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What is with all the threads attacking atheism/atheists lately?

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posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


No you didnt, you stated that science will never disprove it.

Here it is:


My friend, science will never disprove the existence of the supreme being


That seems like an absolute being preached here. You don't know the potential of science, it may prove God wrong, there may be information proving it right. No one knows yet (MAYBE they never will, but that's just a guess)

It depends how you define God, if you can't define God then how do you know that "it" exists without proving it so. Simply pointing to nature or the universe is not evidence of God. "Everything that is" can't be definined as God, unless you would put faith in such a theory.

The reason science MAY never disprove God would be the same reason religion may never PROVE God. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis. You hide behind this IAMIAM, you claim to reveal wisdom of the cause of the universe without knowing if it has a cause, and what caused it.

I believe TradionalDrummer has called you out on some of your contradictory statements. I don't find this behaviour to be admirable in debate, nor does it remind of any "GURU" or "wise-man"

Although, i respect your right to debate on here, by no means do i wish to be the "friend" of someone who has affirmed certainities or definiates regarding such important questions. So please refrain from using that on here.

Again, i respect your right to debate, discuss and argue on here.

A&A
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 





The only persuasion devices an Atheist has is argument and reason, it doesn't make threats that you may be guilty of being a "sinner" if you refuse to submit.


Yes but why persuade. This is the central tenent and having persuaded have you not converted??? Disingenuity will pass unnoticed.

Face facts non of the atheists have persuaded anyone of anythin. nor have an y xtians but that is not the topic in my post. By the time you get around to ATS most are happy exactly where they are. So why persuade any one?
edit on 5-2-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
No you didnt, you stated that science will never prove it, and therefore it will never prove it doesn't exist.


Slow down my friend. This is not what I said. This is what I said.



Science is a method of analysing the observed. The observer cannot observe itself.



Yet...


With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by tiger5
 


Not at all. By persuading i'm only using reason and language to TRY to convince someone of my argument , the converting is up to them. I don't ask people to convert, only to think. The thinking may lead to a change in beliefs.

Atheism doesn't have any fear mongering or tactics to convert. No metaphysical false hope or fear, no labels of "sinner" if you do not abide.

We don't class someone as "inferior" either if they do not convert. And we wouldn't dare say it even if we thought it to be true. This is slander of someone's character without proper judgement.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



My friend, science will never disprove the existence of the supreme being


How do you know?

Has it already proved it?

Of course you can't disprove it at the moment, for the same reason we can't diprove invisible blue unicorns - Because (CURRENTLY) they are unfalsifiable hypothesis. Unable to prove, unable to disprove.

It is most unscientific to state something can never be disproved. For KNOWLEDGE, such as the earth being an oblate spheroid - Of course that fact will never change. Try to disprove it, you can't disprove irrefutable evidence. You can't disobey truth.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
How do you know?


How do you know, anything?



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


Spare me the pseudo-philosophy.

Thanks.

I know i exist, i know i'm typing here.

I know the Earth is an oblate spheroid, i know that grass grows, that animals re-produce, that animals gradually change over time due to mutation. I KNOW why night and day occurs, i know why Earthquakes and volcanoes are caused.

Although i know very little compared to scientists and professional academics; i do know some things.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I know i exist, i know i'm typing here.

I know the Earth is an oblate spheroid, i know that grass grows, that animals re-produce, that animals gradually change over time due to mutation. I KNOW why night and day occurs, i know why Earthquakes and volcanoes are caused.

Although i know very little compared to scientists and professional academics; i do know some things.


I did not ask WHAT you know.

I asked HOW you know you know.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


Empirical evidence.

Really simple question to answer.



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Empirical evidence.

Really simple question to answer.


Thank you.

Can I sum this up as "Seeing is believing?"

Would that be accurate?

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


No.

I could see a "UFO", that doesn't mean i believe it's an Alien Race. For i might be ignorance of natural phenomonem.

Seeing is often subjective.

I don't promote "Seeing is believing"

Look at quantam theory and the double split experiment. Things are not as they seem.

Although i can't "see" the effects of Quantam mechanics, i can still put trust in them, using empirical evidence.

Multiverse theory is an unfalsifiable hypothesis, but it is formed using mathematics relating to quantam theory. Although i can't demonstrate or prove this theory, i can put more trust in it than a blind theory like "GOD".

"GOD" is just a guess of the unknown, a pressumption, not based on any logical or empirical evidence.

Again, no one knows the cause of the universe; not Atheist, not Christian, one has asserted 1 belief system regarding the universe, the other rejects that theory on the grounds of a lack of information and understanding of the universe and it's mechanics.

Again, whilst you may not have a belief in a deity, you can still be "Spiritual".
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
No.

I could see a "UFO", that doesn't mean i believe it's an Alien Race. For i might be ignorance of natural phenomen.

Seeing is often subjective.

I don't promote "Seeing is believing"

Look at quantam theory and the double split experiment. Things are no as they seem.

Although i can't "see" the effects of Quantam mechanics, i can still put trust in them, using empirical evidence.


Ok, I understand that seeing is NOT believing. I am still confused on how you KNOW what you think you KNOW then.

How do you KNOW?

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


Empirical evidence. How medicines, vaccines, knowledge regarding the universe is gathered. We put trust in the best theories, until we can disprove or prove it as fact. Somethings cannot be proved or disproved, but they can be rationalised as i have already said.

I have always admitted that i cannot prove whether a God does or doesn't exist, or whether a teapot exists on pluto or not. I don't have the evidence.

It would be unwise to conclude anything. Even a creator. It's just a guess. Faith is not enough for me. I'm sure if this deity does exist, he will understand my sceptical mind on judgement day, and he will see that i am a compassionate and loving human.

