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Another Chemtrail Question

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posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 



If you're trying to impress me with your credentials you're working against yourself. Few people are as indoctrinated as professional pilots. I know an American Airlines pilot who swears up and down 19 A-Rabs wiped out a bunch of skyscrapers in Manhattan using some box cutters and enough kerosene to fill an above ground pool.

The stuff pilots believe these days.




posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


Did I stutter?

"True or false:

Jets leave contrails, therefore everything I have seen must be a contrail.

Answer me or take a hike."



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by Yankee451
 


?????

What? Well.....now I see your perception problem. Apparently it affects other "beliefs" of yours as well.....




posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


You again?

Let me guess, you're a pilot too?

Come to spread your infinite pearls of wisdom to we poor swine? I thought the door hit you on the way out a long time ago.

I dare you, and your other two counterparts to show up at the same event all at the same time...kind of like that Batman episode where Alfred wore the Batman costume while Bruce Wayne and whatever his boy-toy's name was, frolicked with Gotham's jet set.

Which role will you play...hmmm...



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by firepilot
 


Did I stutter?

"True or false:

Jets leave contrails, therefore everything I have seen must be a contrail.

Answer me or take a hike."


True.
Jets leave contrails, so unless you have some specific evidence that says otherwise, there is no reason to believe that the trails I see coming out of jets -- the trails that one can sometimes see being persistent and crisscrossing the sky -- are anything but simple contrails.


edit on 2/19/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by Yankee451
 



Let me guess, you're a pilot too?


Nearly 40 years of experience. About 20,000 hours total time.

23+ career at a major U.S. and International passenger airline....with a route structure from Asia, to Australia to Europe. Other smaller commuter airlines prior. Flight intruction before that. All a part of the progress of my life, from the beginning. Many, many different types of airplanes, over that time too...

The fact that some people are NOT experienced or knowledgeable in certain technical matters isn't surprising....what IS surprising is when people fail to realize that they CAN learn from others. Education makes the world go 'round....those who reject science, learning, logic and reason are doomed to wallow in the gutter of continued, abject ignorance. Sad (and puzzling) choice for people to make....considering how simple it is, nowadays, to get facts that clear up the fallacies.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 10:04 AM
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Why does every "chemtrail" debunker get blasted for having some expertise, experience and knowledge?

Since when does the less you know make you more credible and trustworthy?

Face it, if you needed brain surgery, would you feel good about a plumber doing the operating? He could have watched lots of videos, seen lots of pictures, and read lots of words on the internet about neurology, so he must know what he is doing, right?

When you distrust anybody who doesn't share your same views who actually knows about the topic in question, you are not 'denying ignorance' you are actively choosing ignorance.

Open you mind to the possiblility that there will always be people who know more than you on just about any topic, and people who know a lot less than you in your own area of expertise.

I have studied the "chemtrail" question because I am a lifetime weather watcher, I can probably find you the correct science answer behind any "chemtrail" question. If I don't understand or can't find an answer, I defer to the meteorologists. While learning about "chemtrails" I have talked with many pilots, ATCs, aviation engineers, aviation mechanics, refuelers, even an aviation photographer. If I have a question about planes, I go to them. What I have learned from them I try to share.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


You haven't read the thread. I have given ample reason to suspect what I've seen aren't contrails.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by stars15k
 


Because of your obvious vested interest and dubious objectivity.

I repeat; few are as indoctrinated as pilots, especially those with a military background.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


All you're doing is proving you are too heavily indoctrinated to think clearly. Think outside the box or go back to weed eating.

If you believe a lightweight wing tip can slice through a steel and concrete building like a hot knife through butter without spreading serial numbered aircraft parts all over Manhattan, you could be watching kittens being sprayed out of jets and you'd still see contrails.
edit on 19-2-2011 by Yankee451 because: typo



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


I want to also stress that your bleating for "specific evidence" is absurd. I have a suspicion that what I saw is unusual, I am currently in the discovery phase of what was supposed to be a humble investigation, but has turned into a whirling four-ring circus with a clown in each ring.

