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Topic started on 20-3-2003 @ 12:58 PM by arc
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I'm not here to argue whether or not Satan exists - you'll all have your views depending on your religion and I respect that. I'm just curious
about a few things.
1. Just did an online search of the King James bible and there are only 57 references to Satan overall, most of which are in the NT. Why does Satan
not really feature at all in the OT and not much in the bible generally?
2. People frequently refer to satan as lucifer. When I did the same search lucifer is only mentioned the once, in Isaiah (OT)
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Now could this maybe be another name for Venus the morning star? I don't understand why if the author meant Satan, he didn't just say Satan.
So I'm a little curious as to how a fallen angel mentioned infrequently in the bible and then mainly in certain books, has risen to such prominence
in some people's minds as the greatest evil ever.
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 02:30 PM by supernut89
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well of course satin is real there is no doubting it but people shouldnt be following his ways. shouldnt be worshipping him you see what im saying.
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 02:41 PM by arc
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I'm not here to argue whether or not Satan exists
you didn't understand me
can you shed any light on how satan grew from being a relatively minor biblical character into lucifer the prince of darkness?
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 02:44 PM by Antichrist
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now look at such a bright answer...
I haven't much to comment on this, I am not a biblical scholar, I had heard before that satan wasn't mentioned as many times as one would expect in
the bible, I myself think Satan came into history when people begun to doubt, I think also if you search for "hell" or "sulfer lake" you won't
find many answers, IMO satan and hell were brought in to inspire fear and put people in the "right" (wrong) way, maybe they felt heaven's appeal
(lie) was not enough to keep people believeing and behaving like religious leaders wanted them to.
About lucifer, I have read somewhere that lucifer was a God (a good God indeed) of the roman (or was it greek) pantheon, but maybe I can be wrong I
really don't know
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 02:54 PM by arc
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I did find this article about who lucifer was on a masonic site. I'm just quoting the relevant part to this discussion as the article was primarily
discussing Albert Pike and most of it is not relevant to this topic
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art
thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!""
"The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language?
To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this
chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the
fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of
Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes,
writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even
mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer.""
"Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning
star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, "bringer, or bearer, of
light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated
as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King
Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King")."
"The scholars authorized by the militantly Catholic King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts,
but used versions translated from the Catholic Vulgate Bible produced largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the
Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a
disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and
in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and - ironically- the Prince of Darkness."
"So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who
identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in
Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the
bright and morning star.""
"And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say "Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God," while
others with knowledge of the Latin and Hebrew texts say, "No, Lucifer is the classical Roman name for the morning star, and now Jesus is the morning
star." This discussion can only anger certain fundamentalists. (I have at hand an evangelical tract from a Baptist church that says, "I believe in
the Infallibility and Preservation of God's Word, of which the King James 1611 authorized version is the God-guided faithful translation.")"
"Fortunately, this issue of errors in biblical translations is not one that we have to struggle with ourselves. Generations of biblical scholars of
all faiths have been aware of the mistranslations and of the misunderstandings that arise from the use of archaic terms whose meanings have been lost,
or have evolved into different usages. To address these problems a conference was held in October 1946, attended by delegates of the Church of
England, the Church of Scotland, and the Baptists, Methodists, and Congregationalist churches. At another meeting four months later, delegates from
the Presbyterians and Quakers joined the original group, along with representatives of various Bible societies. Still later, observers were sent as
representatives of the Roman Catholic Church."
"The work on a new translation of the Bible, direct from the sources, stretched out over several years. The most distinguished biblical scholars and
specialists in the world were invited to contribute, and every delegate was given the opportunity to review and express his own views on every verse,
every word, as presented by the translators."
"The result of this prodigious joint effort was The New English Bible, of which the New Testament was published in 1969 and the Old Testament one
year later."
"That does not mean that I have cast aside my King James version: I have them both. But I must recognize that while God may be the inspirational
source of all the Old and New Testament scriptures, He is certainly not responsible for the imperfect translations from the language of the earliest
surviving texts. To err is human, and men can become overzealous because of the emotional aspects of the subject."
"To the point, the verse in the King James version (Isaiah 14:12) that begins "How art thou fallen from heaven, 0 Lucifer..." has now been
translated directly from the Hebrew in the New English Biible as "How you have fallen from heaven, bright morning star..." There is no mention of
Lucifer, no reference to any disobedient angel plunging to hell, nor should there be."
another interesting site, this time on the history of Satan himself link
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 03:28 PM by MidnightDStroyer
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Using the KJV can *not* be considered an accurate version of the Bible...King James commissioned this translation for *political* reasons, not
religious reasons. Although there's more accurate methods of scholarship used to make corrections over the centuries, there's still a lot that's
not been corrected yet...You were right to consult with a scholar, Arc.
