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The Egyptian Protesters are Wrong

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posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

Violence is the problem, and is definitely not the solution.



I have too differ with you here somewhat. Violence and the threat of violence are a part of the problem. Those things are also a part of the solution.

In physics, there is a concept that any mass in motion will tend to STAY in motion until acted upon by an equal, but opposite, force to what has set it in motion to begin with. That same concept can apply to a great many things, outside the realm of physics.

Indiscriminate, "mob rule" force, is definitely not the answer. By an indiscriminate blanket application of force, you risk destroying the entire system, of which you are a part. It's a self-destruction of sorts. The pressure, unfocused, goes everywhere, to each of the system's parts. That includes the individual.

No, the counter-force must be focused and proportionally applied, in a controlled manner, so that it only affects the out of whack parts of the system, and then only to the extent necessary to effect repairs. You don't build a house by driving the nails with a block of C4 for each one. You use a hammer to drive them.

Force, properly focused and directed. It's a distasteful, but necessary, component of the solution.




posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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It's philosophical. In Egypt's case, its whoever is wielding the bigger stick that has the power. Currently, it's the people.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:56 PM
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Yeah, okay dude. Water is wet, too.
DUH!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Thier cost of living is no delusion, Their cost of gas and their government suppresion is no delusion . i can sorta see where youre comin from but they have finally woken up and have grown a huge set of cahunas to do this . If thats what it took to get out of their dilusion then more power to them!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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I'm late to this thread, as usual, but wanted to say this is quite an interesting mental gymnastic, and I do heartily agree.


However, if we refused to function within the constructs of our illusions, chaos would set in. I hate chaos.
I like order. There are always people who will spoil things for those of us who are peaceful, consequently we need enforcers. Sad but true.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


The problem with saying that everything is a mere illusion, as I personally do think most things to be, is that there still needs to be some sort of semblance of law and order amid the chaos. Otherwise why should people obey laws, take orders, live a "good" life, etc?

Some things are necessary in pressing the human mind upon reality so they can reasonably grasp the world around them. The governmental structure is one of those necessary "totems" (as they would be called in the movie Inception) that help to keep order. So I agree with the Egyptian president being forced to step down, and to step down nonetheless. That way the government still remains in place, civility still remains in place, laws still remain in place, etc, and a new president can come to power and abide by the laws of the region and the people.
edit on 2-2-2011 by arbitrarygeneraiist because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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Well said OP!

I've been wondering why the people are still protesting for him to "step-down".

I mean, if things start quieting down and the people start working again, would Mubarak even dare to come out in public or even use an ounce of his power?

If he did, it would surely be suicidal in the current Mubarak-hatred-atmosphere.

All these protests are doing is massaging his psychopathic ego into believing he still has power even though the army isn't listening to him and the police have fallen.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by DragonSpirit2
a lot of people are not getting it they are taking it waaaay too literally....


That is because people believe that these ideas exist in physical reality.

So of course many take it literally. We have been doing that for thousands of years.

Thank you for the excellent post.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:51 PM
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amazing video



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by RayTheWizardLiotta
Look at all the corporations, religions, banks, schools, media etc, all these things have some form of indoctrination that trick our minds to think a certain way. Once they get our minds with the marketing techniques, propoganda, and fear, they can easily control us in what direction is necessary to take advantage of us.


Exactly.

The entire system we live in is predicated upon our deep misunderstanding of reality.

The things I thought were real last week, are slowly disappearing before my eyes.
The most shocking part of it all, was that it was never there, I was hallucinating it.
We have all been hallucinating.

Maybe the propaganda isn't very good. It didn't work on a third of us posting on ATS very well.

Change the system? Maybe not. Maybe there is no such thing as a system.

Maybe all we need to change is our attitudes towards other humans?



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I believe your theory is 95% right, but there is a 5% error.

No one has real leader power 95% of the time without other people. Just like almost every religion ever, if everyone did the right thing rules would be void. I'm going to site an example that I think most people will agree with:

A 12 yr old boy and 11 3/4 yr old girl become "boyfriend and girlfriend" date and stay together. When they reach whatever age in their teens they start doing the DEW lol and later the boy turns 18 with his 17 3/4 girlfriend. One odd circumstance and that guy can go to jail. That law has no authority if every person who is supposed to enforce it says no (like the average cop would probablly give a big HELL NO to slaughtering 20 innocent infants just because congress passed a law)

This shows that lack of power as well as the crappy world in which dumb powers exist.

BUT, the 5% is really only viable for comic book mad scientists or someone in a very small place with a small poppulace.

Two times when one "leader" has real power:

1- Is really big and can personally whoop everyones ass under them. (doesnt need followers)
(obviously this doesnt work on a grand scale)

2- Personally has a nuke, death ray, or god knows what mass death weapon in his enclosed palace and is crazy enough to blow everyone to smitherines unless they do what he says. (think Lex Luther minus Superman)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by WalterRatlos

How can it be wrong to protest and to demand more freedom and a government change?


The government never existed. We just thought it did.

Protesting a non-existent entity is madness.

You don't demand freedom. You have to realize you already have it.
You have to realize it can never be taken away.

It's all in our ..



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:02 PM
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You are valid in thinking your opinion may matter, however, in the big picture you could no be more wrong. This is not an attack on you in any way shape or form, but the argument you propose is naive. Mubaraek has ruled, peacefully and successfully for 30 years, and the public is revolting only in hopes of more freedoms due to Tunisia's success. Of course every society has the right to protest their own government, and God bless the Egyptian people, but I lost all respect for this entire affair today, when it turned violent. I have been there, Egypt, many times, and know what a tolerant and peaceful society it is, and am disgusted it has come to this. God bless the Egyptian people.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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I want to add something that I believe will shatter your whole theory.

