It appears George W Bush was correct about freedom in the middle east

reply to post by HoldTheBeans


I would also like to point out that the CIA operates to it's own accord.

By the way, that was me that posted the CIA possibility

I'm not sure why not many will even entertain the possibility exists that the CIA started a coup in Egypt.

reply to post by HoldTheBeans


NW Africa is *far* more closely tied to France than the United States. Fighting Communism has always been second place to fighting Islamism.

Tunisia is one of the best educated, most secular and most EU-integrated Arab states. Given the power of modern communications, the effects of good secular education, and widespread experience of living in Europe, it is inevitable that people would demand more. The upsurge in Tunisa is about to create a revolution in all the dictator one party ruled countries. The promise of Arab natinalism, which was suppressed in favor of Islamist fundamentalism under Anglo-Saxon West, is about to be realised

The Army (and the West) can afford to stand aside and let a revolution happen because its clear that while it is not militantly secular, it is not militantly Islamic either.

Egypt on the other hand has a population that is far poorer, far less educated, and far more religious. The military can not stand aside - any popular revolution will bring the Muslim Brotherhood straight to power. It is the same thing with Jordan. Syria wouldn't be that different - the Sunni Arab majority there are getting more conservative every day. Egyptians are tired of Mubarak. Population is reduced to a servent class that serve tourists. No industry nothing. Best car Egyptian can afford is Pegeot 206 (second hand from Europe). Elite like to speak French and GO TO Paris and Lebanon for weekend. If you talk to guy on street you see the hatred they have for Mubarak clan.

In any case the new popular Arab nationalism has come not from above by army officers or writers, but from Al-Jazeera and the channels that imitated them. It has been the first place where Arabs from different backgrounds and regions can interact in a way that is even half-way free.

Of course there is an element of Al-Jazeera that is obsessed with Arab honour, and defeating the Israelis and Americans, but I don't think it is dominant element any more. Also their initially supportive coverage of Salafi jihadi 'resistance' gave way to absolutely nauseating scenes mass murder of Arab Muslims in Iraq, etc - all of which has made less sectarian, less Islamist nationalism look much more appealing again.

What is clear to a lot of Arabs is that whether a state is anti-American or pro-American, most Arab governments share the same pathologies of nepotistic , corrupt and stagnant secret police states. It all looks *very* poor when compared to the rise of economic growth and people power in Turkey, which has remained part of NATO even while pursuing an independent foreign policy, democratic but stable, secular in constitution but ruled by elected Islamists, etc. Turkey makes it look like you can have your cake and eat it too.

OBAMA's Dilemma

Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
If the US felt this way about Egypt why keep feeding them military equipment?

To have it ready when the dust settles.

Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
I remember people calling Bush a fool for thinking that freedom could spread in the middle east.

I'm still saying it .. anyone who says freedom can spread in the middle east at this time in history .. is a fool. There are too many factions over there who want power. And most of them aren't up to any good. The Muslim Brotherhood wants Sharia law for the whole planet, and they have a foothold in the region.

What is happening in Egypt is not freedom spreading. There are people in the street calling for it .. for sure. But what they are going to get handed with The Muslim Brotherhood is far, far, from freedom. There is a push .. a rush to put anyone in as long as it's not Mubarek. That's dangerous.

Going from the frying pan into the fire isn't 'spreading freedom'.

reply to post by obixman


Wasn't former UN nuclear committee chief El-Baradei a popular opponent of Mubarak's rule? If one thinks about it, this is a great opportunity for him to push for democratic elections, but i'm also afraid the power vacuum might give place to Jihadi parties aka Algeria/Iran. If Egypt falls into the clutches of Islamic brotherhood,all the hardwork done by Israel to ensure her security will be reset to a big zero. The Saudis must be watching things unfold in their neighborhood with bated breath.

What's interesting is if this'll lead to another bloody summer in Iran? US has its job cut out. They cannot allow friendly regimes to fall and allow jihadis take over, but this domino could push Iran other way around that could be desirable to US. Boy! It must be tough being Obama!

Originally posted by hp1229

If Egypt falls into the clutches of Islamic brotherhood,all the hardwork done by Israel to ensure her security will be reset to a big zero.

Well, wouldn't it dissipate population from Palestine, weakening Palestinian defenses in the process?

I am by no means saying population=defensive might, but the less people a nation has in an area , the less are willing to fight for that area.

I kind of see it from a different perspective.

Maybe, instead of Bush being "right", perhaps the people want to handle their own business before the Americans decide to turn Cairo into the latest Baghdad.

Realistically though, I think people are just starting to get fed up. They're tired of being afraid of this, afraid of that. Once the fear is gone, it's open season on those who imposed it. I don't think this is a result of any action by any government, just the continuity of societal evolution.

Originally posted by drkylefletcher

Originally posted by hp1229

If Egypt falls into the clutches of Islamic brotherhood,all the hardwork done by Israel to ensure her security will be reset to a big zero.

Well, wouldn't it dissipate population from Palestine, weakening Palestinian defenses in the process?

I am by no means saying population=defensive might, but the less people a nation has in an area , the less are willing to fight for that area.

