IF the worlds Wealth was divided FAIRly

originally posted by: undo
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

i understand what you're saying but what actually happens is completely different. you're an idealist, and most of us have the same desire to see a fair, equitable and happy world. but reality is, it's never anything like the picture elitists paint in hopes that they can rule over a huge base of impoverished slaves. here, let me clarify it in terms you can understand:

socialism is like serfdom. you have a few very rich people, and then everyone else, who share in a sort of equally distributed misery, in which criminals wander thru and further victimize them, like wolves in the barnyard. this is the reality of most places on the planet. and it doesn't work. the powers that be, hope they can sell you on the idea that socialism is different from serfdom, but it's not. it's the same thing, just a new word was created to hide what it actually is.

How do you know what happens? If you only have lived in capitalism? You don't know what would happen if land and wealth was distributed equally. The only thing we know for sure is what did indeed happened with capitalism, a 1% controlling everything and 3+ billion poor. Capitalism is a proven failure. China and Russia were not communist, that was just american propaganda BS to promote neoliberalism, Russia and CHina may had been called communist, in paper, but in the facts they were a tyranny or oligarchy where a small group of people of always and forever controlled everything (hello Bush, Obama and Clinton families). TPTB hope you keep happily working long hours for them in exchange of crumbles compared to what they make, so they can keep their privileges.

originally posted by: exile1981

Originally posted by TheGhostViking
[EXACTLY the ONLY people who wouldn't be happy with that are the rich ass holes who are greedy pigs.
id take a lower wage or whatever if it meant NOONE went hungry .

I'd be happy if the people who can't afford to feed themselves stopped having kids they can't afford to feed and the demanding others take care of there kids for them. If you want to eat, work. simple

Thats stupid. So because they are poor they cannot have access to a family right? And if you are rich you can have all the kids you want? Suuuuure. So if those poor cannot pay for food they shouldn't eat right? LOOOOL.

No. We all have desires, we all deserve access, we all deserve food, family, joy and happiness. What would be needed is a restriction of maximum 2 kids per woman in their lifetime, max. This would control an dgive certianty to population growth and give anyone access to family and equally.

originally posted by: undo

Originally posted by TheGhostViking
reply to post by undo

 

How would you make the system fairer ? I ask because im sure your not pro georgia guidestones right ?
id rather hear other ideas than that lol .

develop space, colonize other planets/moons or make liveable space stations. there's no reason to trap us all on this planet, where we fight and starve to death over available resources. allow alternative energy sources that not only solves the energy crisis, but is cheap, renewable and eco friendly. encourage EVERYONE to pursue jobs geared to their talents and abilities, without limiting them based on income, race, religion, gender or prior economic status. (notice i said, encourage, not demand!)

if you ask me, the majority of the problems we currently struggle with are not the results of greed, but the results of ideologies, clashing.

There is no reason to go to space and look for more land and wealth. Which would be coopted by the rich anyway! LOOOOL.

Mother earth can provide to all of us, yes, to all those 7.3 billion people, no need to go deep space, if wealth was equally distributed....

If there was no wealth in this earth then the rich would not have as much as they do.

Besides, waiting for the realization of actually colonizing space easily and cheaply and massively, which could take at least another century, is not an option for the 3+billion poor. That is stupid.

We could not colonize space as fast as we could because most knowledge, access, science and progress is kept behind paywalls, for the benefit of the rich only.

originally posted by: undo
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

YOU unite the races, personally. each person does that.
any ideology that teaches the opposite, is missing the mark,
from what i can tell (i mean, just observing what transpires around
the world)

personally....lol, thats even more stupid...again thinking on me, me, me terms....

originally posted by: undo
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

i understand what you're saying but what actually happens is completely different. you're an idealist, and most of us have the same desire to see a fair, equitable and happy world. but reality is, it's never anything like the picture elitists paint in hopes that they can rule over a huge base of impoverished slaves. here, let me clarify it in terms you can understand:

socialism is like serfdom. you have a few very rich people, and then everyone else, who share in a sort of equally distributed misery, in which criminals wander thru and further victimize them, like wolves in the barnyard. this is the reality of most places on the planet. and it doesn't work. the powers that be, hope they can sell you on the idea that socialism is different from serfdom, but it's not. it's the same thing, just a new word was created to hide what it actually is.

