A question for yall

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posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:11 PM
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Ive asked a few people about this, all of whom were self-titled "experts" on christianity, and I got very differing opinions.. So ill ask yall.

If a person kills himself/herself, does he/she goto hell?
Even if they led a good life and "accepted Jesus as their savior" ?




posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:29 PM
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I'm not a person to ask, but I believe the judeo-christian concept is actually you go to purgatory, to work off your sins



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:32 PM
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I thought that was catholicism in specific..
After posting this, I have found where it says that it is a sin, but not that it is "unforgiveable" or whatever.

Hmm, now im even more confused.. lol

Comeon Uber-christians! I NEED YOU



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:38 PM
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Sorry shidge, I'm not an uber-xtian but...

It's been my experience that the vast majority of people who take their own life are so depressed, disillusioned or lost that they cannot be held accountable. The pain one must feel to actually go through with such an act must be unbearable.

How could a supposedly merciful and omnipotent being ever condemn someone so desperate that death seemed a better option to life?



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:46 PM
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Maybe they do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars, and get to startight back to in utero and do it all over again since they couldn't make it the first time. But that is NOT a christian way of looking at things.



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:50 PM
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Well im trying to look at it from a christian perspective.

Kinda hard to get a definitive answer about something you cant see/touch/smell/converse with (at least not for sure
) hehe

I guess a simpler form of this question would be: Does dying with one grievous sin still on your soul (since the "blood of christ" allegedly washed away all other sins) condemn you to hell according to the bible/popular theology? Or is one or so sins excusable while "standing trial" in heaven?



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 11:54 PM
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from what i understand, you can get away with pretty much anything as long as you "accept" Jesus as your savoir. I'm sure they dont say it like that with the intent that people will go on a killing spree and then repent and be welcomed with open arms in to heaven. But i think that there are a lot of grey areas and un answered questions in organised religon and when questions like this are asked people are always scrambling to come up with a relative answer using some bit of scripture.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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posted on 13-7-2004 at 05:54 PM Post Number: 662473 quote by: Datura TB
from what i understand, you can get away with pretty much anything as long as you "accept" Jesus as your savoir. I'm sure they dont say it like that with the intent that people will go on a killing spree and then repent and be welcomed with open arms in to heaven. But i think that there are a lot of grey areas and un answered questions in organised religon and when questions like this are asked people are always scrambling to come up with a relative answer using some bit of scripture.


Well, the thing with that is that it only applies if you TRULY believe in Christ and are TRULY sorry for what you've done. Generally if a criminal accepts Jesus AFTER his crime, he can still go to heaven. Generally though, (Or in all cases if I might be so bold) real christians (Not members of weird religious cults) wouldn't go on a killing spree. If you truley believe in God then you wouldn't even do something like that. God has power, and one of those is to work through people that believe in him. About the killing yourself thing, that's a hard one. Mostly everyone I've talked to says, No, you don't go to hell". But those are mostly friends of mine that are those annoying (Sorry to say) hip, new-age, "God accepts EVERYTHING", teenager people that go to christian punk rock concerts and stuff (Not that I dis-like them, it's just kind of annoying). I do think that they don't go to hell though. I admit, I haven't read the whole bible. I'm not really a biblical scholar but I have discussed with people, and thought about alot of the things in the bible. God forgives everyone because Jesus died for our sins. If you're willing to accept him as your saviour, then you're saved. But what if you never got a chance to ask for forgiveness because you killed yourself first?

[Edited on 14-7-2004 by Herman]

[Edited on 14-7-2004 by Herman]



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 07:39 PM
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Well the stipulations are this:

The person has accepted Jesus beforehand.
The person asks for forgiveness for all their previous sins shortly before killing themselves.

I am thiiiis close to calling a local church/going in or something and asking lol



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 08:27 PM
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Ah, a very complex subject.

I will only speak from the Catholic perspective since that is what I know and try to address some of what has already been said based on this (hopefully I am presenting it correctly).

