Report: Taliban Not Allied With Al-Qaida

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Taking risks to do what you believe is right.

Agreed.

Comprehension, here you think Proto said "Taking risks to do what you believe, is right" when he actually said "Taking risks to do what you believe is right" do you see now how they are very different statements, as usual Proto was right and your misunderstanding sort of negates your entire argument.

How is a mercenary killing for the corporation any different from a hood killing for the coke, don't get me wrong I don't disparage either but I acknowledge what they are without a judgement on their character, they are both guys after a buck and willing to kill to enrich themselves, no discernible difference.

Originally posted by Thepreye
reply to post by nenothtu

 

That's ok, I just think when talking around complex issues it helps to have a correct understanding of the issue under discussion, it avoids unnecessary arguments in an area where we are bound to have pertinent arguments, I've noted some piss poor comprehension skills in this thread folk arguing against a poster when they themselves don't actually know what the other poster actually said.

I totally agree why has the OP derailed her own thread?
The fact that they may be a deadbeat doesn't really offer anything of value to the topic of the thread which if I recall correctly was "[Taliban Not Allied With Al-Qaida ]"

Not OP is a deadbeat chucking citizens responsibilities.

reply to post by Mek-Tech


You see the OP derailing their thread and somehow admitting to being a deadbeat, bit of an extrapolation there.

I see Proto the decent fellow that he is expanding the discussion to cover the funding of the corp that does the invading that causes the resistance hence the corp's need to correct it's understanding of the relationship between AQ and the Taliban, this necessarily brings into question Proto's successful legal efforts to avoid funding the beast.

I stand by my view and see your view as biased and manipulative, hmm isn't that how wars start.

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Taking risks to do what you believe is right.

Agreed.

Comprehension, here you think Proto said "Taking risks to do what you believe, is right" when he actually said "Taking risks to do what you believe is right" do you see now how they are very different statements, as usual Proto was right and your misunderstanding sort of negates your entire argument.

No misunderstanding. I understood the word "right" to be the object of "belief", not the object of "taking risks", and I agree. In other words, I agree with the version without the comma.

How is a mercenary killing for the corporation any different from a hood killing for the coke, don't get me wrong I don't disparage either but I acknowledge what they are without a judgement on their character, they are both guys after a buck and willing to kill to enrich themselves, no discernible difference.

No difference at all in the actual killing, because killing is killing. The only difference would be in what motivates them personally. As I've said repeatedly now, it's not all about the money - if it were, there are easier way to make it than getting shot at. Now, to be honest that trade HAS gotten to be quite a lot more lucrative over time. The last contract I turned down paid 160k a year, pretty much tax-free. Had money been the ONLY motivator, I'd have jumped on that like a duck on a June bug.

Slightly off-topic: Regarding my tongue in cheek assessment of missing Iraqi WMDs above, I reckon WMDs just ain't what they used to be. I just got word that a 14 year old kid was arrested near here, and charged with "possession of WMD's". What did he have? a pipe bomb that they believe was filled with ANFO. THAT was his "WMD". Now, under these new and improved definitions of "WMDs", no nerve gas or nuclear material is required. Going by this new and improved definition, it seems that they really DID find those Iraqi WMD's!

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
Ummmm..this had been obvious from day one. The Taliban are fighting for control of Afghanistan, not because they hate the U.S and our freedom (though I am sure their idea of freedom is crap, but so is ours currently) but because they were the "legitimate" government their beforehand.

OK while others banter back and forth the rest of us can proceed on topic...

The Taliban were never the internationally recognized "Legitimate" Government of Afghanistan...
They took power in the chaos of the aftermath of Afghanistan's war with the Soviets. They are made up [mostly but not limited to] a mixture of Afghan Pashtuns from both Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as many non afghans from other gulf states. Also not all Pashtuns want nor support the return of the Taliban to power. Their homeland straddles both countries.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a24258d66a41.jpg[/atsimg]

The Afghan "Northern Alliance" which were in a civil war with the Taliban were the Internationally recognized "Legitimate" Government of Afghanistan before 2001...

