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The Egyptian Protesters are Wrong

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posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by gladtobehere

We're now getting reports from Egypt the police have joined in the protests and that the military has stated that they will not fire upon the people. This is what needs to happen in order for any type of revolution or restoration to be successful.


Unfortunately that wouldn't happen in America. When someone joins the military they are sent to a far away base. They are more likely to act against strangers than they are family. And even if they have to come down to it, the military trains them to kill family essentially. Such as the drills of loading up their mock-mothers and siblings.




posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:09 AM
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Some people seem to not be understanding the very simple principle pointed out by the OP.

It's not only about Egypt, it's about all of us. This protesting, which may become 'viral', is misguided. Overthrowing a particular 'leader' or 'regime' and replacing it with another is only a temporary fix to an ongoing and escalating global problem.

Of course, yes, a 'leader' can have their followers beat you, burn you, imprison you, or kill you... because their followers believe in their authority and enjoy being their 'empowered' tool. This is a philosophical problem for all of us.

No one can have power without someone else's permission.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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did you guys even read the post, or just the title??

he only has power, cause people believe he does... if they chose to ignore him and make their own govt or social circle, then he wouldnt be

*edit* meant for the last few posters on the first page
edit on 2-2-2011 by morder1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by morder1
did you guys even read the post, or just the title??

he only has power, cause people believe he does... if they chose to ignore him and make their own govt or social circle, then he wouldnt be

*edit* meant for the last few posters on the first page
edit on 2-2-2011 by morder1 because: (no reason given)


I have a theory.

Maybe it's a mix of several types of misunderstandings, each one unique to the person making the false assumptions.

Combinations even.

Nothing wrong with that though. I don't mean to sound insulting I am not.

I have made each of these types of false assumptions before as well. I am still making many in various areas, like on roofing or plumbing for example. I have many false assumptions. By learning those trades in depth, I could resolve those false assumptions by discovering the reality behind the imagined ideals to some extent.

Oh this reminds me of something I saw posted in another thread that was quite fascinating.
A keen member brought up the point of a logical fallacy called "Reification".

I didn't know the term off hand, so I went and wiki'd it.


Reification (also known as hypostatisation, concretism, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity.


That's totally the point of my OP. "Leader" and "Power" and "Control" are logical fallacies. Reification 101 it seems.


Wiki



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by eMachine

What this tells me is... if people can rally together in such a protest, people could also rally together and improve the situation. For instance, they could channel that same spirit of love and community to work together in a public agriculture project over the long-term, if they're hungry and poor. Okay, it's easier when we rally together against a common enemy... maybe we can make that enemy poverty and starvation?


Yes that is a logical solution. I really like your idea, but there are many other ideas too that can compliment that.
I am sure the limits are the imagination of the human mind. That's how we got here in the first place, our imagination misled us. We had false assumptions which led to trampling on each others rights.

There is no government.

There is only us. Human beings. We are the only true reality.
Corporations, Governments, they aren't human beings. They are just ideas.

Poorly misled ones I might add. Based entirely on making false assumptions.
Like Carl Sagan said once, the human brain is a computer. It works perfectly as long as it's not physically damaged in some way. It's the false information it is being fed, that leads to the poor actions or faulty conclusions. We assume based on what we know. Learning false information leads to false assumptions.

This is exactly why we protest in such ways. We are fed lies, and therefore we react incorrectly.

By finding out the Truth you can make better assumptions. Not perfect, but definitely better.

Violence is the problem, and is definitely not the solution.

That is what is happening in Egypt. People's rights are being trampled. By other people.
Not by Governments. Not by Corporations. Not by the President. Not by the Military.
But by human beings. Individuals.

These fake ideas, Govt, Corp, Leaders, etc. THEY are the Source of this Problem.
They never worked. History proves it. Today proves it.

If we get rid of the false assumptions, we can prevent the trampling of each other's rights.

Instead of fighting the police, talk to a human being. It works. As human beings we all share the same aspirations for the future of our society. We want to advance. We want to prosper.

By holding each other back, we are warping our development.

At this critical transitional phase in humanity it is critical we have accurate information to gauge our decisions on. It is imperative that we eliminate these false ideals from our paradigm of existence.

