The Egyptian Protesters are Wrong

reply to post by nenothtu

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

I just wanted to point out that "Anarchists" are not only punks in black ski-masks throwing molotov cocktails. They can also be wealthy and influential globocrats. But of course, yes, it is we who enable them with our pseudo-meritocratic hierarchical philosophy.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by DevilJin
You have a valid point but he does actually have to "step down" and officially resign. The "people" can't just rally together, take over without dealing with the old regime, hence making it officially over. Otherwise, it'd be a kind of occupation, if you will, of the governmental seat. You're right but technically wrong since we do live in a "civilized" society, not a tribe or the wild.

Actually you have it backwards.

We are not "civilized". A Civilized person does not need leadership. They can lead themselves just fine. Thus a "civilized" man is a "free" man.

Primitive people's are incapable of rational or logical thought. They are incapable of making good decisions. Therefore primitive people's need leaders to make choices for them.

Today Earth's population is entirely primitive in this respect.

If we simply led ourselves, all governments would lose power over night. Instantly.

But it requires all of us to shrug off the old outdated ideas of power and control that are actually just illusions.

Once we shrug it off, no government is necessary. We will become self-governing.

What you want is organization. You do not need leaders with power to form organization.

I have organized with friends, and we did not need a leader to achieve that. We did not have conflicts or lose control of ourselves, we just got together and agreed on some mutual aspirations.

What we humans really are seeking is organization and the agreement of mutual aspirations.
Don't need leaders for that.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, and I don't know how it's turned out so far, but on this I 100% AGREE WITH YOU!!

reply to post by eMachine


Your assertion that what we have is a de-facto double standard, where "we" are expected to do as "they" say, and "they" do as they please, is also true. Not since Col. Colt's "Peacemaker" have we had such an equalizer as this notion that is being batted around here. When you stop to think about it, "they" have precisely the same rights as any of "us", no less - but no MORE, either.

The problem seems to me to be that "they" claim that they have some sort of inherent rights to lord it over the rest, and "we" are just their peons. As long as we go along with that program, it's more or less "true" that is the case. The INSTANT that people realize the inherent illusion of that system, and assert their own rights not to be tampered with, and reclaim their own responsibility for their own actions, allowing none to usurp that, "we" effectively take back our power, and repossess our rights.

Then the playing field is equalized, and "they" are on the same level field as "we" are. Their "power" vaporizes, vanishes into the thin air from whence it came. "They" no longer have precedence nor hold sway over us. "They" will then cling to money, and try to use that to reclaim their illusory power, but that can be countered, too. "They" just can't conceive of how that can be done, being wrapped up in the illusory power of finance as they are.

Fiat currency is every bit as illusory as this presumed "power" of those who think they are in control. In both cases, when the "peons" that the whole system depends upon spurn those things, they suddenly have no more relevance. Without the support of the peonage, those systems collapse into their constituent smoke and mirrors. What good is a fistfull of dollars or stock certificates to a man when everyone else just refuses to accept them as having any "value" for exchange? As I'm pretty fond of saying "you can't eat gold". "They" can try, but I believe they'll find the fiber content lacking.

See, what they have buffaloed most into believing is that "we" depend on the system, when in fact it's entirely the other way around: the system depends on US. The sooner people realize that, the sooner they can take back control of themselves, and that is the day "they" dread, and try to forestall.

As it stands now, that epiphany is occurring on a daily basis at the individual level, and some few of us peons have made that logical leap. When society at large catches up with that, it's gonna get interesting.

Originally posted by thektotheg
reply to post by thektotheg

 

All the OP did was rehash ideas that have been around for as long as there's been government/religion/society.

Here, I'll summarize the entire post and the solution: read and think.

Yes it's a realization passed down through the ages. But it requires a long time to really begin to see it clearly.

I did not mean to 'spin' it as my own idea, no one can own an idea because we can all share it, but I will claim my particular articulation of it is mine, and I typed it the exact way I was thinking it at the time.