Taking of life period is a sin. The stain of sin, even if forgiven (then you are not damned) must be purged from our souls prior to entering the glory of heaven (that is what purgatory is for). You cannot enter heaven if you are not in a state of grace and once on the other side you understand this and wouldn't want to. For all the sufferings of purgatory, no soul would want to enter heaven without being pure enough for the glory of God.

Someone who takes their own life is probably not intentionally sinning, they are sick and are subject therefore to the mercy of God. Purgatory is a tool of the mercy of God. A soul in purgatory is considered a future saint as all souls in heaven are saints. However, once in purgatory, they have very little power to affect their state, though all good they have done during their lives does impact this state.

Meanwhile, those of us here on earth do have a lot of power to help the souls in purgatory fulfill their purification to enter heaven. All masses said, participated in, all prayers for their souls, many sacramentals, devotions, etc. offerred for them, help them along to their ultimate goal - heaven.

This by the way was one of the most important and missed messages of Fatima. I have seen a lot of things here & on the net attributed to the Fatima apparitions, most of which are misguided if not totally off base. Here is the most important message of Fatima.

- Many souls are lost because no one will pray for them -

See, the message the Blessed Mother was conveying at Fatima is this. We, here on earth have great powers to save souls through prayer, saving them from becoming damned and helping them to get into heaven if they are passed, not damned, but need to be cleansed for the perfection of heaven. Not only do we have this power, but we are obligated to do so and every prayer we offer for them is one less we need if we end in the same state. In fact, there are many stories of souls freed from purgatory by people here on earth who watch over & assist those in this life, becasue they are so grateful (and because once they are in heaven they are saints and therefore can.)

This is a very complex subject taught and understood just a few generations ago to Catholics that is largely unknown or misunderstood today. My point is, today, even most Catholics don't know this.

I hope I explained this well enough to see how this applies to suicide, or any other sin that one may die with on their soul.

You did say you are getting a lot of conflicting answers. Please understand, there is no way anyone can assure you they know the ultimate answer and put the question to rest for all eternity. Mankind is not capable of this kind of certainty. Only prayer, God and faith can ultimately tell you what the truth is in a situation like this.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 10:20 PM
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I am a christian. To go to heaven and be with God for all eternity and see all of His creation you must accept Christ as Savior. To reject Christ is to sentence yourself to eternal everlasting seperation from God, which is hell.

Once truly saved, always saved. Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world, meaning the Holy Spirit in a christian is greater than satan who seeks to destroy as many of mankind as he can.

Leading a good life has nothing to do with going to heaven. Accepting the completed work of Christ on the cross is the basis for salvation alone. Christians do good works after they are saved. The works aren't done to be saved, but because we are saved. Now unsaved people do good works too, but they don't get you to heaven. Remember a saved person was once unsaved also, so my good works before my salvation were like dirty rags in the eyes of God. Meaning good works aren't the way to salvation.

If an unsaved person committs suicide, they are seperated from God in hell.(some people see a difference between hell and hades. Hades is a temporary place where the unsaved are now, and hell is the final place after the White Throne Judgement.) It's that simple.

I don't know if it's possible for a true christian to committ suicide since Christ is greater than satan and suicide would come from satan.

This is the Biblical truth.

I am curious if you are asking about someone you know who did this.



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by shidge.
Well the stipulations are this:

The person has accepted Jesus beforehand.
The person asks for forgiveness for all their previous sins shortly before killing themselves.

I am thiiiis close to calling a local church/going in or something and asking lol


I have no direct answer for this, as no man has the answer you seek. But I will share my own understanding.

Those who are "saved" agree to live their life following the teachings of Jesus. Simply, this is a life of humility. Accept God, Love God, and Live your life in God.

Judgement is reserved for God alone. Matthew Chapter 7 begins Judge not, that ye be not judged. This not only applies to judging your fellow man, but as well as judging yourself.

There is a story I heard about church leaders who gave to the humblest man in the church a pin to wear. The following week the man wore the pin, and the leaders took it away.