If we do not overcome these false assumptions, we will never be free. We will never realize how free we actually are, right now. Free to choose a new path, different than the old one.

Think of all of the problems this would solve.
Think of all the fake ideas that would vanish as we realize they are mere imagination.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 01:46 AM
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Excellent post! And because the people believe in theses false positions of power they will probably hand over thier power to someone just as bad or worse.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:02 AM
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ITT Muzzleflashes inevitable spiral towards political anarchy.

Which I am okay with.

Everything you just said is 100% correct.

It's why I keep saying the best way to fight the state is to completely ignore its existence and to kill off its supply. What would happen if for just one day, 75% of the country didn't buy gas, go to work, pay taxes, or follow fickle regulations and laws that make no sense? What would happen is a stroke to the states system.

What would happen if that persisted for a week? Or a month? Funny enough, the best way to destroy the states power and to take back control of our lives is to do the latter first and the ignore the former completely. By doing so you're using the own system to cause a collapse of itself because it lacks its fuel.

Revolution is simple. Sadly the average person is simpler.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:09 AM
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Firstly I would like to state that I agree that power, politics and etc, these are all illusions, unnecessary illusions that have been force fed to us our entire lives and for centuries previous. Agreed - and yet here they are.. I think the only thing I disagree with is the title in relation to the text, and only because it is such a broad idea; Egypt is, though, a great example.

This is in no way meant to degrade or disprove anything, it is an opinion based on observations which may or may not appear congruent to various reading eyes..

Power is a very VIVID illusion. It is a very vivid illusion that is supported by another very "powerful" illusion. That illusion is belief. I state this not to say that anyone's particular beliefs are invalid or inaccurate or any other such thing, I state this simply because it is true. Just like political power is an illusion, so, too, are whatever things people may or may not believe. These things have neither cause nor effect based on reality, things simply are or are not; whether you believe something that IS actually is NOT, or vice versa.. is irrelevant. That being said. BELIEF, being the powerful illusion that it is, has caused a great many instances of horror, and a great many instances of regret - this alone should prove its power.
With this powerful illusion comes a powerful responsibility to handle belief in a rational way, and though protest either violent or peaceful may not seem rational on the surface, sometimes (many times actually) it is simply the only option and therefore it is VERY rational. With that in mind, the Egyptian people see no other option, and rightly so IMHO, they no longer BELIEVE (i know its not all of a sudden, but this is the breaking point) that Mubarak should have reign over that illusion of power (which as stated above, becomes very real when coupled with mass belief, or i might add, MONEY - in the case of paid believers such as police/military) so how can oppressed people be WRONG about any of this? They share a common mass belief on an issue, and this alone HAS, to an extent, shifted the balance of power into their favour; BUT, Mubarak, by being voted into office, (however honestly or not) recognized globally as a leader and being backed by armed forces - who do what they are told.. retains the power. Illusory tho it may be, the power remains, and WILL remain, until the POWER of the believers overcomes the beliefs of those controlled..

That's my two cents, deposit it or not.
Great Thread, S&F



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by SpectreDC

It's why I keep saying the best way to fight the state is to completely ignore its existence and to kill off its supply. What would happen if for just one day, 75% of the country didn't buy gas, go to work, pay taxes, or follow fickle regulations and laws that make no sense? What would happen is a stroke to the states system.

What would happen if that persisted for a week? Or a month? Funny enough, the best way to destroy the states power and to take back control of our lives is to do the latter first and the ignore the former completely. By doing so you're using the own system to cause a collapse of itself because it lacks its fuel.

Revolution is simple. Sadly the average person is simpler.


Hehe. Nice post DC.

You are right.

The only way to defeat the Government, is to stop believing in it.

Poof, it's gone. It didn't exist. We just gotta realize it was our imagination.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:21 AM
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Awesome thread
. I think what is happening in Egypt is a certain group of people not necessarily from Egypt are spoon feeding the populace that " Do it this way", I fear their good intentions are being misguided. Kinda like the new boss looks just like the old boss?



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:29 AM
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The way i see it, the only reason that anyone has "power" is because a majority of people are really stupid and give their power to other people. There are a whole lot of people dumb enough to volunteer themselves to follow orders from someone else. If people everyone suddenly realized that, the people with "power" would be done for as soon as the current generation died off. Or sooner if the current generation decided to unvolunteer themselves.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by EmpathicBandit
I think the only thing I disagree with is the title in relation to the text, and only because it is such a broad idea; Egypt is, though, a great example.


