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The Egyptian Protesters are Wrong

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posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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@OP: In theory you're correct but in practice, your notions of civilized, self-leading and responsible man are overtly unrealistic. It's contingent on everyone doing the right thing. Man's individual susceptibility to corruption is too great for your supposition to be effectual.

I opine that what this world requires first is an altruistic rendition of the conglomerates we refer to as the 'New World Order'. The intelligent will need to steer the masses as an intermediary until we revolutionize society, education et al. but even then, when we have the autonomously civilized man you've described, I believe that you've misplaced far too much faith in man by conceiving the circumventing of non-individualistic leadership.

Even if it were achievable, we're talking about centuries or a millennium of generations to harness it. While it's good to have long-term objectives they should never be at the expense of the critical intermediary.




posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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You are correct in your thinking, however, those thoughts only apply to a democratic leader.

The power of non-democratic leaders differ from democratic leaders. A democratic leader derives his power through the consent of the governed, while a non-democratic leader derives his power from his control of the governed.

A democratic leader maintains power because the society believes in and abides by the rules placed into the constitution. A non-democratic leader is in fact in charge because no matter the consent of the people, he uses his control over the military and other tools of oppression and fear to maintain power.

Mubarak's inability to use the military to maintain power, due to the seperation of institutions set place in a democracy, is an example of how the rules set in place contribute to a peaceful process.

Your ideas about everyone cooperating without a leadership system are noble, however, history has shown that there are always bad apples in a group and this leads to tyrants and non-democratic type rulers who rule by force.

In a civilized society, I believe that we must abide by the rules that we have set out for ourselves, however we must also be aware of where these rules come from why they were set in place.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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Good post OP, there are many good points you bring up. I do agree in that power is an abstract concept to a certain extent. There are certainly people out there who could do better without a leader, but I think you discount human nature totally. People (not all but most) want to be better than others and that is why power exists. Human nature wants power. You cannot tell me if you were an elite working for the new world order, you would not be doing the same thing. If I was in a position like that I would do the same thing. As long as we see through our set of eyes, nothing will ever change.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Umm, maybe I should tell you that he has power over the military and police, and political institutions of Egypt. That is power. If he didn't have power, how could he have become President? Most definitely he has power...but not for long.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


it's easy to label everything white or black.. With so much on the line, does having free will matter?



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
The Egyptian protesters are wrong actually. Here allow me to explain exactly why.

Within a few days of the protests growing larger, the "people" overwhelmed the police, and the physical actual government dissolved quickly.

However, everyone is stuck in a fantasy. They think the "President" still has power. He doesn't. He never did actually, that's the trick we have been fooled by.

All the President can do, is sit in a bunker and use his telephone and TV cameras to blab with his mouth. He has no real power at all.

We are all brainwashed into thinking that these "positions of power" actually exist. But they do not exist, they are mere illusions.

The proof that power is an illusion, is that people think Mubarak has to "step down", this is totally untrue. He was clearly ousted by the revolt. However, since the People still "believe" him to be President, than they are fooled into thinking he has some type of power.

No one has to listen to him. He can say he is President all day but if no one listens, it loses any real meaning.

Did Mubarak really have any power in the first place? Only 1 power, the power over our minds.

As long as we consider these people to be "leaders" and give them power, they will "appear" to control us. This is all a 100% illusion. So the Egyptian people are clearly wrong about something.

They never had a "leader", they just thought they did for a long time.

Every person's actions are their own personal choice. So if a police officer or soldier shot someone, that's not Mubaraks fault, that's the person pulling the trigger's fault. Each person is responsible for their own actions 100%.

These leaders are distractions from the Truth of actual Real Freedom. There is no such thing as a leader, it is merely a mirage, an illusion we believe in religiously and refuse to reject.


There are no leaders, never have been. All there is in reality, are deluded peoples.

And we all fell for it.

A good example is the American Revolution. Although the illusion of "leaders" was extremely strong then as it is now, they "revoked" the power of the Crown without ousting the King. All they had to do was fight off the waves of brainwashed soldiers who believed in the King so much they would die for him.

