in there by the skin of their teeth because of their debt overhead. The fact is that many of these companies now send more money to the banks every quarter in the form of interest payments on their loans than they send to their stockholders as dividends on their stock. Think about that for a minute. The banks which had no part in the operation of the company whatsoever, the banks which made this money out of nothing are making more money from these industries than the people who work for the money, save the money, invested the money and risked the money to own those corporations. This is because they quite successfully reversed the trend toward private capital formation and they did it with a flexible currency. The Federal Reserve System gets an A+ on its report card for objective number two: ..entice people back into the banks to borrow money and to reverse the trend toward private capital formation. www.bigeye.com...

Secrets of the Federal Reserve, pg 142 CHAPTER TWELVE - The Great Depression details the Federal Reserve's intentional maneuvering that brought about the 1929 stock market crash. www.apfn.org...

Originally posted by gncnew

Originally posted by w4HoO
I don't know OP. I'm not an Obama fan, but I think you're reading into this too much. In the excerpt of the speech that you posted; I didn't take the whole Marxist message like some others did. I only see it as him using his status as Prez to promote better conditions for workers. He wasn't talking about making it a policy. He was only making recommendations to business owners. There's nothing wrong with promoting your ideas and concerns, it's when you get behind the pen and begin mandating these policies that Constitutionality becomes an issue. Maybe I missed something, or I'm reading it wrong, but that should be the only thing a President is good for; preaching from the bully pulpit.

I guess I'm just very cautious about POTUS "suggestions" - especially when they're tied to speeches about fiscal policy.

Example:
I'm the president of your bank. I say "before I look at reducing interest rates on your loans I suggest you look at increasing your payments".... what would you take from that.

OP, I think you missed my point. There is a huge difference between the President speaking from the pulpit and him writing things into law. Are you arguing that workers shouldn't receive better pay where applicable?
I see people in this thread arguing policy, where none has been suggested.
I didn't hear an ultimatum in Obama's speech. He didn't say "We're passing all these tax reforms, so I'm gonna pass a bill dealing with minimum wages"
He's only "suggesting" business practices. He's at a "business conference". Those businesses don't have to listen to Obama, and you know most won't. When he writes a bill mandating it, or hands out incentives for it then I'll consider it newsworthy and raise concern.
If you want to charge Obama for making empty statements to please an electorate, then I could agree with you. I just don't see anything worth the amount of concern that posters here are giving it.

Originally posted by gncnew

Originally posted by TarzanBeta


Usually, but definitely not all friend.

I know a couple of geniuses who have figured out life working close to minimum wage.

And their lives are an adventure for sure.

There is a quote from a movie somewhere... "Your education will most certainly interfere with your learning."

You're speaking almost entirely of the exception though - not the rule. For the sake of "argument" can we please forgo the rare exception?

The point of my argument must be made so plain?

Lack of personal responsibility IS the wound. Wasn't you who said that we should not treat the symptoms but the problem... paraphrased from earlier?

No one can force people to take responsibility... not really. But I can tell people that this is the true problem - regardless of people want to hear it or not.

All of the world's problems are centered on this one basic principle alone.

Now taking personal responsibility is extremely difficult if you don't care much for yourself or other people.

But if you can learn to do that much, you automatically desire to take on whatever burdens you can.

This isn't an ideal, it's a possible reality. It's just a matter of people breaking free from the slavery of external governance and learning to govern their selves.

I repeat - the only reason why governments get more power is because we give it to them in exchange for "freedom". But when you pass on responsibility for yourself to those who you believe is above others or speaks for others or tells others what to do, then you are giving that person power of attorney over you!

Originally posted by gncnew

Unions are good? Really - tell that to Detroit.

I'm well aware (as a "worker") that companies need the workers... but I'm also well aware that my job is a contract for services between myself and the employer and if I feel that contract is due for renegotiation - then it's on me to start the talks - not them.

You're very naive if you think the mess in Detroit is the fault of Unions! I know that y'all have been trained to believe that Unions are at best, criminal organisations - I watch American TV as well, it's all we get here in NZ.. But it's not so, unions are the only things between workers and starvation sometimes!
This thread has grown ridiculously since yesterday when I posted my first response, and I have not had the chance to read it all, but I've seen some absurd insults against minimum wage workers. Here, the minimum wage had just gone up to $13.00/hour - which is absurdly low.
(Though I am sure to y'all, that's seems absurdly generous... I heard Oprah say back about 2001, that your minimum wage was around $5.00/hour. That's virtual slavery. I've heard unemployment in the USA is around 19%, so I am sure that there are thousands of educated intelligent people who have no choice but to work for minimum wage, and furthermore, get insulted by the Right Wing, for having to do so.
What's with y'all? It could happen to you any day..
V.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by gncnew

 

The individual is not dead. The few DO matter. It is the basis for the Electoral College (to prevent mob rule), not to mention the freedom of speech.