Try to lay that logic on the next traffic cop who pulls you over for "reasonable suspicion"... course he'll probably let you slide because you hang out with pilots.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by stars15k
 


Because of your obvious vested interest and dubious objectivity.

I repeat; few are as indoctrinated as pilots, especially those with a military background.


Indoctrinated? As a pilot, I am not "indoctrinated" since there is no doctrine to aviation.

There are however doctrines and dogma to chemtrails. This idea that contrails can not persist, is a doctrine to chemmies. The idea that contrails must all look the same, is doctrine to chemmies. Seeing one plane making a contrail and seeing another not making a contrail, and that being proof of spraying, thats doctrine to chemmies.

The idea that the ground can not and should not have any metals or metallic compounds in it, and if its there, it came from airplanes, is doctrine to chemmies. i would still love to hear where metals like aluminum come from, if its not from the ground.

I have no "doctrine". Knowledge, science, and expertise are not doctrine based. I do not fly an airplane by doctrine, I fly it from ability and judgement.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by firepilot
 


Did I stutter?

"True or false:

Jets leave contrails, therefore everything I have seen must be a contrail.

Answer me or take a hike."


if you see a long trail up above coming from aircraft, then yes I would wager every penny I own that it is condensation trails from aircraft.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


I want to also stress that your bleating for "specific evidence" is absurd. I have a suspicion that what I saw is unusual, I am currently in the discovery phase of what was supposed to be a humble investigation, but has turned into a whirling four-ring circus with a clown in each ring.

Try to lay that logic on the next traffic cop who pulls you over for "reasonable suspicion"... course he'll probably let you slide because you hang out with pilots.


That cop has also been trained, and has specifics to follow. Chemmies do not have specifics, each one has their own little theory, and no training or expertise to back any of it up. Trying to a trained police officer looking for specific things to be suspicious of, and equating that to a conspiracy theorist with no knowledge of weathe or aviation, and looking at a contrail and being suspicious, is silly.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


Thank you.

Therefore, even if you saw something untoward, you would assume otherwise. You are behaving exactly as I would in the same circumstances. You care about people or else you wouldn't take the time to try to educate them.

Being of genuine good heart, as I am convinced almost everyone in the world is (even WeedWhacker) you are trying your best to help your peers see past a perceived hoax. I recognize your frustration, it's an old friend.

Now its my turn for disclosure...yeah, after 911 I don't trust government, hell I don't trust history. Therefore I am struggling with my own assumptions and pre-conceived notions which make my objectivity suspect.

As I look out my windows at the crystal clear, blue sky I can't help but be certain that for a good three years there was an unholy amount of haze caused by what seemed to me to be a huge increase in jet traffic. Paranoia? Possibly, that's why I need to check.

Thanks for the repartee. I like you guys, really.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


You haven't read the thread. I have given ample reason to suspect what I've seen aren't contrails.


I've read your evidence. The characteristics of a trail you attribute as NOT being possible for contrails are in fact possible for contrails.

The idea that contrails can sprrad out and cause cloudy days has been a known issue for farmers (who like sunny days) for decades now. In WWII, contrails from high-altitude bombers that persisted for hours were a problem for those bombers. because the enemy fighters could follow those persistent contrails.

These attributes of contrails have been known for several decades, since the beginning of high-altitude aviation..


Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


I want to also stress that your bleating for "specific evidence" is absurd. I have a suspicion that what I saw is unusual, I am currently in the discovery phase of what was supposed to be a humble investigation, but has turned into a whirling four-ring circus with a clown in each ring.

Try to lay that logic on the next traffic cop who pulls you over for "reasonable suspicion"... course he'll probably let you slide because you hang out with pilots.

And what is that reasonable suspicion?

Is it possible to spray chemicals from a plane? Sure it is. However, just because it is possible, that doesn't mean that the trails I see in the sky coming from jets are chemtrails. After your original "reasonable suspicion", you need to present more evidence that supports your suspicion that some contrails are actually chemtrails. It's quite a logical leap to go from "it's possible to spray chemicals" to "things that look like contrails are chemtrails".