Northern Alliance

The Islamic State government remained the internationally recognized government of Afghanistan. The Taliban's Islamic Emirate received recognition only from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates. The Taliban imposed on the parts of Afghanistan under their control their political and judicial interpretation of Islam issuing edicts forbidding women to work outside the home, attend school, or to leave their homes unless accompanied by a male relative...

Islamic State of Afghanistan

The Islamic State of Afghanistan was the name of the state of Afghanistan after the collapse of the communist regime, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, in 1992. In 1996, the country was renamed the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan by the Taliban, after seizing control of the majority of the country. The United Front (United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan, UIF), known in the West as the Afghan Northern Alliance, was created by the Islamic State of Afghanistan that same year. It was the legitimate representative of Afghanistan in the United Nations until 2001, when it became the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

reply to post by nenothtu


I don't know you , i judge your opinions from your posts and i don't have intentions to offend you personally. If you can't see the picture in the world and the difference between patriotism and false patriotism that is not my fault.Patriotism ,courage and bravery is not invading other countries on basic on false stories like WMD or chasing some cave man hidden in Afghanistan which was interviewed several times by western reporters .Patriotism ,courage and bravery is not playing the role world policemen and taking resources from other countries. Patriotism ,courage and bravery is when you defend your family ,country from outside attacks.Clear as that ! .US will not be a strong empire 1000 years ..all empires failing.So calm down , hide your knife and gun in basement , go dine with your family ,smile and dont talk about things which you are so biased.

reply to post by SLAYER69

The Taliban were never the internationally recognized "Legitimate" Government of Afghanistan... They took power in the chaos of the aftermath of Afghanistan's war with the Soviets.

Holy bean dip Slayer, you know a lot. Was it the Taliban we saddled up with to over throw the Soviets way back then?

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The Taliban were never the internationally recognized "Legitimate" Government of Afghanistan... They took power in the chaos of the aftermath of Afghanistan's war with the Soviets.

Holy bean dip Slayer, you know a lot. Was it the Taliban we saddled up with to over throw the Soviets way back then?

Thank you...

That's a very good question...


ummmm.... NO!

Although you'll hear that a lot around the boards they are not. We supported the Mujaheddin which were a mixture of many Afghan tribes that banded together to defeat the Soviets. After the Soviet Pull out in 1989 the US and others dropped the ball and did not follow up with Support to help rebuild a devistated country and economy.

As the tribes started to fight amongst themselves over how to run their country after the Soviet puppet Government collapsed the Taliban ruthlessly seized power in 1996 a full 7 years after our support for the Mujahadeen ended back 1989

The Pashtun territories and others were divided it was easy to seize control. However once their power was established then the Civil war started...

The rest is as they say history...
Referencess

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


So you take responsibility for the massive head injuries they sustain due to lack of proper funding going to those out in the field? Each time you purchase something from the store, or buy gas, or do anything, you are contributing and paying tax. Whats the difference?

Originally posted by xavi1000
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I don't know you , i judge your opinions from your posts and i don't have intentions to offend you personally.

Fair enough.

If you can't see the picture in the world and the difference between patriotism and false patriotism that is not my fault.Patriotism ,courage and bravery is not invading other countries on basic on false stories like WMD or chasing some cave man hidden in Afghanistan which was interviewed several times by western reporters .Patriotism ,courage and bravery is not playing the role world policemen and taking resources from other countries.

If you believe that's what's going on, then I can understand your revulsion. You might try getting out in it and actually seeing for yourself if that's what is the case in fact as well as internet rumor, but should you decline, then go on believing as you do.