No. Not true. Social-welfare, community oriented states such as the nordic countries live pretty well. The problem is not the existence of rich middle and poor. The problem is the distance between them. There would be no problem with the rich owning 3, the middle 2 and the poor 1 of everything. Now how it is, there are 3+billion really poor and 1% owning 50% of all wealth. That is the problem and that is the product of capitalist/neoliberal system. those are facts, not your theories or beliefs.

originally posted by: Golf66


I am certainly no economist but I bet what gives "wealth" its value is - scarcity. If you were to "level the wealth" absolutely the price of things would just inflate relative to the demand for them making all the "wealth" basically - worthless.

Then the fights would start over control of the resources that seemed to be in demand be they land, gold or human capital; and invariably the ones who were the most ruthless and cunning would end up controlling the others. It is simply human nature to be competitive and controlling.

Sorry, embrace it be good at it - no other strategy has paid off for humans or their societies since we have been around.

Sucks to be dumb, slow, small or pathetic in the animal kingdom or to be born in a land where food does not grow; then again that is what evolution is all about - "survival of the fittest".

No. That is very stupid. Scarcity does not give value to things. Mosquito poop is very scarce and nobody gives a crap about it. What gives value to stuff is its usefulness, making life easier, its ability to simplify life, to give bigger yields (of any production or of more free time), life allowance and continuation (such as food, water, clean air). Purpose, service, application, problem-solving, time-saving, that is what gives value to things, not scarcity. The only thing that is scarce is TIME (said Jacques Attali) therefore everyone's time on this earth is what should be value more. The other scarcities are man made. There have lived billions of people in this planet before you thorughout history which now are dead, Earth had no problem giving to all of them. Earth's problems started with the rise of the big corporation and industrialization akak the rise of the rich and the wealth gap.

Sucks to be small in the animal kindgom, tell that to a black widow that can kill you with one bite. Tell that to a big elephant that cannot find himself in the heat of the african savana, puddles are too small.

Sucks to be dumb, there is no such thing as dumb, there is just people with different abilities, some are just not adequate for greed, savage capitalism, materialism, competition, etc, some would like to collaborate. You are the dumb one.

Feel so big huh? You are small, nothing, just one out of the 7.2 billion and nothing compared to whole earth. You could easily die tomorrow by accident, disease, animal attack of any kind, natural disaster etc, and you could do nothing about it and nobody would give a damn about it apart from your family if any.

" no other strategy has paid off for humans or their societies since we have been around. ".... thats beacuse there has been none you fool. What do you think is the continuation of Monarchies from the mid las century? It is called Democracy.

You are really dumb.

originally posted by: undo
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

we were donating to alot of charities before hubby retired. he was out of work for a year before he could find another job, and in that time, all our bills skyrocketed with additional fees and interest rates. the charities we'd been donating to, called for more donations, and we couldn't help them because we weren't making enough to pay our own bills. long story short, ya first have to make sure you have the money (remember our discussion about south africa?) before you help others with it. if you give your stuff to someone else, when they need your help again, you'll both be broke.

If you truly want to give then donate but don't exempt taxes.

originally posted by: TheGhostViking

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

that's why i said, develop it for everyone to take advantage of (if they are personally interested or capable physically. i know that i'm not well enough to go to space, unless it's via some ET high tech thingy (in which case, i'd be asking if they could fix my physical problems, while wer'e out there, flying around lol)

we should have have hoverboards now and no diseases liviing til were 170 in cities that float !
but no were too busy seeing if swans like sudoku .

No. We were too busy accepting Patents, Copyright, Intellectual Property, and we were too busy chasing the crumbles I mean bling presented to us by our masters.

originally posted by: undo

:
it's ideologies, clashing. it's like a mexican stand off.

mexican standoff...are you stupid or what? that is a stereotype idiocy....in that case it is more like an american standoff...aka police killing innocent people, mainly non whites...

originally posted by: marinesniper0351
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

These are the continued voyages of the starship enterprise, its ongoing mission....yadayadayada...if everyone had the same amount of money you would still have thugs taking from others, others blowing their equal portion on things they due not need and the world would grind to a halt....just my opinion...

where is the incentive to be creative and invent if we all were equal, the world would suffer and those that worked the jobs most of us dont want to do would not do them and we would be one big disaster as a world.

We ARE one big disaster of a world. I mean 1% controlling 50% of everything while 3+billion are poor? That is not a disaster to you? War everywhere, rage everywhere, hate towards your peers, police killing innocent people (hello USA), etc etc etc.