And yes, your summery is quite concise and accurate.

I am actually happy that this topic is getting some discussion though. It's a nice break from the rampant fantasy world we have envisioned for ourselves.

ATS philosophy 101.

reply to post by muzzleflash


The idea HAS been around for ages, and far pre-dates Paine. It goes all the way back to the times before government "was", and is most likely the very notion that governments were instituted to suppress. It goes back to a time when there was an inherent, inborn, "natural" understanding of it. That may be one of the reasons that "natural law" is a notion attached to it.

The notion of individual rights and responsibilities IS nature, and is everywhere to be found in nature. Likewise, it is enforced by nature - break one of those laws without the "protection" of government, and see just how long it takes for it to enforce itself. That's why I insist that along with responsibility comes consequences. The consequences are the self-enforcement arm of that law.

As an extreme example, gravity is one of the laws of nature. Defy that law, and the consequences of that defiance will cause nature to self-correct, and squash the offender like a bug. "Rights" are those things we are born with, which occur inherent to the condition of being human. "We hold these Truths to be self-evident...": each possesses certain "inalienable rights". The founding documents don't GRANT those rights, they pre-exist, and come along with birth. The founding documents merely affirm what already IS, and guarantee them against molestation - as far as we are willing to press that guarantee. In other words, "rights" are natural, a part of natural law...

... every bit as natural as the law of gravity, and just as immutable.

A number of people are unable to grasp the concept as it has been expounded upon before, and there is no harm at all in trying to couch it in terms that folks may more easily grasp in the current day. Therefore, each of us with a vision of the concept are responsible to articulate it as best we can, in hopes of allowing others to understand as well.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Actually your getting the U.S. mixed up with Egypt and YOUR WRONG! Here in the U.S. the President doesn't have the power to do anything and he knows even less. Our President is probably not even allowed in Area 51 and he probably doesn't even know about having Cosmic Security Clearance. In Egypt they don't have the GOP so already he has a lot more Freedom then say our President. Don't confuse their politics with ours because its a totally different animal we would be talking about.

Originally posted by muzzleflashEvery person's actions are their own personal choice. So if a police officer or soldier shot someone, that's not Mubaraks fault, that's the person pulling the trigger's fault. Each person is responsible for their own actions 100%.

Correct. This is why non-violence is important. Any innocent could get hurt, maimed or die as a result of these riots, which really does not solve a 30-year problem. It makes me wonder why the people of Egypt took so long to figure that out and why they decide that they had enough of Mubarak's regime.

Originally posted by iLoGiCViZiOnS
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Actually your getting the U.S. mixed up with Egypt and YOUR WRONG! Here in the U.S. the President doesn't have the power to do anything and he knows even less. Our President is probably not even allowed in Area 51 and he probably doesn't even know about having Cosmic Security Clearance. In Egypt they don't have the GOP so already he has a lot more Freedom then say our President. Don't confuse their politics with ours because its a totally different animal we would be talking about.

Do YOU know about "Cosmic Security Clearance"? If so, explain it to me. Hint: your apparent linkage of it with Area 51 leads me to believe that you DON'T know what it is.

I do.

Not sure why mention of the GOP is even made in a discussion about Egypt... ???

I don't think he's been getting Egypt mixed up with the US - there's RIOTS going on there, and there aren't HERE, so the distinction is pretty easy.

I think you may have missed the mark entirely here....

I say who really cares... The whole middle east should collapse in my opinion.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Sorry OP, but that's some BS you wrote. There is a difference between philosophical constructs and how the world actually works. Your presentation is half baked.

"How the world actually works" is a DIRECT result of having bought into the illusion. It would "actually work" quite differently if more people were to recognize the illusion for what it is.

Have you got anything constructive to add as your viewpoint, or only flinging allegations of "half-baked BS", which is really no solution at all, nor is there anything in there at all to refute the premise of the OP.

edit on 2011/2/2 by nenothtu because: of typos.