Re the "world policemen", I eventually got tired of policing the world. You'd think that over time they would have developed well enough to police themselves, but nowadays I don't think that will ever happen, so I'm content to just let them kill each other off. Well, until they decide to kill me or mine off. Then it's back to the salt mines. Other than that, I'm content to let them erase each other all day long, and eat their own oil. I don't think we should be trading with them at all, in any form. Not give up our money OR our food to 'em in trade for oil - see how long it takes for them to pine away for the good old days when those "evil world cops" were "stealing all their stuff". I'd say that by the 18th meal or so of eating sand and washing it down with crude, there's be a sudden re-evaluation of things.

Patriotism ,courage and bravery is when you defend your family ,country from outside attacks.Clear as that !

Something like that. I personally don't believe in "patriotism" at all, but those things you mention are the only things I've ever found worthy of fighting for. Now, to be honest, in days gone by I was all for tearing THEIR country up and carrying the battle to them, rather than tearing my own up by letting them bring it to me, but not these days. Nowadays, I'm all for just hunkering down here, cutting all ties to the rest of the world, buttoning up the borders, and letting them all fend for themselves. No more military except at the borders, whose function would be to obliterate anything, anything at all, that tried to swim, walk, fly, crawl, or dig it's way across those borders.

I don't even really care about preserving the US any more, since I perceive that the US no longer cares about preserving itself. The land will always be here, as will the people in one form or another, the government can bite me, and anything trying to attack/sneak in/ bother us in any way can just die as far as I'm concerned.

US will not be a strong empire 1000 years ..all empires failing.

I think that 1000 years is a generous estimate. The US I knew is ALREADY gone, and the US YOU know will not likely last 50 more years. It would surprise me greatly if it did.

So calm down , hide your knife and gun in basement , go dine with your family ,smile and dont talk about things which you are so biased.

I actually hide them elsewhere, but I don't tote them around with me everywhere - although I am NEVER unarmed. More to life than a gun and a knife - wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Dining with my family is no longer an option. I'll have a beer with you if ever your in town, though.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Although you'll hear that a lot around the boards they are not. We supported the Mujaheddin which were a mixture of many Afghan tribes that banded together to defeat the Soviets. After the Soviet Pull out in 1989 the US and others dropped the ball and did not follow up with Support to help rebuild a devistated country and economy.

I read that there was a deal with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to oversee Afghanistan.

The people of Afghanistan had no help from us, and the Taliban took over Afghanistan and turned it into a horror story for the people of Afghanistan and a horrible threat for the people of the Western world. But the Taliban, did, as I say, did not just emerge in power. It was there because the United States policy permitted it to be or even acquiesced to it or even supported the creation of the Taliban in agreement with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Congress ional Record Google Books

Strange isn't it?

reply to post by jackflap


We have a horrible record with getting involved in Civil wars, Vietnam and Korea etc etc etc. Wouldn't you agree?

I could understand the US Governments reluctance to get involved further at the time. The goal at the time [Proper historical context applies] was not to establish a new country nor was it to nation build. We supported the [Inclusive Mujaheddin] in their fight and eventual defeat of the Soviets not support for the Tribally [exclusive Taliban] which as that report will verify came years later after the Soviets pulled out.

That whole real Cold war history as it were.

reply to post by Doomzilla


By the same logic........Why should I pay school taxes when I have no children.Why should I pay taxes for welfare people to get medicaid and better coverage than I can afford for myself.Why should I pay taxes for a thousand other things the government provides that I don't use or need.The answer is that I have a responsibility as a citizen of this nation to abide by the laws laid down by the dually elected officials of the state.If I don't like what they do there are legal ways to change those same laws.What part of free country are you having trouble with.Every free country has ways for citizens to change or influence their representatives.I recommend you stop demonstrating your ignorance in public and try to learn about the system you live in.

Originally posted by jackflap

I read that there was a deal with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to oversee Afghanistan.

The people of Afghanistan had no help from us, and the Taliban took over Afghanistan and turned it into a horror story for the people of Afghanistan and a horrible threat for the people of the Western world. But the Taliban, did, as I say, did not just emerge in power. It was there because the United States policy permitted it to be or even acquiesced to it or even supported the creation of the Taliban in agreement with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Congress ional Record Google Books

Strange isn't it?