The actual system is a proven fail, the system proposed is not proven to be a fail, what you say would happen is just your theory, you are just scared.

originally posted by: slane69
I learned a long time ago life is not fair, you take what you are given and make the best with it.

Interesting question though, problem is equality is not a stable state, numerous and expensive redistribution schemes would crash the whole system not to mention the lack of incentive to produce. Another poster said it first but worth repeating, been tried, the pure communist experiment failed.

Except that what is given to many is nothing, so it is very hard to make something out of nothing. Other words for your thinking is conformism. "Yeah i was given not that much (arguably) but i made soemthing out of it and i don't car if 3+ billion are poor "....that seems correct thinking to you?

What we don't understand is that the more poor and needy there are, the more inequality there is, the more it will come to bite you in the ass sooner or later in any way or form, such as a poor bastard robbing you and maybe killing you for a few dollars, and ignorant fukk driving under the influence and killing you, as stupid greedy authority passign a reform that affects your purchasing power, and idiot company owner that wants more and raises prices of food, your employer who in exchange of his own pay rise will make sure you never get a pay rise again, etc etc etc etc.

originally posted by: TheGhostViking
reply to post by marinesniper0351

 

"where is the incentive to be creative and invent if we all were equal, the world would suffer"

I value a humans right to NOT die of starvation over creativity , the world IS suffering because we are not equal !

That is stupid. We would only be equal in the access to resources, not in the way of thinking and in our abilities. Many people from the same tribe come up with different instruments, different melodies to the song to the gods, many dances, some are not even playing or dancing, some are lightning the fire, some are cooking, some are watching, some are making other stuff. What you say is stupid.

Lets put it the other way around. Imagine all those geniuses out there throughout history and all the great ideas they had that never made it to light because they were more concerned with finding food, surviving the night, their illness or such. Imagine all that could have been but wasn't.

People can focus on greater things, complex/technical problems, can dedicate more energy and more thought to solving great social problems and community problems when they have certainty, when all their biological, safety and interpersonal needs have been satisfied and are certain for the future.

originally posted by: enigma91
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

"We could all live a prosperous life"

Depends on how you define prosperous. Because without a doubt there would be people who would buy things until their funds are completely gone and then they'll cry and beg for more.

And people with financial sense/skills will quickly begin to amass more wealth.

I don't think it's possible to "spread the wealth" evenly with the current monetary system, or the current humanity for that matter.

They would not amass more wealth because it would not be allowed, it would be the cool thing to do to not amass more, aka a change in teh way of thinking...opposite to what is now, where greed and having more is good, well looked at, accepted, desired and even encouraged.

All people should be limited on the amount of family they can have, the amount of wealth they can store, the amount of time they use to work, etc etc etc....hell it wouldn't even be allowed to store wealth...things that you are not using now must go to someone else....it would be a complete change of paradigm.....

You are still thinking with capitalist mind, where there has to be a central bank, where there has to be debt, and interest...where there has to be savings, where there has to be inflation, etc.

originally posted by: TheGhostViking
Where are all the positive people ? humans invented robots , heat seeking missiles , wireless communication , THE AIRPLANE !
yes we can "invent" a way to feed everyone , just that it means people being less selfish , which im gathering is going to be the real task !

Exactly, the only thing that is not letting all those geniuses and great ideas out there flourish and revolutionize the world for the better is hunger, war, man-made scarcity, the greed of the few, interest and debt base economies, monopolies, copyright and patent, etc. basically inequality is what is holding us back.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
It could mean freedom for a few decades, but we would have to get rid of the scarcity economic structure. All human needs wouldn't have a dollar value, they would be free. Everyone would work their talents to contribute to the growth and health of Earth and every living thing on her. A Global Christ conscience would hold it all together quite nicely. We could PARTY!!! SING and DANCE!!!

Agree. I think the main important thing is getting rid of inequality. I don't mean perfect equality and we don't need it for practical terms. But today's such huge inequalities is what is holding us back and making us work more, work harder, have less, fight with our peers more and more over things and stuff, etc. This system is making us compete, we need a system that makes us cooperate and collaborate. If we get to that level we will all be working far less hours per week, like only 2 days per week, and we will have so much more free time, so much less stress and pressure, no hate towrds each other, and we would be highly concentrated on the arts, the spirituality, collaboration, tribes and collectives, nature, contemplating life and leisure really.

