reply to post by adjensen
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
It's not really evidence enough for the simple reason that it's unverifiable. I can not test that your subjective experience is accurate, I cannot
test whether or not you had all of the evidence required, I cannot test whether your prayer was something that would have inevitably happened
regardless of prayer.
Right, but the qualifier is that you've never experienced it, which is why I wouldn't expect you to allow my testimony to reach your level of
Even if I had experienced it, I'd have the same standards.
Of course, I might be wrong. I only have access to so much info, so please provide some studies if you have them.
Sure, here you go:
University of Chicago
I agree with the depression thing here, but I don't think they controlled for enough factors to indicate that prayer had any benefit or if that
benefit was merely a placebo or if it had anything to do with who was being prayed to.
Arizona State University
Metastudy. Too much to look at here.
*CONCLUSIONS: Acceptance of noetic adjuncts to invasive therapy for acute coronary syndromes was excellent, and logistics were feasible. No
outcomes differences were significant; however, index hospitalization data consistently suggested a therapeutic benefit with noetic therapy. Of
all noetic therapies, off-site intercessory prayer had the lowest short- and long-term absolute complication rates. Definitive demonstration of
treatment effects of this magnitude would be feasible in a patient population about 4 times that of this pilot study. Absolute mortality
differences make safety considerations a mandatory feature of future clinical trials in this area.*
There are plenty more, I am a bit surprised that you would have come to the conclusion that there were not.
I didn't conclude that there weren't, I just hadn't heard of them. Granted, I sort of understand why now that I've been doing some research.
The difficulty of prayer, I suppose, is that God rarely gives us what we want, but he always gives us what we need. Too many people ask
for "X", and when "Y" arrives instead, they assume that their prayer wasn't answered, but often times when we reflect afterwards, "Y" was
better for us than "X".
Tell that to anyone who has died praying for food.
As I replied to the poster above, the problem of pain is a difficult one.
This isn't a problem of pain, this is a problem of a person being robbed of their life. There is no justice in judging a child for a life's deeds
when their greatest accomplishment was starving to death.
This no paradise -- people die, people torture one another, lots of bad things happen. But one is struck by the Christian belief that God gave us
this world, and what we do it is on us, not on God.
Except that it is on God if you are correct about its existence. Omniscient being and all knew how things would turn out from the second it created
Also, the children starving to death? Didn't have much of a choice. People dying of E. Coli in the third world? Not much of a choice there either.
Hell, you claim your deity came to the Earth in the flesh and gave us such lessons as 'love your neighbor' which were sort of old hat in the Eastern
world...but he didn't bother to give us basic hygiene instructions, or germ theory, or agricultural practices to help things along. There's a big
book on my shelf that you claim to be the divinely inspired word of your deity and it contains no practical information, yet it contains what amounts
to several pages of genealogies.
We have the power to wipe out starvation, today, but because it suits us (people in general, not you or I necessarily) to have people starve to death,
And earthquakes? Tsunamis? Those aren't man-made (despite what some people on this website might think). Actually, it's still a design problem. This
being loved us so much...yet required us to consume other life to live. It's omnipotent, it could have made humans capable of photosynthesis from the
I don't mean to be personally critical, but sometimes you show a mature understanding of religious beliefs, and other times, like this, you show a
pretty shallow grasp. God is not some magical pixie, handing out gifts to "thems what asks enough." If something is contrary to God's will, he's
not going to do it. Period.
Then prayer is pointless
. Being is going to do it anyway. Period.
I don't have a shallow grasp of this subject, I understand all of the theology behind it. Unfortunately, it's all a massive load of contradictory
If it's not God's will? Then what's the point in asking?
We do not know what God's will is, we do not know the rationale by which prayers helps some and doesn't help others, and the best that we can do is
muddle through. That's the case whether you've got God around to blame or not.
And that's a reason why I tend to apply Occam's razor precisely at this point.
And God's will? Seems like crap judgment.
Now, I'm not an omniscient or omnipotent deity, but I'm quite sure "Freedom" is typically better for people than "Enslavement" and that
"Food" is better than "Starvation".
Who is enslaving them? Who is starving them? God?
...um...read a Bible. Slavery. God outlined practices for slavery instead of outright abolishing it. I brought it up for a reason.
Honestly, if you truly believe your being is omniscient and has a will then the purpose of prayer would be merely to have God occasionally hear
something that it was already going to do and knew it was already going to hear from you. You cannot have free will with a truly omniscient being.
There's also the infectious disease and the natural disasters. I know of no human that can stop an earthquake, that can prevent a hurricane, that can
push back a tsunami.
Then there are famines, which are typically the result of either invasive disease/pests or weather. Or are humans to blame for the potato famine?
Then there's the further issue with your problem, your deity is allowing humans to hold undue determination over the lives of others both ways.