They may be trying to kill the individual in their bid for a world government....but that is the fight that I am fighting.

Amen to that. The Electoral College is good in theory, but once again, when you give others the responsibility of speaking for you, the system fails.

As well, I believe gncnew was being slightly sarcastic and believes I am speaking of ideals instead of reality.

But the problem is that if we bicker about the symptoms, we get nothing done.

I am continually stating the problem - the whole reason why what Obama is saying is completely out of line.

And what Obama is saying is what people want to hear - which is why I know that people do not understand personal responsibility!

And yet, also, there are those that are against what he is saying but still believe in the same tenet - force people to do what you think.

That's not possible! Even if you force people to do something they don't want to do, they still don't want to do it.

It's a major flaw with the whole thing. If the people who have the power now to reach all the masses to speak such as Obama would just simply say, as I would if I had the podium, "Start taking personal responsibility for what you do. Stop relying on everyone else and take charge of your life and do good. Do not complain when bad things happen because this is how we grow and learn to see the good. We are children at heart, but our minds mature. We learn how to be good and yet at the same time strict and focused. If you can't do that for yourselves, you suffer the consequences of what you allow the world to be. You should not blame the world for your problems because it is only you who is capable of overcoming those obstacles for yourself. If you do not like where you are at in life, then obviously you have a calling that you are choosing not to answer. IF you do not appreciate what you are given, whether it be a gift or pay in exchange for your goods or services, then what do you appreciate? Focus on what you do have and do not think of what you do not. If you did not know that others had personal jets, you wouldn't be disgusted by it. But now you know - but what good does it do you to be disgusted? Has your reality changed knowing what someone else has? How could you appreciate your own vehicle if you are resentful for what you don't have? IF only everyone could have the entire world! But we do. It is because all of you choose to desire for yourselves instead of want for everyone around you that you fight over a world that actually belongs to all of us. What is the point of living if we constantly want to be someone else? And yet, you are on the outside looking in. Of course it is easier to appreciate what everyone else has that you do not. But that is because we are like babies, wanting whatever the other baby has just because the one found it interesting. But then, if the one were to drop that thing, you would also become uninterested because it isn't worth anything to you if it isn't worth anything to the one baby.

And that is what it boils down to. If we are to act like babies, then we need to build a system which will gate us inside a secure place so we don't fall down the stairs. But if we act like human adults, then we know what we want for ourselves regardless of what others want. We know what we are supposed to do, regardless of who is not doing what they are supposed to. We know what we are worth regardless of who tells us we are not worth anything. We know that we are capable of whatever we put our mind to because we've come this far and we're still breathing."

Obama, from Godsend savior to village idiot. Peanuts, popcorn, cracker jack?

reply to post by Vicky32


detroit during its heyday was a model of hope and prosperity for the working man!!! its the corporations that packed up and left to make their cars for half the price overseas! you say they were scared off by the unions, i say they were scared off by profits. it just doesent make sense to pay the average man a decent salary to them. god forbid the average working man have a nice home, clothes and cars. bah humbug! what they really need is a slave race of people to do the work for them so they can stay "competitive".

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by gncnew

Unions are good? Really - tell that to Detroit.

I'm well aware (as a "worker") that companies need the workers... but I'm also well aware that my job is a contract for services between myself and the employer and if I feel that contract is due for renegotiation - then it's on me to start the talks - not them.

You're very naive if you think the mess in Detroit is the fault of Unions! I know that y'all have been trained to believe that Unions are at best, criminal organisations - I watch American TV as well, it's all we get here in NZ.. But it's not so, unions are the only things between workers and starvation sometimes!
This thread has grown ridiculously since yesterday when I posted my first response, and I have not had the chance to read it all, but I've seen some absurd insults against minimum wage workers. Here, the minimum wage had just gone up to $13.00/hour - which is absurdly low.
(Though I am sure to y'all, that's seems absurdly generous... I heard Oprah say back about 2001, that your minimum wage was around $5.00/hour. That's virtual slavery. I've heard unemployment in the USA is around 19%, so I am sure that there are thousands of educated intelligent people who have no choice but to work for minimum wage, and furthermore, get insulted by the Right Wing, for having to do so.
What's with y'all? It could happen to you any day..
V.

Unions are good in theory, but I have worked in a union here in the US and if I had to judge other unions based on the one I worked for, I would have to say that unions are the definition of a complete lack of integrity.

The workers in my union were helpless... sleeping on the job and getting paid.