So is oxygen - its being used up by people who continue to procreate without the means to support their offspring. If a company or person trades something of value for the food it is theirs to do with as they see fit; to eat it, give it away or to watch it slowly rot on the shelves. It is not for you, me or anyone to make them give it for free to anyone else.

You are very ignorant. Most oxygen and clean air is not being consumed by people, it is being destroyed by industrial processes and greedy companies. Billions of people lived on this planet before you and me, and earth was fine and provided to all of them, it is just with the coming of industrialization and fossil fuels that the earth is not being able to keep up and it is deteriorating.

So if people cannot afford kids, in this world mainly of poor, they shoulnd't have them right? They should not have access to such joy. Then if they cannot afford food they shouldn't eat right? See your ideas are stupid, laughable and easily discarded.
All people deserve the joy of family, food, health, happiness, etc, just for the single fact of being born. If they cannot afford it is because a few have too much.

If you lack something of value to trade be it in the form of money, goods or services in exchange for food and lack the ability to procure it legally for yourself - I guess you are just going to be hungry. Life is not fair.

Life is fair. We all have the ability to take from the land, we all get born in the same planet and we all die. Life is fair. What is not fair is the man made economic and scarcity processes implemented by a few for their own benefit. Please stop being an idiot and really think for yourself.

Most people have nothing to offer "of value" since they are born because their are born poor under this system. Please stop the bullshhit. You surely were born with diamonds around you right? No, they were given to you by your daady. Come one dude, stop saying stupid crap.

Guess it sucks to not have money or a skill to earn any to get food. The land belongs to the land owner who can do with it anything he/she desires. I have cattle I could raise grain instead I guess and give it away but then what would I exchange for goods and services? That would be suicide.

Of course you can only guess, you never had to fight for money. It was given to you.
A skill to earn food. Again, all your education was paid for you by daddy.
You don't have special skills, special intelligence, special virtue or special will that no one else can develop too. You talk like if you were special. From another planet with skills that no one else can acquire if given the same resources and access as you were given. you just talk crap. You are nothing special, you are just one more, that is why you say so simple and ridiculous stuff, you are not even that educated according to your statements.

Sucks to be born in Mali then I guess - I bet if they were willing to pay more for the grain than Budweiser the farmers would gladly send it there. It’s a concept called capitalism and it runs under the theory of competition.

Sucks to be born in the USA where you have more chances of being killed by gun than in most other countries.

Exactly, capitalism runs under competition, and it is a proven failed system where a 1% control 50% of everything (don't get too high on yourself, you are not one of them, not even close and never will be, as said, you are just a common guy, one more, notoriously stupid and ignorant, you just happened to be born there but that is about it, you are just another work slave for your elite too, but that is about it) while there are 3+ billion poor. That is a failed system. We don't need a system based on competition, we need a system based on collaboration.

Then they should not accept the "charity" and grow their own food then. Entirely their choice as I see it.

Again, thinking like if everyone had the same privileges and facilities as you had. Most people are born poor, and grow poor, uneducated, marginalized, ignorant and uncertain of their future. YOU ARE IGNORANT.
Why don't they grow food? Why don't you change the world? Because you can't.

Sure, donate 2 so you can get exempted 4 in taxes. If you want to truly help then donate without exempting taxes and pay your full taxes. Anything else is bull#.

Should, should...you talk like if you were the truth and you are just ignorant and idiotic. They should not accept charity....well, the world should not be like it is, with so many poor an hungry, int he first place! LOOOL. Don't talk about "shoulds" guy.

I think by management you mean confiscation of private property for "managed" redistribution to the poor - that's is a failed concept since people have no incentive to produce if they cannot enjoy the fruits of their labor. Communism as it is commonly known is a failed experiment.

What do you think people all over the world do everyday even though they get paid pennies? WORK! You fool. YOU don't get the fruits of your labor, you just get a salary for your time you ignorant. You (arguably) produce more than what you are paid, aka profit goes to owner you just receive crumbles for your time, not profit per unit produced.

It is not confiscation. It is redistributuon of the resources of Earth who some conveniently have amassed under some idiotic system, again a proven failed system which has generated a 1% elite and 3+ billion poor.

originally posted by: slane69

Originally posted by TheGhostViking
reply to post by marinesniper0351

 

"where is the incentive to be creative and invent if we all were equal, the world would suffer"

I value a humans right to NOT die of starvation over creativity , the world IS suffering because we are not equal !