...and, by the way, reasonable suspicion is not enough to arrest someone. You say you want to investigate, but you don't seem to want to listen to the evidence that those trails in the sky that persist for hours, spread out, and criss-cross can in fact be normal contrails. You can't seem to get past your original "reasonable suspicion".

I hope that cop you mentioned that pulls me over for reasonable suspicion follows all credible leads in his investigation, rather than putting an overemphasis on his original "reasonable suspicion".


edit on 2/19/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

edit on 2/19/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


Keep reading, I'm not going to keep repeating myself to someone wearing comically over sized shoes.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


Keep reading, I'm not going to keep repeating myself to someone wearing comically over sized shoes.

What's with the attitude? What's up with the insults?
Is that the way you start a debate with people -- by insulting them?

I had read everything, and others have already successfully rebutted your evidence.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


You're kidding, right? I get to soak up the dripping sarcasm from four of you guys and you take offense to the clown shoes bit? I thought it was clever, but I will be more polite heretofore.

I keep repeating myself...talk about insulting.

From the OP:

"One of the things I notice about many of the chemtrail threads is that they devolve into discussions about minutiae which tend to derail the conversation; so I’d like to avoid the details and just focus the time frame and photographic evidence. "

and

"Has anyone researched this and compiled a list of photos that show contrails behaving like they do today? There must be movies that include them; I know they are included in some recent cartoons and video games, but how about Hollywood? Can any film fans dig out some old videos from the 80s and show us skies that look like they have chemtrails in them? How about newer films? Are they there and when did they start showing up?"

and later after continually trying to talk down a few lofty pilots who want to keep discussing the details, I tried to paraphrase their position, which they agreed with, more or less:


"Jets leave contrails, therefore everything I have seen must be a contrail. "

So far, the only "debate" has been over the wording of our premises. Here's mine:

"Since jets leave contrails that can sometimes form cirrus clouds when certain conditions are met, I became alarmed at what appeared to be deliberate spraying in patterns designed to create a sun-blocking haze over the sky. I observed this phenomenon over several years while working outside. I work outside a lot, and have for several decades, so I became alarmed at the evident change in contrail behavior. It was starting to block the sun on most of the sunny days. I am searching for photographic evidence from the previous century in my attempt to answer a question which has been categorically denied and obfuscated by military and government spokespeople."

Aloysius provided some fine examples, but I am still not convinced.

We've been sparring but friendly, and it has been educational and entertaining, at least for me. I am only unimpressed with pilot credentials in the context of objectivity; I am otherwise very impressed with the technical education and dedication required to be professional pilots. I am happy to debate the level of indoctrination to which we have all been subjected on another thread.

So you need to slow down and read before you claim this is a "debate" and that others have "rebutted my evidence"; because it isn't, I'm not providing any;. If you'd like to turn it into one, we can go back to debating the logic of our premises.





edit on 19-2-2011 by Yankee451 because: typo



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


You're kidding, right? I get to soak up the dripping sarcasm from four of you guys and you take offense to the clown shoes bit? I thought it was clever, but I will be more polite heretofore.

I keep repeating myself...talk about insulting.


So, you don't like it when people are rude to you, but it's OK to be unilaterally rude to me?
wrong + wrong = right???

Back on topic...There are many more planes in the sky today than even 20 years ago, and those planes fly in parallel lanes along air routes. some of those air routes cross. Add it all up, and you have a greater number of criss-crossing planes leaving contrails than you had in the past.

Although, even in the past, people saw the artificial clouds produced by persistent spreading contrails to be a potential problem. I grew up near in a rural area in the early 1970s. I remember on the "farm reports" on TV that the farmers were concerned that spreading contrails caused by the ever-increasing number of jet airliners could cause some artificially hazy days -- which was bad for most farmers.

So farmers 40 years ago talked about the clouds caused by contrails.

Here's a picture from 1967 that shows a whole lot of contrails:
consci.s3.amazonaws.com...
Criss-crossing Contrail from 1972:
consci.s3.amazonaws.com...

More early contrails Here [link]



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