The title is indeed shameless trolling. Without a good headline though, no one would read it. I'd imagine a great many interesting threads, making points such as the OP's, have gone completely unnoticed for lack of an alluring title.

It just happens that the content is completely relevant to the topic referenced in the title, which many on the boards here are already engaged in learning about, contemplating, and discussing. A bit manipulative, but absolutely merited imo.

Other than that, you've said nothing else that displeases me.

Personally, I'm loving the Egyptian protesters. What they're doing together is admirable and I'd love to be there. Not that I have an overly idealist notion of what's going on there, I know it's certainly not all roses and sunshine. Still I admire their courage.

What they may be lacking is a truly revolutionary idea to empower them and spark true change. Perhaps not. Perhaps there are pockets of protesters there discussing this right now (the media sure wouldn't let us know about that). Godspeed to them!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by EmpathicBandit
 


Very good points. And I agree. My thread title is a strange dichotomy.

Just remember our only real power, is our individual power to harm or help other individual human beings.

Those solders killing someone, they are individual human beings making that decision to pull the trigger. No one makes them do it. They can choose another far more honorable outcome.

Yes the people were forced into the revolt, because the false paradigms they believe in have created a totally intolerable and unjust system where humans violate the rights of other humans regularly.

The sooner we remedy the root of this problem, falsehoods, the sooner we can develop sustainable solutions to our collective problems.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:45 AM
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30 years ago the same thing happened to Iran, to the Shah, to his regime, and to the Iranian nation. Result was 8 years of bloody war with Iraq. (Main reason was to stop the Russian spreading wide as the Islam was the only weapon could be used against the BEAR power).

This one could be interpreted as a mild slap to the face of Israelis who don’t want to listen up to the Uncle Sam advices, actually good work and congratulations Mr President Obama ..!

History repeating…S.S.D.D…!



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


I like how you fail to address any of the criticism and just reply to people that agree with your skewed view of the real world.

Let me state again. When the secret police abduct you from your house for speaking your political views on the internet then proceed to torture you and maybe kill you, then you can tell me about how Mubarak has no power.

Instead you're an armchair idealist with no anchor to the real world.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 02:59 AM
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Without a good headline though, no one would read it.

Point well received, perhaps "disagree" was too strong a statement


...thread title is a strange dichotomy.

would have indeed been more fitting..




Just remember our only real power, is our individual power to harm or help other individual human beings.


This brings the question of fear of punishment though as well, though I don't disagree with your post, It tends to become a bit more complicated IMO when the said illusions are and have been in play for so long as to take on the role of influential power. Also, personal status, and the view of oneself BY oneself or others tends to be a very heavy factor.. never-mind the person writing your cheques

But yes, in the most basic self preserving and possibly primal way, we DO have that power.
It's all the other things that get in the way, truly...

all in all well said by both members quoted.
and goodnight. haha



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:00 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Based on your argument, then the NWO you have talked about is also a fallacy, since the illusion is they have power.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:23 AM
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I disagree. True the president is hiding out, but they don't have the government they want, or they wouldn't have the police tear gassing them everyday.
They wouldn't be dying in the streets.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by eMachine
 


Don't give anyone power then.
Our government wasn't really supposed to be about giving anyone power. It was about our brightest coming up with laws and rights any sane and free man would agree on. If we had those kinds of people working for us now we would be a lot better off. Except we let corporations give our politicians money and money now equals power. It never should have, but it does. Even our celebrities have power gained through money. They have the power to not face the full brunt of the law that normal citizens face. Our only problem is allowing our politicians to become wealthy.



posted on Feb, 2 2011 @ 05:39 AM
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This thread reminds me of the moment in zeitgeist3 when the people have surrounded the "government" and the police stands between them, smiling arrogantly, ready to start policing. Then they get the order to surrender and the people are satisfied and no violence is needed for the change.

In the real world such thing could not happen. There would be no surrendering by the government or president. He would use his "powers" as long as they are obeyed to enforce his authority, then flee the country when the situation turns bad.



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