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Question for materialists

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posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
You keep saying one is conscious but you still can't even come up with a way in which one could even prove that to be true instead of being an illusion of consciousness. I still have no reason to believe you are conscious.


I already said, many times, that you cannot prove any consciousness exists beyond your own.

So I can't prove it to you.

But the idea that my own consciousness is an illusion is a fundamental contradiction.

Illusion vs reality is all consciousness.



How would you prove to yourself you are conscious? What method would you apply to such a task? How would you verify the results showing you are conscious?




posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


The question itself is a fundamental contradiction.

You are consciousness.

In order to prove, apply, or verify you start with consciousness.

Action, thought, emotion, feelings, illusion, realty...

Consciousness supersedes all other concepts.



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
You keep saying one is conscious but you still can't even come up with a way in which one could even prove that to be true instead of being an illusion of consciousness. I still have no reason to believe you are conscious.


I already said, many times, that you cannot prove any consciousness exists beyond your own.

So I can't prove it to you.

But the idea that my own consciousness is an illusion is a fundamental contradiction.

Illusion vs reality is all consciousness.



How would you prove to yourself you are conscious? What method would you apply to such a task? How would you verify the results showing you are conscious?


I would think that knowing you are conscious would be an axiom, not something you could logically deduce.



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex
 


The question itself is a fundamental contradiction.

You are consciousness.

In order to prove, apply, or verify you start with consciousness.

Action, thought, emotion, feelings, illusion, realty...

Consciousness supersedes all other concepts.


My question still stands unanswered. How would you prove this to just yourself? What method would you apply to test for it? How would you verify the results to be sure they are valid and indicative of you being a conscious entity?

You're not a fluffy bunny because you believe you are a fluffy bunny. You need to prove your a fluffy bunny.
edit on 26-4-2011 by sirnex because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex
 


The question itself is a fundamental contradiction.

You are consciousness.

In order to prove, apply, or verify you start with consciousness.

Action, thought, emotion, feelings, illusion, realty...

Consciousness supersedes all other concepts.


My question still stands unanswered. How would you prove this to just yourself? What method would you apply to test for it? How would you verify the results to be sure they are valid and indicative of you being a conscious entity?


Your question has been answered repeatedly.

Proving, applying, verifying are all concepts within consciousness.

As soon as you have a "yourself" you have already proved to yourself that you are conscious.



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex
 


The question itself is a fundamental contradiction.

You are consciousness.

In order to prove, apply, or verify you start with consciousness.

Action, thought, emotion, feelings, illusion, realty...

Consciousness supersedes all other concepts.


My question still stands unanswered. How would you prove this to just yourself? What method would you apply to test for it? How would you verify the results to be sure they are valid and indicative of you being a conscious entity?


Your question has been answered repeatedly.

Proving, applying, verifying are all concepts within consciousness.

As soon as you have a "yourself" you have already proved to yourself that you are conscious.




A rock is it's own entity, but does not exhibit conscious like traits.

A tree is a living entity, but also does not exhibit conscious like traits.

An advanced AI program sufficiently advanced enough would exhibit conscious like traits, but would be non living.

A human brain in all it's complexity exhibits conscious like traits as defined by mankind. Yet there is no indication that these traits exist without a functioning brain and physical body.

Point is, having your own identity and separateness from other things is not sufficient evidence that you are a pure conscious entity that can exist without a brain and body. If you can't show that to be a possibility, or that there is a difference between your consciousness and a programmed consciousness, then I doubt you truly are conscious at all.



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


So are you still trying to say that there is a scientific explanation for consciousness, or have you realized there still isn't by now?



posted on Apr, 26 2011 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
If you can't show that to be a possibility, or that there is a difference between your consciousness and a programmed consciousness, then I doubt you truly are conscious at all.


You actually doubt that I feel, think, and experience emotions because it can't be proven scientifically?

You doubt I have consciousness?



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
If you can't show that to be a possibility, or that there is a difference between your consciousness and a programmed consciousness, then I doubt you truly are conscious at all.


You actually doubt that I feel, think, and experience emotions because it can't be proven scientifically?

You doubt I have consciousness?


I don't doubt that you feel, think or experience emotions. I just doubt your conscious. I think this entire thread is rather silly. Why argue that consciousness is not a product of the human brain and then provide no evidence to support that case, provide no method to prove that case other than because I said so. To sit there and mind numbingly exclaim that because science doesn't have every single answer to every single question at this point in time that that point alone lends any plausibility to metaphysical claims that provide no other evidence beyond god of the gaps form of arguments. Narcissistic delusion-ism.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
I don't doubt that you feel, think or experience emotions. I just doubt your conscious.