I was supposed to be working the same zone with 5 other workers. I was like a fixture there. They would come and go every now and then.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the challenge, but if I was running that business and no union was in my way, I'd have fired those other 5 and paid myself 6 person's wages for running the show.

Obama ( Barry Sutaro) was a community organizer, a communitarian....
a communist.
As opposed to the other guy who was of Nazi sympathizer decent..

someone post this up seems like the government is taking over the media.. i wonder why maybe cause our monetary value is decreasing... hmmm
www.infowars.com...

reply to post by TarzanBeta


You are right. Unions are an abomination in the modern workforce. At one time, workers had to band together and fight for some rights. But anymore, unions do nothing but create a system of entitlement among the sectors that they "represent". Because of this entitlement, innovation and efficiency suffers. As well, things like compensation and pay structures end up locked into overly rigid models that tend to create hardships. Take the current difficulty in paying the promised retirements to UAW retirees.

What i need to know about Unions: business do not like to place employees in unions states. You end up paying more for employees that, while they may perform marginally better in the entry level positions (and have less absences and longer tenure), above that point you have the drag of the entitlement culture taking effect.

Texas is a "right to work" state. We have very business friendly practices. And we are looking pretty good, economically, because of this. Illinois, on the other hand, is a union state. Look at the austerity measures that they have taken.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

You are right. Unions are an abomination in the modern workforce. At one time, workers had to band together and fight for some rights. But anymore, unions do nothing but create a system of entitlement among the sectors that they "represent". Because of this entitlement, innovation and efficiency suffers. As well, things like compensation and pay structures end up locked into overly rigid models that tend to create hardships. Take the current difficulty in paying the promised retirements to UAW retirees.

What i need to know about Unions: business do not like to place employees in unions states. You end up paying more for employees that, while they may perform marginally better in the entry level positions (and have less absences and longer tenure), above that point you have the drag of the entitlement culture taking effect.

Texas is a "right to work" state. We have very business friendly practices. And we are looking pretty good, economically, because of this. Illinois, on the other hand, is a union state. Look at the austerity measures that they have taken.

I really think that it boils down to culture.

People in Texas as a whole generally get along with eachother. IN places where people get along with eachother and yet still have that focused attitude, business can be easier and more light-hearted.

Not to say that any state is perfect, and I daresay Texas will eventually head down that slippery slope... heck, y'all even got a little bit of snow to help it along.

But really, when you have a whole lot of negative competition instead of positive competition, as you find in most northern cities, and a lot of cities in general, you get a lot of childish crap.

If only Texas could hold on, but I fear it shall be taken over. Big cities bring the negative competition in and then people get in a panic and try to fight fire with fire and then fail because they didn't stick to their beliefs.

But then there is that whole globalization thing... I imagine with big cities in the midst, Texas has built its own trojan horses. As have all other "industrialized" countries.

Interesting... no one cares about those undeveloped countries. And yet, they'll be the only ones who are safe! Haha! They'll be rummaging through our rubble.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Detroit during its heyday was a model of hope and prosperity for the working man!!! its the corporations that packed up and left to make their cars for half the price overseas! you say they were scared off by the unions, i say they were scared off by profits. it just doesent make sense to pay the average man a decent salary to them. god forbid the average working man have a nice home, clothes and cars. bah humbug! what they really need is a slave race of people to do the work for them so they can stay "competitive".

No, Conspiracy Nut, I didn't say that! The person I was replying to said that it was the fault of the unions, I was defending them...
Vicky

Just after WW 2 my father was encouraged to join a union.
by a bunch of people with big sticks who didn't talk to more then one person at at time...
in a box car.

The best way to control the opposition is to be the opposition
wonder why the mob never thought of that


PS
Austerity is what people do when the evil banksters have stolen all their money.

Originally posted by notsoperfect
reply to post by galadofwarthethird

 

We have to create a society where the job is a right not a privilege. Or where the concept of the job is not even necessary because every body will be fed and housed for the minimum and so work is part of the joy like an extracurricular activity. I'm dreaming but it will become a reality.

Job is a necessity in this society and a condition for living, everybody is crazy and insane on this planet. I don't know what is the latest insanity of the people, whatever it is then that is the most profitable job right now. And I quess that would be the middle men, the managers or management, or even middle management.

It's the newest thing as of yet not fully grasped, so therefor it must be the cool thing, everybody wants to be his own boss, ah but alas if everybody was there own boss then nothing would get done or made. And pretty much everything that they put together to sell to each other was made by some unlucky fellow in a Chinese factory, or Indonesian or Indian factory, who hopes to one day become the middle man and not the maker of things, for making things is not in demand right now, its not as cool as managing things.