A follower of the teachings of Jesus should not say "I have done God's will, so I will go to heaven." For it would not be his place to make such a judgement.

If one were to believe that one could commit suicide and still go to heaven, they may commit suicide thinking "I will leave this horrible world and be in Heaven." They have done something which is not their place to do. They judged themselves worthy of Salvation.

I cannot say if one who commits suicide will go to heaven, but I can say that God knows the hearts of all men. He alone will decide if that heart is worthy of Salvation. He understands the events that lead to the suicide, and He is a compassionate God.

That being said, there is always strength to be found in God. When things look the worst, He is there with his arms held open. His arms are not open because He is letting you go, they are open so you may embrace Him and Him you.

.



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Leading a good life has nothing to do with going to heaven. Accepting the completed work of Christ on the cross is the basis for salvation alone. Christians do good works after they are saved. The works aren't done to be saved, but because we are saved. Now unsaved people do good works too, but they don't get you to heaven. Remember a saved person was once unsaved also, so my good works before my salvation were like dirty rags in the eyes of God. Meaning good works aren't the way to salvation.

If an unsaved person committs suicide, they are seperated from God in hell.(some people see a difference between hell and hades. Hades is a temporary place where the unsaved are now, and hell is the final place after the White Throne Judgement.) It's that simple.

I don't know if it's possible for a true christian to committ suicide since Christ is greater than satan and suicide would come from satan.

This is the Biblical truth.



This is your opinion/interpretation of the Biblical Truth.

"If an unsaved person committs suicide, they are seperated from God in hell."

Okay, but does a saved person committing suicide not? In my belief, unless you truly reject God, you are not condemmed to hell. I don't think a person committing suicide has the where with all to make that decision. Upon facing God after death, they must finalize it by truly rejecting Him to be damned, otherwise they may atone for their sins in purgatory, a place possibly as nasty as hell, but not a sentence for eternity.

"Remember a saved person was once unsaved also, so my good works before my salvation were like dirty rags in the eyes of God. "


Okay, what happened to whatever you do to the least of your brothers, that you do onto me? That statement did not have the caveat of your definition of saved. No good works are "dirty rags" in the eyes of God.

"Leading a good life has nothing to do with going to heaven. Accepting the completed work of Christ on the cross is the basis for salvation alone. "

Leading a good life leads you closer to God - period. Your interpretation says rejecting God leads you to hell, not and inaccurate statement, then "Accepting the completed work of Christ on the cross is the basis for salvation alone. " Is there no in between? What about the millions who have niether rejected or - accepted God by your definition - maybe for as simple a reason that they were never exposed to your belief of what is needed to be saved. Do you think the God of infinite mercy leaves no chance for these people? Any belief system that says they have the only answer to achieving the glory of God and spending all eternity with Him in the end does not understand/accept the infinite mysteries and mercy of God, or the fact that that Christ went through what he did to open the doors to salvation for all, and any of us can asssit in the salvation of those souls by acts that unite us with Christ and his suffering. Any soul not immediately condemned to hell therefore will ultimately be in heaven, because as long as you aren't in hell you will eventually end in heaven, once reparations have been made. So saying that leading a good life has nothing to do with heaven is erroneous, as you are not condemned to hell if you led a good live, you just may not pass immediately to heaven.

Obviously my views cannot be verified as truth any more than yours, but taken in the context of a merciful God, they make a lot more sense to me. By your definition, no single life prior to the life of Christ could be in Heaven. So why would God create thousands of years of souls for nothing?

I do not think any of us, can make a definative statement as to whether or not suicides are absolutely in hell. We do not know, understand, or should assume we know all the mysteries of God's plan.



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 10:50 PM
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I am having a hard time following your response to mine. Not because of anything you did when writing. So here is my reply and hope it makes sense. I don't know if you want the references in the Bible where I get my answers from. I can surely tell you but I have done that before and people say they don't want the references they just want my views. My views do come from Bible reading and studying and church attendance, etc.