The US "acquiesced" in that they gave less than a rat's ass about Afghanistan once the Soviets were gone, and pulled out ALL support, for good or bad, in the wake of the withdrawal. We left 'em high and dry when we SHOULD have been assisting them in creating the country thy wanted. Some argued for just that sort of assistance, and got over-ruled by the higher-ups.

We didn't "support" the creation of the Taliban, Pakistani ISI did that all by their lonesome. The only support I'm aware of the Saudis providing in their formation was recognition of them as "legitimate", in contravention to most of the rest of the world. Pakistan, of course, provided the same recognition, since the Taliban was an ISI creation, intended for Pakistan to rule Afghanistan by proxy.

Careful of using that CR reference - it claims a fairly close alliance between AQ and the Taliban, through wahabbism.

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

So you take responsibility for the massive head injuries they sustain due to lack of proper funding going to those out in the field? Each time you purchase something from the store, or buy gas, or do anything, you are contributing and paying tax. Whats the difference?

Not sure what massive head injuries and what fields you are talking about, but I can assure you no one in my immediate surroundings is or has suffered any massive head injuries. Play safe, stay safe, look both ways before crossing the street and well, your head should be just fine! I hope any way.

Now without getting much deeper into this, I have made a moral choice and an ongoing effort to not feed the government or the corporations.

I employ a wide variety of tactics and methods in order to do that.

This includes not using certain energy sources, and using alternative procurement streams.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Anyone who wants to pretend your taxes are providing anything to me, well that's all you are doing is pretending.

Your taxes are used to pay the foreign debt, which is largely owned to European Lords, Nobles and the Vatican for the investments they made in building the infrastructure in the Colonial United States, the money they loaned local corporate interests to build it, and the resources they acquired in the process.

The United States Inc really is a business corporation where most of the most vital assetts that would make the United States a self sustainable enterprise were long ago and in most cases at the beginning sold or leveraged to international entities we pay in perpituity. With our taxes simply being used as a means to give us less in the way of goods and services in exchange for our labor.

Do you people really not understand that the Government prints the money and it is attached to nothing of value?

Do you people really not understand that a very small number of corporations and people control almost all of the earth's resources?

It's not about the money, it's about the control of owning everything, hording it, and only parting with as litte of those resources as they have to in order to maintain controlled chaos to divide and govern the people using Hegelian principles.

Look it is what it is, and if you want to pretend that it isn't well go ahead and pretend.

They don't need our money, they already control everything money can buy, except for our thoughts.

Which is why they try so hard to control those through divide and conquer tactics.

Bottom line all of you with hardly an exception are lying too yourselves, making compromises with yourself, and desperate to make excuses for a system that really doesn't serve one of you well.

You like to pretend, I don't.

You want to keep this system and be jealous of everyone and everything, fearful of everyone and everything, resentful of everyone and everything, go right the heck ahead.

But I am not lying to myself about it, and I am not paying for it.

The minute the rest of the world figures out that's the real way to go, is the minute we can make a truly peaceful prosperous world.

People they have been on this path for 2,000 years, using these same tactics for 2,000 years and they still haven't create a prosperous, peaceful and stable world.

It is absolute insanity and in reality slavery to imagine it's ever going to happen this way, with these systems.

Grow up people, seriously, you aren't fooling anyone but yourselves, and the oligarchs laugh all day long about how amazing it is people accept this as a way of life.

Following the path that they proivide for you with their rules is only going to take you right where you are, divided, confused, enduring hardship after hardship, calamity after calamity, and willing to kill in some cases for as little as a handfull of rice, in a world full of poverty, starvation, disease, unemployment, crime and deprivation.

This didn't happen by accident.

It happens by design.

I don't know what's wrong with so many of you, why you are so angry, why you hate so much, why you are so scared, but seriously it is what it is, and it will never change until you do.