Well do you think Palestine is the only contributor to the members of Islamic Brotherhood?
Moreoever dissipation will cause it to spread out in another region which borders with Israel

Originally posted by hp1229

Well do you think Palestine is the only contributor to the members of Islamic Brotherhood?

Moreoever dissipation will cause it to spread out in another region which borders with Israel

edit on 3-2-2011 by hp1229 because: Content

Egypt isn't the "golden land" though; Palestine is.

Originally posted by drkylefletcher

Originally posted by hp1229

Well do you think Palestine is the only contributor to the members of Islamic Brotherhood?

Moreoever dissipation will cause it to spread out in another region which borders with Israel

edit on 3-2-2011 by hp1229 because: Content

Egypt isn't the "golden land" though; Palestine is.

edit on 3-2-2011 by drkylefletcher because: changed a comma to a semi-colon

Well. Not according to Global Post article. See the link below. Egypt is one of the largest arab nation population wise. It also controls the SUEZ canal which is of strategic and economic progress for the rest of the Arab Countries.

GOLDEN LAND

In order to apply the title of this thread, the first thing should be, "What precipitated this "revolt"?" What started it? What was the first thing that got this ball rolling?

Was it for freedom?
Was it becuase of a new law?
Did someone get treated unjustly?
Did someone get a parking ticket?
Did a butterfly flap its wings in Mongolia and that, through a series of events, cause this?

Forgive my ignorance. But what started this?

Find THAT answer, and you'll have the reason for this movement.

In my humble opinion, of course.

Originally posted by hp1229

Well. Not according to Global Post article. See the link below. Egypt is one of the largest arab nation population wise. It also controls the SUEZ canal which is of strategic and economic progress for the rest of the Arab Countries.

GOLDEN LAND

I mean in regards to Israel's strategy.

Originally posted by beezzer
In order to apply the title of this thread, the first thing should be, "What precipitated this "revolt"?" What started it? What was the first thing that got this ball rolling?

Was it for freedom?
Was it becuase of a new law?
Did someone get treated unjustly?
Did someone get a parking ticket?
Did a butterfly flap its wings in Mongolia and that, through a series of events, cause this?

Forgive my ignorance. But what started this?

Find THAT answer, and you'll have the reason for this movement.

In my humble opinion, of course.

The fact is that the Egyptian opposition is mobilizing a large number of people irrespective of their ideological differences. Different groups have different agendas on what the future political system should be, from the idea of an Islamist state envisaged by the Muslim Brotherhood all the way to a secular, liberal state envisaged by the Al Ghad party. All the opponents of Mubarak have formed a loose coalition called the NAC (National Association of Change), setup by ElBaradei.

Here's a description of the major-opposition factions that is protesting against Mubarak's rule:
LINK

reply to post by hp1229


Truly, though, with all the nations in unrest over there now most of it is ripe for the taking by anyone promising change

Originally posted by drkylefletcher
reply to post by HoldTheBeans

 

I would also like to point out that the CIA operates to it's own accord.

By the way, that was me that posted the CIA possibility

I'm not sure why not many will even entertain the possibility exists that the CIA started a coup in Egypt.

edit on 3-2-2011 by drkylefletcher because: (no reason given)

I'm not saying the CIA didn't but that it would be against the US interest for them to start it. Yes there are rougue factions in the CIA but they are still under the US jurisdiction especially when the sheet hits the fan.

Originally posted by drkylefletcher
reply to post by hp1229

 

Truly, though, with all the nations in unrest over there now most of it is ripe for the taking by anyone promising change

edit on 3-2-2011 by drkylefletcher because: (no reason given)

True but do you think we (USA) will be one of them? What about China or Russia? That will be interesting to see and will drive the political scene for the next few decades in the region.

Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
Yes there are rougue factions in the CIA but they are still under the US jurisdiction especially when the sheet hits the fan.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

Edit: Specifically the part about the jurisdiction.

Originally posted by hp1229

True but do you think we (USA) will be one of them?

What about China or Russia?

That will be interesting to see and will drive the political scene for the next few decades in the region.

I've come to the conclusion that most nations are puppet states, with most of the middle east being some of the exception.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
I remember people calling Bush a fool for thinking that freedom could spread in the middle east.

I'm still saying it .. anyone who says freedom can spread in the middle east at this time in history .. is a fool. There are too many factions over there who want power. And most of them aren't up to any good. The Muslim Brotherhood wants Sharia law for the whole planet, and they have a foothold in the region.

What is happening in Egypt is not freedom spreading. There are people in the street calling for it .. for sure. But what they are going to get handed with The Muslim Brotherhood is far, far, from freedom. There is a push .. a rush to put anyone in as long as it's not Mubarek. That's dangerous.

Going from the frying pan into the fire isn't 'spreading freedom'.

Lot of fools running around lately.

reply to post by HoldTheBeans


So that they can get a war going for israel. Have israel surrounded by muslims who wont talk to the zionists. Then they can sell lots of weapons and bombs. Spread a little freedom and democracy arround the ME. Lots of money to be made. Might even get the chance to loot oil or any thing else they want, like they did in iraq.