I think you asked me if a saved person committing suicide goes to heaven. My answer is I don't know if a saved person could committ suicide. I don't know if you have heard of Charles Stanley, a nationally known pastor from Atlanta. I watched him address this onetime and he said that it is possible that a saved person could committ suicide, but because they have accepted Christ they would go to heaven.

The dirty rags thing comes from Isaiah, and it simply means good works don't earn salvation. If someone who is unsaved gives say $100 to samaritan's purse to help feed the hungry. The $100 would buy food to feed people. But what I mean is God doesn't have a ledger with 2 columns. One column good works, one column bad works. Then when you die, God adds up the columns and finds out you did 1,567 good things and 1,378 bad things. And so your good works total is larger than your bad so you enter heaven. I was seperated from God by my sin, one sins kills your relationship with God. That's what Jesus did. He took the punishment for my sin so I wouldn't have to. My sins are now gone. My acceptance and faith in Him alone is why I'm going to heaven.

There is no in between. Adam and Eve had a choice, listen to God or disobey Him. When they disobeyed what happened was their spirit died. Then every child born to them and so on, was infected with a dead spirit. In a sense we are born away from God. A llittle baby can't sin, but he is infected with it and it will show up in Him. An example, we automatically know how to lie. We don't have to sit a 2 year old down and say,OK today Daddy's going to teach you how to lie. " We instinctively know how to do it.
So we are born away from God. When you accept Christ you come back to God and relearn how to live.(the way God intended). Purgatory is found nowhere mentioned in the Bible.

I think you talked about people who have never heard of Christ, and how that would be unfair to them. They can look at creation and know there is a God. God has never made a mistake and I believe everyone has a chance to be saved, probably more than 1 chance.


I would like to ask you a question. This isn't about you I just need someone to ask. If I wanted someone to explain long division to me so I could understand it, I would ask a teacher. Now I would want the teacher to tell me the right way and not lie to me. So that I would be doing it right and not wrong. I would want that teacher to tell me the truth.

I have given answers to questions before on ats. My answers are from the Bible. People will get so mad at me and say something to the affect of, "how can you say that, you don't know the truth. We are all searching for the truth."

Is it because they assume this is my truth. Cause it's not it's God's truth. What seems so odd to me is they say we are all searching for truth.(so that means there is such a thing). But yet when someone finds it they are mad at them. This truth from the Bible isn't something I'm hoarding all to myself. Anybody, anywhere can have what I have with God. It's like their pride is hurt because someone is trying to tell them about it. A teacher taught me how to do long division the right way but I didn't get mad at her. I'm thankful she wanted to teach me. Don't know if my question made sense, but I will talk to you later. Bye



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I would like to ask you a question. This isn't about you I just need someone to ask. If I wanted someone to explain long division to me so I could understand it, I would ask a teacher. Now I would want the teacher to tell me the right way and not lie to me. So that I would be doing it right and not wrong. I would want that teacher to tell me the truth.

I have given answers to questions before on ats. My answers are from the Bible. People will get so mad at me and say something to the affect of, "how can you say that, you don't know the truth. We are all searching for the truth."

Is it because they assume this is my truth. Cause it's not it's God's truth. What seems so odd to me is they say we are all searching for truth.(so that means there is such a thing). But yet when someone finds it they are mad at them. This truth from the Bible isn't something I'm hoarding all to myself. Anybody, anywhere can have what I have with God. It's like their pride is hurt because someone is trying to tell them about it. A teacher taught me how to do long division the right way but I didn't get mad at her. I'm thankful she wanted to teach me. Don't know if my question made sense, but I will talk to you later. Bye


I know you didn't ask me, but you said you needed someone to ask.

In order for one to understand something complicated, one must first understand the basics.

Before you learn long division, you learn to divide. Before you learn to divide, you learn to multiply. Before you learn to multiply, you learn to add. Before you learn to add, you learn to count.