Do you get out a lot? Just sayin' ...

*Stands up clapping* I couldn't have put it better OP .. This of course is not only true for Egypt but for the nations of the entire world. Revolt is only a symptom of a much bigger problem and yes, the problem we think we're revolting against or trying to change is merely the smokescreen put there precisely to hoodwink us into thinking that we've achieved something if the masses can "force" a president to step down.

In chess, you have one king but many pawns and just as we're willing to perhaps forfeit a pawn because we have others to take its place, so too do those who are really in control have other pawns who will take the place of the ousted one.

Different face ... same BS ... and around it goes while the masses pat themselves on the shoulder and falsely believe that they have brought about a change.

"They think the "President" still has power. He doesn't."

well,thats what they are fighting for,so if your rght. I guess they were right and won.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
He still has power.

The power to command Egypt's air force, secret police, regular police, presidential guard, and maybe a little influence over the military too.

Trust me, he still has power.

and he did prove that today er yesterday, i have got to give them credit for holding a peaceful protest as long as they did but it was just a matter of time when the sticks and clubs, and with bullets flying came into play.

Originally posted by AllIsOne

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Sorry OP, but that's some BS you wrote. There is a difference between philosophical constructs and how the world actually works. Your presentation is half baked.

"How the world actually works" is a DIRECT result of having bought into the illusion. It would "actually work" quite differently if more people were to recognize the illusion for what it is.

Have you got anything constructive to add as your viewpoint, or only flinging allegations of "half-baked BS", which is really no solution at all, nor is there anything in there at all to refute the premise of the OP.

edit on 2011/2/2 by nenothtu because: of typos.

Do you get out a lot? Just sayin' ...

As a matter of fact, I do. What's that got to do with the topic at hand? Are you able to actually hit a topic? This is your second attempt now, and it's another clean miss.

reply to post by nenothtu


The North Atlantic Treaty Organization otherwise known as NATO has its headquarters in Brussels, Belgium. The Cosmic Security Clearance is the highest level in the world you could attain.

So YES you would need this type of clearance to get full access to some of the worlds "TOP SECRET" documents. There are a lot of people that work in Area 51 but due to their limited clearance levels their access/knowledge is also extremely limited.

Some of the high ranking officials in NATO are connected to one of the Oldest Masonic Lodges in Belgium, and wouldn't you know SO are some of the members of the GOP. Sarah Palin excluded of course! hehehe

The GOP Stands for the Grand Old Party otherwise known as the Republican Party. Their country isn't run by Republicans so THAT'S WHY I mentioned it. I know who is running this country. DO YOU?

I'd really love to break all this down to you but I don't have time. You will just have to do your own research as I did.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Firstly, with all due respect OP, I think this thread should be moved to the philosophy forum as it is essentially philosophical ideals being expressed.

Although we may all have our ideals and versions of how we perceive the world to be or would like it to be, sometimes we need to take a step back from abstract ideas and take a look at what is happening. What is happening is that nations are ruled by those in power who make laws and decide how to run it. It's very fanciful to suggest that we all have the power in our own hands. Sure we do to some extent, but let's be realistic. If we all act as we please and, for example, break the law, we'd be punished for it by those in power. How much power would we then have?

The Egyptians are protesting against their leader and the circumstances that they have to live with. Nobody is going to know what that must be like unless they are there themselves. It's easy to sit somewhere else and point the finger about how people should or should not act.

How do you suggest the Egyptians deal with what they have to live with but to protest it and fight for their freedom?

Originally posted by iLoGiCViZiOnS
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization otherwise known as NATO has its headquarters in Brussels, Belgium. The Cosmic Security Clearance is the highest level in the world you could attain.

So YES you would need this type of clearance to get full access to some of the worlds "TOP SECRET" documents. There are a lot of people that work in Area 51 but due to their limited clearance levels their access/knowledge is also extremely limited.