More info is included about the inaccuracy in the KJV (Particularly, how the KJV views the concept of Hell) & the literal *conspiracy* behind the
Doctrine of Bible Inerrency.
www.tentmaker.org...
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 03:39 PM by arc
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I didn't realise that MD - thanks.
What would you consider the most accurate version of the bible to be? I used the KJV purely as it was the one available on www.hti.umich.edu...
and could be easily searched.
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 06:10 PM by NinjaoftheNight
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From my research i believe that The passage in isiah where it uses lucifer is the descpiption of satans fall. Lucifer was an angel of some status and
believed that he should have the power of God. He delcared war as i guess you could call it on God. he fouhg with God and was banished to the firery
lake of sulfer aka hell. Along with him it is believed wen a good number of angels then called demons for following satan. The reason that he is
prominent is because of the spiritual role that he fills as a tempter. The Jews believed that satan existed and since they were very influential in
their time with other contries then their religion , including satan spread. this was then passed down through history and was maginfied at the
crucifiction of christ and then satan is put in the spotlight as the enemy of christianity. Throughout the romam/medival/rennesence age many people
were christian and therefore they knew of satan. That is how since the main population knew then that his infamy was spread. I hope this helped.
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 08:52 PM by Illmatic67
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There's more info about satan in the Qur'an then there is in the Bible
satan called Iblis in the Qur'an defied God. God ordered all angels to bow down to His creation, Adam. Iblis refused saying since God created him
from fire and Adam from clay, he was superior to Adam and he refused to bow down. Then he was cast out of heaven.
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 08:59 PM by Thomas Crowne
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Obviously a myth not supported by the Koran, Illuminati, as God would never have anything bow down to anything other than Himself.
Did you actually read those particular verses yourself?
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reply posted on 20-3-2003 @ 09:03 PM by Illmatic67
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Man, your really racking them up aren't you?
First of all, how do you know what God says or doesnt say
Whatever he says goes. Don't you understand God will ask you to do such stuff that is against your very belief to test your faith in Him?
Bowing down is not worshiping. People bow down to the Queen of England out of respect, not because they think she's the Mary incarnate.
Did you actually read those particular verses yourself?
No, I didn't. I was just thinking and the thought of there being a possibility of such a verse in the Qur'an popped into my head and I posted it
for the kicks.
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reply posted on 23-3-2003 @ 09:03 AM by Nans DESMICHELS
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One can gather under 2 categories the names associated with Satan:
Names describing its position:
ChÈrubin oint who covered - Ez.28:14
the head of this world - Jn.12:31
the head of the authority of the air - Ep.2:2
the head of the demons - Mt.12:24
the god of this century - 2Co.4:4
the angel of the abyss - Ap.9:11
Names describing its character and its actions
Lucifer (of Latin; carrier of light, that which shines) - Es.14:12, 2Co.11:13-16
Satan (of Hebrew ,Al-shatan; The adversary) - Za.3:1, 1Th.2:1-8
the devil (of the Greek Diaboolos: slanderer and accusing) Ap.12:9-10
the Ancient Snake, "tempting" forgery - Ap.12:9, 20:3 and 2Co.11:3
the destructor (of the Apollyon Greek and Hebrew Abaddon) Ap.9:11
the large red dragon - Ap.12:3
the malignant one - 1Jn.5:18-19
the tempter - 1Th.3:5 the spirit acting in rebellious wire, Ep.2:2
The Leviathan, The king of wild beasts (Job)
Rahab, The sea snake (Psaulms)
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reply posted on 23-3-2003 @ 09:12 AM by Nans DESMICHELS
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Originally posted by arc
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Another version (from lutherian bible) :
How are you fallen from the sky, son of the Dawn, shining star of the morning.
In Job there are also mentionned :
"Where were you when shining stars where singing the morning ?"
The apocalyps book mentionned two other stars of the morning :
Absynthe who turn water to bitter
Abaddon who inflame great babylone and is the king of the locusts...
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reply posted on 23-3-2003 @ 11:02 AM by MidnightDStroyer
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Originally posted by arc What would you consider the most accurate version of the bible to be? I used the KJV purely as it was the one
available on www.hti.umich.edu... and could be easily searched.
The most accurate interpretation would be by knowing what the translating scholars know about the original Hebrew texts & by researching the *history*
of the other translations through out the existance of the Bible.
I know, it's not easy to find the truth nowadays, isn't it? But that's because society itself is the enemy of truth...And it's been that way for
as long as humankind has been "civilized".
Originally posted by NinjaoftheNight
From my research i believe that...
Everything in your post is "traditional teachings", not the scriptures themselves. The original Hebrews knew *nothing* of Hell. It wasn't added to
canon until the Greek translations that mistook Sheol or Ghenna for Hades, then finally Hell as it's taught in modern times...In other words, the
Church itself invented & propagated lies throughout the history of the Church itself as they say it was since the Crucifiction.
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