All that exists is physical things. Leaders are abstract ideals. Power is an abstract ideal. They do not exist in actual reality.

So sadly, the Egyptians were wrong about this fundamental fact.

Just as we are all wrong about it.




If you lived there and went home and later had some strange men kick in your door and then do the same to your head. I'm sure you might get some sense knocked into you about who sent those men. Then we can talk about fantasy and who has power to enforce the mob squad to terrorize the citizens of Egypt.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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I just have this to say. I'm American. The Egyptian people have the balls to do what American people don't. And what sickens me the most, is that we Americans in general have such a high opinion of ourselves.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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Hi LightofLiberty,

Thank you for your reply. You've brought all of us back to reality. The guy does have power. Power exists because MOST people are unenlightened.


edit on 2-2-2011 by Sabier because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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So .3% of the population protest, which turns violent, then is co-opted by the Muslim Brotherhood, which will either lead to a slightly better leader or a much worse leader with anti-American sentiment to boot somehow shows more "balls" than what we've managed to do in this country? How about the recent Gallup poll with like 87% of Repubs wanting Repubs to integrate the Tea Party's beliefs, something like 72% of Independents, and somehow, like 52% of Dems. The Repubs in the House passed the HC repeal, a Fed judge declared it unconstitutional, Darrel Issa is using the oversight committee to look into TARP and such. I'd say we're doing pretty darn well, I understand the Illuminati are still very much in power doing what they want, but we've already won, we're just waiting for them to destroy themselves some more, so the transition can be as smooth as possible. But you know what would screw that completely up? That would be doing exactly what they're doing in Egypt. We may not be "ruled" by someone, but if we did that, they would "rule" us pretty darn well with Martial Law, the thing they've been working so hard on for so long. All of us in the conspiracy community and the "New Age" movement are the biggest reasons we've already beaten these monsters and most of us are from America, so I say we're doing far better than Egypt. Especially since those people are mostly idiots who'll just put another idiot in charge, there's no MLK, just dangerous fundamentalists.

So how about you go set an example for us lazy people, why don't you go do more than just tell us how we're not doing the right thing on an internet forum. I'd actually venture to say, instead of worrying about these monsters, we relax and focus on ourselves because absolutely everything is being taken care of, any disasters or tragedies are only allowed to happen for our own growth and there shouldn't be too many more of those. Also, we should be nothing like those protestors in Egypt, though the good people there can't much help that happening. Also, I do enjoy your cavalier attitude and your understanding of our self-sovereignty, but at this point in time, we just can not do what Egypt is doing, what we've already done has been perfect. Also, the Obama regime believe that another countries president should be ousted because .3% of the population protested and eventually became violent, saying that the leader must listen to his people, saying that they had legitimate grievances. With that logic, Obama should have stepped down before he was sworn in, so I'd say we're doing a much better job than a country who's been ruled by an American appointed dictator for 29 years after another for 14 years.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash

We are all brainwashed into thinking that these "positions of power" actually exist. But they do not exist, they are mere illusions.

The proof that power is an illusion, is that people think Mubarak has to "step down", this is totally untrue. He was clearly ousted by the revolt. However, since the People still "believe" him to be President, than they are fooled into thinking he has some type of power.



Muzzleflash,

Please stop making sense on ATS it's not allowed here.


I wonder why people feel that they are so powerless, and need someone to lead them or the illusion that someone is leading.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by cluckerspud
Wrong or right, they are tired and demand change.


The only "change" they ever needed was a change within themselves.

The only "power" that Mubarak, or any other "leader" for that matter has is the power that the "led" GIVE him. If they withhold that power,keep it within themselves, he has no real "power". One can only lead those who allow themselves to BE led. That's the whole notion behind governance by the consent of the governed.

What they are doing is what people who lack understanding do - they're "fighting the power", without acknowledging that the only power their is is their own. They are effectively fighting themselves.

Hence the reason that I say the only "change" they ever needed was within themselves.

You cannot EVER take the freedom away from a free man, you can only kill him. His freedom has to be willingly given up.