...yah I guess you're right, this thread is silly...



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
I don't doubt that you feel, think or experience emotions. I just doubt your conscious.




...yah I guess you're right, this thread is silly...


Why the puzzled face? If there's a sufficiently advanced AI capable of thinking, feeling and experiences emotions through it's programming, would it be conscious? If this is your marker for consciousness then it's contradictory if you don't think an advanced AI is conscious for exhibiting the same traits. No need to put the puzzle face up, just use your noodle a little more.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
If there's a sufficiently advanced AI capable of thinking, feeling and experiences emotions through it's programming, would it be conscious? If this is your marker for consciousness then it's contradictory if you don't think an advanced AI is conscious for exhibiting the same traits.


Exhibiting traits and experiencing thought, feelings, and emotions are not the same thing...

Personally I don't think it's possible for AI to feel, but the point is that I would never know.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
If there's a sufficiently advanced AI capable of thinking, feeling and experiences emotions through it's programming, would it be conscious? If this is your marker for consciousness then it's contradictory if you don't think an advanced AI is conscious for exhibiting the same traits.


Exhibiting traits and experiencing thought, feelings, and emotions are not the same thing...

Personally I don't think it's possible for AI to feel, but the point is that I would never know.


I think the point is that everyone claiming science is wrong doesn't know themselves and do nothing more than attack lack of current understanding and then arbitrarily exclaim that due to this lack of current understanding that somehow their magical fairytale universe is right without providing any evidence for it's case.

I don't care if you believe you are, if you claim you are, I want you to prove you are and if you can't provide even a method for how you could prove to yourself you are, then you probably aren't.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


All your arguments are arguments from ignorance Sirnex. I asked you to show where there is any scientific explanation for consciousness. There is none. That is what the OP is about. So you can't say "consciousness is created by the human brain" or any other nonsense and pretend you are being scientific.

Scientists can't even figure out what interactions, if any, cause the experience of consciousness in the first place. So you can't even begin to justify your arguments with science.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
I don't care if you believe you are, if you claim you are, I want you to prove you are and if you can't provide even a method for how you could prove to yourself you are, then you probably aren't.


Every instant I experience reality is proof of my consciousness, but as I said many times, I can never prove to you or anyone else that I am conscious.


Originally posted by sirnex
I think the point is that everyone claiming science is wrong doesn't know themselves and do nothing more than attack lack of current understanding and then arbitrarily exclaim that due to this lack of current understanding that somehow their magical fairytale universe is right without providing any evidence for it's case.


Science is always changing...you need to let go of the past and keep up...



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by Jezus
 



Every instant I experience reality is proof of my consciousness, but as I said many times, I can never prove to you or anyone else that I am conscious.


Are you conscious due the the complexity of the human brain or are you conscious due to some other factor that no one here can even bother to provide any evidence for other than mind numbingly exclaiming because I know I am?


Science is always changing...you need to let go of the past and keep up...


The funny thing is, science doesn't say anything close to what's being put forward here. Science doesn't get it's information from the channeling of Ra.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
I think the point is that everyone claiming science is wrong doesn't know themselves and do nothing more than attack lack of current understanding and then arbitrarily exclaim that due to this lack of current understanding that somehow their magical fairytale universe is right without providing any evidence for it's case.


Man I missed this gem.


Who is claiming "science is wrong"? The whole point is that there is no science to back what you keep posting!


You really think everything you think or say is automatically proven by science, just because you believe it, don't you?



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


I know big guy/gal... Science doesn't have all the answers so they must be inherently wrong about it and that means somehow without explanation or evidence that the opposite is true.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
I know big guy/gal... Science doesn't have all the answers so they must be inherently wrong about it


Once again... this makes absolutely no sense.

How can science be "wrong" about a subject for which it has no explanation in the first place?

You are confusing your personal beliefs with real science.



posted on Apr, 27 2011 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
Are you conscious due the the complexity of the human brain or are you conscious due to some other factor that no one here can even bother to provide any evidence for other than mind numbingly exclaiming because I know I am?


A complexity doesn't create consciousness...


Originally posted by sirnex
The funny thing is, science doesn't say anything close to what's being put forward here. Science doesn't get it's information from the channeling of Ra.


Science deals with physical reality.

You have you use your mind to understand...your mind.



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