You see what you want is for everybody to be housed and fed, in a system that constantly must move on and overcome itself, you relay on it to give you this, while at the same time you want it to always be familiar and the same, that right there contradicts itself. And it can not be done like that from within the system, no matter what the newest trend is eventually it will have to move on, and yes even the middle men and all bosses can be replaced with something that is billion's of times more efficient at that job, no matter what they say it's not that hard to do what they do, trust me no one likes hard work no matter what they say. But if you want a better society were the daily grind is not on you mind constantly, and a job is as easy as finding a hobby, you would have to know about this society first.

This whole pyramid thing and planet has a purpose form what I have gathered and you don't want to know what that purpose is it ain't pretty, and what is happening today is the same old same old. It's an inversion of the past natures of humanity, to a new nature, a test, really to find those who are attracted to the path of least resistance, and eventually to eliminate them once they amass, and are no longer useful, its been done before in other civilizations, you know that whole, the last shall be first thing, because the greatest strength comes from the greatest weakness, when the dust settles there is usually only one standing, and so it will be, till there is a breach and a new type of human is created or made, and after that then the old types will not be necessary, so well you know the story, why is homo sapiens the dominant species now? So really all this stuff we argue is ultimately of no importance what so ever, and really its pretty boring.

What I think should be done is for what your ancestors have tried to do in the first place. Keep it separate, have a place were you can go back to, and live in two worlds, it is why the elites have country homes or ranches, because they know and have been told. That you can not have a clear perspective on things from inside the system/box, while in the rat race, its like trying to do math while running a marathon, you will end up failing at both. It's really as simple as having time to clear your head from all the bull# that accumulates during living in a society, you don't notice it during, but you will after you step out of the box and have time to reflect on some things.

Because what your really facing is the same old, it's a power struggle for dominion of factions among humans and there believes, that is what they were designed to do by nature and programing, same old same old, only using different words for the same meanings. What is a capitalist and what is a communist or socialist really , but a battle for Supremacy of opposing ideas and factions who want to be in control, and to be in control they need your consent.

So you see you cant really have a society were a job is a right, at least not indefinitely, and trust me you would't want that even if you knew how, unless you would want to become a biobot or something of that nature, then it wouldn't be advised. Though I got nothing against biobots, but they are a bit on the dull side.

reply to post by gncnew

Nice try... I really like the elitist condescension in the evening with a nice cold beer... I find that if you have to preface your entire statement with that - you're probably full of smelly brown stuff.

Thank you come again, no really your trying to hard, or actually are you even trying at all? because I have not noticed it. But WDTSG? remember that, were all full of it, I'm just trying to see were it goes out of curiosity, oh oh op's.... its heading for the fan, time to get your umbrellas out people, it will start raining soon.

reply to post by Vicky32


i was replying to the above post.

Originally posted by gncnew

Unions are good? Really - tell that to Detroit.

I'm well aware (as a "worker") that companies need the workers... but I'm also well aware that my job is a contract for services between myself and the employer and if I feel that contract is due for renegotiation - then it's on me to start the talks - not them.

actually, we have more people than we have jobs that NEED to be done. We create jobs just for the sake of creating jobs....we bribe a portion of the population into idleness with gov't givaways. all the while, automation and computers are displacing more workers. I think we've reached the end of the line on this way of life, and it's time to find another way, with a different value system, different' way of thought.
we're at a place where our machines could do nearly all of the work, and yet, we are still running as though every adult should be working 8 or more hours a day, doing something, anything......
for their daily bread.

we probably spend more money on "job creation" than we do on welfare and the other social programs.
and well, if we had a good paying job for every person, and every person had a good paying job, well....
our labor costs would probably end up being outrageous, because they use the unemployed to keep the labor costs down....you accept what they give you because you know there are 20 or 30 people out there who would be happy to take that job from you!

reply to post by gncnew


On the contrary...I still do not see much logic and reason. We quit being criminals.
Bully for us.

reply to post by crimvelvet

...There are many giant corporations today that are just hanging in there by the skin of their teeth because of their debt overhead. The fact is that many of these companies now send more money to the banks every quarter in the form of interest payments on their loans than they send to their stockholders as dividends on their stock. Think about that for a minute. The banks which had no part in the operation of the company whatsoever, the banks which made this money out of nothing are making more money from these industries than the people who work for the money, save the money, invested the money and risked the money to own those corporations.

Another great post, real food for thought.

And yet, while the banks are the elephant in the living room, people would prefer to keep arguing about whether unions are good or bad.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

And when too many of us do begin to focus on that man, the banks, then we usually get some real fireworks to distract us yet again. We'll get a good hot war, and then those of us who live through it, will grieve for our loved ones, and probably get right back to arguing about unions again!

JR