The consent of the governed.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by DevilJin
You have a valid point but he does actually have to "step down" and officially resign. The "people" can't just rally together, take over without dealing with the old regime, hence making it officially over. Otherwise, it'd be a kind of occupation, if you will, of the governmental seat. You're right but technically wrong since we do live in a "civilized" society, not a tribe or the wild.


No, he doesn't. He, AND his "power", can be made entirely irrelevant, as can his entire government. "Irrelevant" is the same as non-existent, when the "leadership" is universally ignored.

Then they are no longer "leaders".

So far, the military, his ONLY backup, has been supremely indifferent. As long as the people leave them alone, so that they stay that way, the people have the power, each man his own.

Mubarak, his cabinet, the bureaucracy, the whole governmental ball of twine, is then "irrelevant". They can step down, sit up, or scream and babble. What does it matter if no one cares?



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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You mention reality but your thread consists of none I can recognize.

The president of Egypt is a dictator. The people of the country are tired of it and ready for him to resign. Thankfully, he will not run again in the next election.

Interesting theory though but it's invalid.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 





Hey OP tell your thoughts to Obama's henchmen when they herd you off to a FEMA camp. I'm sure plenty of folks in Iraq maybe thought the same way before they were tortured and killed by Sadaam too. Maybe not.


Go back and think about that a little bit more.

Obama's "henchmen" aren't gonna put anybody in FEMA camps. I'm sick of hearing that nonsense. Before anything like that ever happened, Obama would be long gone out of the presidency and most of our military troops would have to be brainwashed against their fellow Americans......ain't gonna happen.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by SeventhSeal
 





You mention reality but your thread consists of none I can recognize. The president of Egypt is a dictator. The people of the country are tired of it and ready for him to resign. Thankfully, he will not run again in the next election. Interesting theory though but it's invalid.


Why can't you recognize any reality in it? You said that, but I didn't see you make a good argument for it except to say that the president is a dictator.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
Hey OP tell your thoughts to Obama's henchmen when they herd you off to a FEMA camp. I'm sure plenty of folks in Iraq maybe thought the same way before they were tortured and killed by Sadaam too. Maybe not.


No, they DIDN'T think the same way. If they had, or do in the future, there will be a LOT more dead henchmen laying around.

Sometimes, consent must be STRENUOUSLY denied.




edit on 2011/2/2 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by FalselyFlagged

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by FalselyFlagged
Well its Muzzleflash, Mr. Armchair Genius over there... How exactly do you have internet access when your reporting from your home in Egypt??

Oh wait. You don't know anything about Egypt, or their government. Feel free to keep guessing though.


This isn't about Egypt specifically.

This is about abstract ideals vs physical reality.



It's nice that you can skirt the criticism. But when you are abducted from your home and tortured at the police station for your political views, then you can tell me how much power Mubarak and his regime have. But no. You don't even live in the middle east and know nothing about their fight.


I know something about it, and he's absolutely right, as far as he goes.

They key there is to disallow he abduction to begin with.

See my posts above to get an idea of how that works.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


That's why the army moved in and supported the protesters. If the president doesn't stop using gangs and liars to cause problems, the army will go in, boot him out, and force an election.

Sometimes I wonder where the army in America went because they stopped doing that over a century ago.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Dang it, the OP beat me to it. I was gonna go in detail about the general idea of just forgetting the ideal of government, your took the words straight from my mouth. I just never knew how I should put it.

But yeah, I always been thinking if I was about to get a group to do so, but at America's state today that isn't happening until something drastic like in Egypt happens. Good thread though.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by rexusdiablos
 


Just wanted to say, just because you don't believe in government doesn't mean you believe in Anarchy completely. IMO this would work well as long as people look at their government as INDIVIDUALS and not a collective breathing monster. This is why the media is so important in these times, it makes people think their Government is God, regardless if its a possitive or negitive government thus helping thoughs who wish for control.

A Republic is fine, its just making sure people are informed and enlightened, but that is much easier said than done. Then again, its not impossible.



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