I have to respectfully disagree,... the world is suffering because of greed and selfishness. If we all could learn that your suffering is my suffering and your joy is my joy then the world truly be a better place,.. equality seems like it would be the answer but it is not. We are all born with different abilities and talents, different levels of intelligence, it is the responsibility of those who are greater endowed to share and help with those who are lesser endowed. None of us know when we may fall from a height and need assistance ourselves.

Equality IS the answer. Equality in access to resources. But we would all still be different and unique in terms of abilities and skills. People can focus in complex, technical, world changing, revolutionizing, worldwide problems when their basic needs, safety and interrelation needs are satisfied and secured for the future (certainty).

There is no such thing as lesser endowed or greater endowded. That is bullshhit. We all have skills and abilities, strong spots and weak spots. Some are considered less endowed but only under this system geared towards competition, some are best suited towards collaboration. Nobody is great at everything, and nobody is bad at everything. Just some people have more privileges and access and some have more of the right type of "intelligence" for this rigged system.

originally posted by: Golf66


I guess one has a choice to fight for what they want literally or metaphorically; however, remember it is not advised to bring a knife to a gunfight or to bet on the one legged man in the ass kicking contest.

Don't want to be hungry in the third world may I suggest either becoming a local warlord or at least working for one – ironically, I would wager that once "the poor and starving" have a taste of success; I very much doubt they would be willing to share either. It is not in human nature.

It is in human nature to share, if not ask your parents. If not ask your friends. Don't you share anything with your friends? If not then you have no friends. People shared land, work and profit long before industrialization was here. People shared music, sang together, etc long before monarchies existed. Tribes shared everything, lived in the same land.

Your doubts are just that, your doubts (and fears).

originally posted by: enigma91
reply to post by TheGhostViking

 

"We could all live a prosperous life"

Depends on how you define prosperous. Because without a doubt there would be people who would buy things until their funds are completely gone and then they'll cry and beg for more.

And people with financial sense/skills will quickly begin to amass more wealth.

I don't think it's possible to "spread the wealth" evenly with the current monetary system, or the current humanity for that matter.

It is possible to spread the wealth more evenly, maybe not perfectly, but more evenly. Hey after all, if all that wealth was possible to spread so unevenly as it is today then the opposite should be true too. Remember, things did not just occur, man made systems are in place where a few have gained more, cultural values are in place man made of course, that promote certain values, certain aesthetics that in the deeper end and long run serve more a few who have gained more.

Some principles should have to be changed for example:
- Total freedom of speech: yes total freedom of speech, lets stop punishing ourselves over vagina images and etc.
- Eliminating the figure of profit: no profit, no rent, no dividend, no shares, no stocks bull#....only pay in exchange of time, regardless of activity. Of course some activities as sports, arts, etc will not be paid, it will be practiced but not paid. Example: make mp3s of music? No. there is no way to prove you spent this or that amount of time. Live shows? Yes. there is proof how much time are you spending.
- Eliminating the figure of interest and speculation, goes hand to hand with the above.
- Eliminating the figure of unlimited wealth, example, just an example to express the point: no woman is allowed to have more than 2 children, no person is allowed to have more than 1 house, no person is allowed to store wealth ie minerals, etc.
- Eliminate copyright, patent, etc and all monopolies on ideas, inventions and creations. All information developed, invented and discovered by one, should be freely copied, shared and exploited by others, for the benefit of humanity and not just a few.
- etc

The land belongs to the land owner who can do with it anything he/she desires. I have cattle I could raise grain instead I guess and give it away but then what would I exchange for goods and services? That would be suicide.

No. The land belongs to those who work it. He cannot do anything he desires. That is the thinking that has brought great pollution to land, air and water. You cannot do everything that you desire with "your" land. You have to work it to produce for all AND IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY, not abuse it.

And also you cannot buy some food and let it rot if that is your wish. That is just irresponsible, stupid and not good for business even in capitalist/economic/business terms. Letting some food rot equals wasting the time of many people who made it possible and it is also wasting the finite available resources of Earth, putting an unnecessary strain on the planet. It is stupid from all points of view.

So NO. You are NOT free to do whatever you want with land, air and water, you are not free to let food waste, you are not free to let plants, animals, humans or others EARTH'S RESOURCES get wasted.