I want to put a little more detail into what you said here:


Originally posted by muzzleflash
Every person's actions are their own personal choice. So if a police officer or soldier shot someone, that's not Mubaraks fault, that's the person pulling the trigger's fault. Each person is responsible for their own actions 100%.


You say: "Each person is responsible for their own actons 100%".

That is ABSOLUTELY true I want to add, BUT since we are among other human beings; since we have a thing called responsibility we are not only responsible for our OWN actions. If this were true, it would mean that we are alone, we are one and our actions do not effect others and neither do the actions of others effect us.

The real truth is: We are responsible for our own actions 100% and we are responsible for the actions taken by others as we live among others and there is such a thing as cause & effect.

It really takes a higher mind to understand this.

You are responsible for yourself AND your sorroundings.

Your actions reflect on your sorroundings, so if the sorrounding is going bad, it is your responsibility to improve it (since you live in it, since it is your OWN as well), even if that means changes the decisions of others to improve it.

Therefore I say again: You are responsible for yourself AND your sorroundings.

-

So straight away here we see that since it is the Egyptians responsibility to handle the mess they are into (The mess being that they didn't stop the actions taken in their sorroundings before it was too late) then what they are doing is NOT wrong.

I don't believe your theory in that Murbarak doesn't have ANY power. I believe that if a sane man enters his place, changes can be made. The position of power as president is big. You DO have the power to change things as the president. If a sane man enters the area, things can change for the better even if he is pressured by overlords to do wrong!

If a sane man does good, then the only way the overlords will be able to do bad is by physical force.

If you cannot convince, then overpower until there is no other option for your opponent.

Anyways, I am going to far.
I wanted to post my opinion as I believe you are wrong.

Last thing! If you keep using this theory, it really does bring a, "No Hope" feeling to people.
If you were on the streets of Egypt, you definitely would be feeling like you were changing something.

I'm for the Egyptians, I really hope they get what they are protesting for. A better government, a better Egypt.

Thanks for your theory though and just to end off, I understand what you are trying to communicate although I have to disagree!

- Nico Collu



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by XLR8R
Then I would paraphase Johan Wolfgang Von Goethe "None are so enslaved than those who think that they are free."


Great analysis.

Goethe makes a perfect point, and it applies today more than ever.

Our enslavement comes directly from our minds.
Our misunderstanding of reality.

We enslaved ourselves. We have no one else to blame.
We enabled it by choosing to believe in things that do not exist.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by rexusdiablos
@OP: In theory you're correct but in practice, your notions of civilized, self-leading and responsible man are overtly unrealistic.


I think you are jumping the gun as much as I perhaps have.

How do we know it's unrealistic?

Aren't our theories about advanced alien civilizations like this?

What would an alien civilization look like? How would they treat each other?

What are their notions?

Does a truly advanced civilization believe in a Government?
I have my doubts about that.

The only reason we think it's unrealistic is because we have spent thousands of years banging our . into the wall, and understandably, we are a bit dizzy.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by martinkb
reply to post by muzzleflash
 


it's easy to label everything white or black.. With so much on the line, does having free will matter?


As easy as it is to label everything + or - ?
Positive or Negative?
0 or 1?
On or Off ?

What is the fundamental base of all things?

For example, we believe in Zero 0.
Zero doesn't exist though. Zero means "Nothing". It represents the absence.

But we still believe in it. We use it all the time. It works out pretty well.

There was an age before Zero 0. Man lived fine before ever making up such an idea.
Zero doesn't exist. But we believe it exists, we write down a symbol for it daily...
Without it, complex math would become exceptionally taxing if not impossible.

Watch the documentary "The Story of One". It's absolutely brilliant.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Sound.Voice.Productions
You are responsible for yourself AND your sorroundings.

This is absolutely correct.

We all have a share in responsibility for everything that goes on around us.

It makes me laugh (and want to cry) when people I know say they are 'responsible' because they work like a slave, pay their bills (for the most part), and buy the crap they think they need. I don't think they realize what exactly they are really responsible for. I don't think they realize that in 'responsibly' supporting themselves, they are inadvertently supporting everything that is askew about our global situation.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by Willbert


If you lived there and went home and later had some strange men kick in your door and then do the same to your .. I'm sure you might get some sense knocked into you about who sent those men. Then we can talk about fantasy and who has power to enforce the mob squad to terrorize the citizens of Egypt.


You have it all wrong friend.

Just because I point out that Government and Power are merely ideals, and not physical realities, you cannot "prove it" to me by beating me or killing me.

You would be merely proving you are a psychopathic murderer.

You can't beat people up to "prove" an ideal is a reality.
The only reality is individuals who are deluded who take it out on innocent people they disagree with.

I honestly refuse to give in to threats of violence.

How does the saying go?
Give me Liberty or Give me Death?

Yeah, beating me up won't prove a fantasy is real. It just proves we are lunatics.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

The only "change" they ever needed was a change within themselves.

You cannot EVER take the freedom away from a free man, you can only kill him. His freedom has to be willingly given up.



I am really liking your posts a lot nenothtu.

You totally get it. I can't help but star your posts.


Thank you for adding your straight talk to this conversation, I really appreciate it.




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