Don't feed the beast.

reply to post by SLAYER69

The Taliban, alternative spelling Taleban, (طالبان ṭālibān, meaning "students" in Farsi and Pashto) is an Islamist militia group that ruled large parts of Afghanistan from September 1996 onwards. Although in control of Afghanistan's capital (Kabul) and most of the country for five years, the Taliban's Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan gained diplomatic recognition from only three states: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates.

en.wikipedia.org...

They were actually in control two years after the Soviets pulled out. They could have been stopped before they became too big, if you read the link I posted you'll see. Yes, it's a damn shame.

reply to post by jackflap


Hindsight being 20/20 yes the Could of/Would of/Should ofs will kill you every time...

As Neno has very eloquently laid out for everybody's intellectual consumption. Real history and turn of events is often stranger and has more twists, turns and curves than do some of the more over the top conspiracies.

If we are to really truly learn from our history so as not to repeat it's mistakes while avoiding pitfalls one must clear away misconceptions and or just plain wrong historical assumptions based on present day slanted political views and pop culture opinions with regards to real historical events.

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The Taliban, alternative spelling Taleban, (طالبان ṭālibān, meaning "students" in Farsi and Pashto) is an Islamist militia group that ruled large parts of Afghanistan from September 1996 onwards. Although in control of Afghanistan's capital (Kabul) and most of the country for five years, the Taliban's Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan gained diplomatic recognition from only three states: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates.

en.wikipedia.org...

They were actually in control two years after the Soviets pulled out. They could have been stopped before they became too big, if you read the link I posted you'll see. Yes, it's a damn shame.

Nope. Soviets pulled out over the winter of 1988/1989. The Taliban didn't even exist until 1994, and didn't claim to be in control until 1996 - almost 8 years after the withdrawal. In reality, at NO time did the Taliban control more than 60 % of Afghanistan, which portion constantly changed with the fortunes of the civil war. The Taliban were only ever recognized as legitimate by 3 countries that I can think of. Every one else recognized the Northern Alliance, per the original Peshawar Accords.

Originally posted by lonegurkha
reply to post by Doomzilla

 

By the same logic........Why should I pay school taxes when I have no children.

Im not asking you to
Why should I pay taxes for welfare people to get medicaid and better coverage than I can afford for myself

im not asking you to .
Why should I pay taxes for a thousand other things the government provides that I don't use or need.
Im not asking you to

The answer is that I have a responsibility as a citizen of this nation to abide by the laws laid down by the dually elected officials of the state
If you vote maybe yes , i dont

.If I don't like what they do there are legal ways to change those same laws.

Really? do tell more can you tell me how to "legally change " the patriot act for example?

What part of free country are you having trouble with.Every free country has ways for citizens to change or influence their representatives.I recommend you stop demonstrating your ignorance in public

IMO your the one displaying ignorance , you are the legalised slave not me . You are the one who defends slaughter of innocent people not me ,

and try to learn about the system you live in.
I think you need to friend , people like you are the illuminatis dream , you risk the lives of your kids to protect the elite NOT me . you are the gullible one who works his ass off just to make the rich richer . and defends the system more than you defend INNOCENT humans .

reply to post by nenothtu

Soviets pulled out over the winter of 1988/1989. The Taliban didn't even exist until 1994, and didn't claim to be in control until 1996 - almost 8 years after the withdrawal. In reality, at NO time did the Taliban control more than 60 % of Afghanistan, which portion constantly changed with the fortunes of the civil war. The Taliban were only ever recognized as legitimate by 3 countries that I can think of. Every one else recognized the Northern Alliance, per the original Peshawar Accords.

Makes you wonder how the Taliban ever did come to power then doesn't it?

I was always so frustrated about this, because I knew that the United States Government had a policy of supporting or at least acquiescing to this monstrous regime. For years, I was asking for our Secretary of State Albright to provide the papers to me as a senior member of the Commitee on International Relations to see about America's support for the Taliban.

Congress ional Record