Negative. "COSMIC", also "CTS" for "COSMIC TOP SECRET", is a NATO classification pertaining only to the sharing of info between NATO allies, and is the functional equivalent of plain old TOP SECRET, specific to that usage. It is NOT the "highest level in the world you can attain", nor does it have anything to do with Area 51 or aliens/UFOs. People see the word "COSMIC" and let their imaginations run wild. Similarly, I had a guy once try to convince me that Operation Cyclone" was pertaining to a disaster relief mission. I knew better. There is a reason that random keywords are used, rather than descriptive words.

COSMIC clearance doesn't grant access to Area 51 documentation.

Edit to add: Here ya go, straight from the horse's mouth -

The terms COSMIC and NATO indicate that the material is the property of NATO.

Source: International Programs Security Handbook, Chapter 10, Paragraph A-2

Some of the high ranking officials in NATO are connected to one of the Oldest Masonic Lodges in Belgium, and wouldn't you know SO are some of the members of the GOP. Sarah Palin excluded of course! hehehe

And your point is? The old guy down the street here is a Mason, too. He doesn't have a thing in the world to do with Egyptian unrest, either.

The GOP Stands for the Grand Old Party otherwise known as the Republican Party. Their country isn't run by Republicans so THAT'S WHY I mentioned it. I know who is running this country. DO YOU?

Still failing to see what Republicans have to do with the topic at hand. The whole point of the thread is that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO thinks they're "running" this country, or any other, including Egypt. Did someone say Republicans are running it? I missed that post if they did.... and if they didn't, Republicans, Democrats, and little grey guys are ALL irrelevant.

I'd really love to break all this down to you but I don't have time. You will just have to do your own research as I did.

edit on 3-2-2011 by iLoGiCViZiOnS because: (no reason given)

Well then, when you get the time, come on back and "educate" me... although I'm pretty sure you've not got much you can teach me.

Much of this thread is utter nonsense.
The near 300 dead fighting for even a semblance of liberty in Egypt are very dead.
It is not just in somebodies mind.
They are dead.
The imprisonment of peoples right across the planet is not in their minds.
It is real and reinforced by actual brutality, torture and murder.
The government of Egypt under the very real power of Mubarak has been complicit in rendition and every vile act of repression of a people to the zionist and USA interest -which of course is the same.
Any American who thinks they are free - they are the folk in Dreamland. Any Brit who thinks the same.
The vile attacks on the pro democracy, real freedom fighters, in Egypt, the 1500 hurt and bleeding men and women on the Cairo streets is real.
Stupid comments such as some of these show how divorced from reality many of those who sit behind a keyboard writing twat about life and death, freedom and democracy, how divorced they are from the violence of the real world.
Wake your ideas up because the fantasy that exists is in the heads of those who sit making comments completely unaware of their own imprisonment, the net closing around them, the paper thin distance between you and the bleeding heroes holding Freedom Square.
We are all Egyptians now.
Anyone who cannot see that deserves their serfdom.
These braveEgyptian folk deserve better than the utter facile comments by many on this thread.
I would tell you to watch Aljazeera but the US authoriities deny you the right to see.
Oops sorry is that just in your mind!

Originally posted by nenothtu
The whole point of the thread is that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO thinks they're "running" this country, or any other, including Egypt. Did someone say Republicans are running it? I missed that post if they did.... and if they didn't, Republicans, Democrats, and little grey guys are ALL irrelevant.

Correct.

That is because we each run our own lives individually.

No matter who we "think" runs it, the truth of the matter is that we run it.

This is proven as an accepted fact by society because if you kill someone, and say "X" made me do it, they laugh and lock you up and throw away the key.

Since this applies to the gravest of actions, than it must apply to all other actions individual people can take as well.

reply to post by Emilymary


How can people be imprisoned or brutalized if the person doing it to them didn't believe in lies that fooled them into trespassing on others rights?

Answer that question. And then you will finally see why this thread exists.