Without learning the basics, one cannot understand.

I learned my multiplication tables up to 10 times 10 before I was 5. But I did not understand how to multiply. I was mearly spitting out what I taught. I could not prove what I taught was true or not.

So it is the same with the Bible.

Without understanding the basics, one is mearly spitting out what one was taught, without being able to prove if it is the truth. This is also known as Blind Faith.

Indeed I have heard it asked:

Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

This (Luke 6:39) is the beginning of a parable that teaches an aspect of humility. One of the basics of the bible.

.

[Edited on 16-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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I'm not quite sure where you are coming from yet. The basics of the christian faith is man is seperated from God by his sin. Jesus Christ came into the world and paid the punishment for that sin. Now men and women individually must accept Christ as their personal savior for their sin to be forgiven. When someone's sin is taken away they are restored to a relationship with God.

Christ and what he has done is the foundation, a christian is building upon that foundation.

Could you tell me what basics you are referring to? I would like to discuss it more.



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 04:46 PM
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When building a world, and organizing its people, it is best to REMOVE their burdens, rather than crush them. It is more graceful to privde healing to your people, than to harm or destroy their bodies.

What do righteous people have to do with sinners? What do sinners have to do with righteous people? God has given the world and its joys and blessings to the righteous. What do the evil people get? Who cares? Enforce the rights and lands of the righteous, let their houses be established. Let the houses of the wicked be destroyed, let them fall inward, let their seeds be devoured up and carried away.


Who is judging you sins? Is it God or man? Does God voice his displeasure, or is it the envy and jealousy of women that is given to you as judgment?

Who has defined your sins for you? Do you think that these bodies are filthy and foul? Do the impulses of your nerves upset God? What upsets you while you are in heaven? Is God anywhere else but inheaven? Would not God be a good and joyous being? Why then, do you pretend to judge one another, since you are so distant from any knowledge of God?

It is best to know what is true, and to practise it. Sinfulness that comes by the intention of deception is the kind that mars the soul. It causes the countenenace to darken, and the form of the face to change into the simlutude of the condemned.

Suicide is not a sin. The body will die by many things. Death is not a sin. What matters is the development of the spirit.

Ark



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 05:34 PM
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I found a website that anwsered the question pretty well (I define well as: Saying what I want to hear, lol)
www.tenth.org...


Makes sense



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I'm not quite sure where you are coming from yet. The basics of the christian faith is man is seperated from God by his sin. Jesus Christ came into the world and paid the punishment for that sin. Now men and women individually must accept Christ as their personal savior for their sin to be forgiven. When someone's sin is taken away they are restored to a relationship with God.


I fear these are not the basics.

"What is sin?" is a question that would lead you closer to the basics.
The answer "An act that is not the will of God" would be closer to the basics.

A follow up question of "What is the will of God?" would lead you closer still.

The answer, "the will of God is what God wants us to do, and is best summerized in Mathew 22:36-40" is one of the basics of which I speak. Indeed it is the most basic basic.

Without understanding this basic, the rest is just blind faith.

Now one could say "I knew this, this is easy."
I say this is the most difficult of things to understand. Indeed the answers to the question "How do I do these two things?" will fill volumes. And they have when you consider the majority of the teachings in the Bible explain this very question. A basic explaination of this question is "through humility". For without humility one can not love with all ones heart, soul, and mind.

Indeed it is through these basics that one can learn that it is not "When someone's sin is taken away they are restored to a relationship with God" but rather "When they restore their relationship with God, their sins are taken away."



Christ and what he has done is the foundation, a christian is building upon that foundation.


What Jesus did is not the foundation, what Jesus taught is the foundation.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Luke 6:46-49


Jesus taught the answer to "How do I do these two things?"


Could you tell me what basics you are referring to? I would like to discuss it more.


If you would like to know more, ask in the thread I started asking "Why must one accept Jesus as Savior to go to heaven?" for these two things are tied together. While this thread is asking another question.



[Edited on 16-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]





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