Pascal's wager isn't enough to give up my critical thinking faculities.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Pascal's wager isn't enough to give up my critical thinking faculties.


GREAT! Strap that thinking cap on nice and tight we are going for a ride.

Have you read Plato's allegory of the Cave?

I'll Summarise it in my own words just in case you haven't.

There are seven men chained in a cave. All they see all their lives are shadows on the wall caused by the little light that enters the cave. Through out their lives they each describe what they see and build their world view based on these images. This is all they know and they are certain this is their world.

One day the shackles fall off and the men escape the cave. What they see astonishes them. All that they thought they knew about reality was nothing more than shadows created by but a small bit of light. The real world was brighter than they ever could have imagined.

The point to recounting this tale for you is to be a lesson in NEVER claiming to know anything! All you know is what the shadows of our reality reveal.

Question everything! Even the existence or non existence of GOD. Never trap yourself into believing you KNOW. Once you know, you are just as blind as the man in the cave.

Does this make sense?

Enjoy the journey.

Love it, and your fellow travellers. You do not need a label. You to are nothing more than another I AM.

With Love,

Your Brother




edit on 5-2-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:27 AM
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Re One4all

I must start by saying, that I'm no stranger to your general approach/perspective. And that I usually don't start private communication (U2U) until I'm fairly certain, that it's worth it.

In my opinion you show some considerable insight in the dynamics of 'reality'-searching, and from personal experience I know, that this basically epistemological perspective isn't a popular subject, so the few users of it tend to become somewhat condescending, giving good advices left and right (that would most likely include me also, if I could be objective about myself, but that's another story).

So please don't patronize me without knowing me better.

Ofcourse there's an incredible story in the bible as well as in many other existential manuals. And there are also chinese-box 'levels' in such manuals, both intrinsically and correspondingly in which of the chinese boxes (which 'level'), you choose as perspective/observation-point/interpretation platform. A complex feed-back system making people climb the walls.

I like to play the fool, which can give the impression, that I'm flippant, even glib, where I'm actually an exponent of an old tradition manifested in zen, old-school tao'ism and the jester-part of sufism (none of us will admit to a categorization though, as this as a 'way' is highly individual).

From the various chinese-box ('level') positions, intrinsic and observational dichotomies are easily recognized. Maybe the simplest one is the scientific micro/macro-cosmos explanation dichotomy. Both are somewhat separate, but seem to function on their respectively territory.

So until we know (if ever, and if it exists) 'ultimate reality', we have to find the proper tool (observation platform) to each level under observation. A heck of a lot of calibrating all the time.

So yes, your thoughts on authors, the limits of their frames, visual-spatial and other perceptual mechanisms, epistemologically chosen systematic methodologies and ofcourse individual mindsets factors are valid. And then there are additional suggestions such as epinoia-experiences being valid (I'm all for that one, but in a somewhat deductive context, not the usual inductive flitting around), and a tentative 'working backwards' from models such as a cosmos based on relating, rather than on a created hierarchy.

There's an enormous amount of options, and many of them have been presented on this thread, often rather rigidly fixed both on the observation-point (perspective) and on the level observed. This is truly Babel-talk.

Personally I've found a private 'answer', or at least a functional direction, and apart from that my main attitude in a public context have two simplistic parts: 1/ Don't try to create opinion monopolies (however deep or shallow) and 2/ my own position is on positions as such, less the manifesting 'answers'.



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


I've heard of that Allegory. Here's a illustrative depiction for other users:-




Whilst things could be not as they seem, i.e. Quantam mechanics. This still does not justify "faith" in theories that can't be rationalised (YET)

A question then; metaphorically speaking, which part of the cave is "GOD"?

Cave allegory relies on the existence of caves and our knowledge of shadows - How does this prove anything regarding the universe, the cave is a contruction of the universe anyway? I don't understand your point.

I'm more than happy to accept "absense of evidence is not evidence of absence" I still remain an Agnostic Atheist.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
A question then; metaphorically speaking, which part of the cave is "GOD"?


Thank YOU!!!!!!!!

The answer is, I DO NOT KNOW.

God is the UNKNOWN.

We should relentless pursue it. Every time with out fail that we pursue the unknown, we are rewarded!

Now.

To boldly go where no man has gone before...

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 



I DO NOT KNOW.

God is the UNKNOWN.


Of course this is my answer. And yes God is the unknown - in ancient times God was earthquakes, God was thunder and lighting, God was volcanoes, God was the ocean, God was the rain.

It's the good old "God of the Gaps"

"We don't undestand - Must be God."

I'm sure if God is that obvious, then the scientific methodology will prove it so. At the moment, there's no information, so it would be unwise to guess.

Agnostic Atheism is the open-minded position that states, i'm happy to renounce my Atheism providing there is enough reason to do so, at the moment, many scientists agree that there is no enough evidence to assert a belief, or even to have blind faith.

Thanks.



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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Just remember, stating "GOD is the unknown" doesn't prove that God is the unknown. It's just a "GOD of the Gaps" fallacy.


To boldly go where no man has gone before...


That statement still stands, whether you believe or dis-believe in a God. In fact, it's the notorious phrase of the science-fiction program Star-Trek, and is regarding our voyage into the final frontier; SPACE. The unknown. This doesn't imply God.
edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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You know you know by asking others if you know,we are all existing within a cumulative reality,that means all of us together everywhere at the same time all of the time.

One human really can have an impact on all of humanity,we each do it every day we live and make choices of free will,our free will choices lend our energy or vote to a specific reality that is possible for humanity to experience a reality that we cumulatively create like a perpetual work of art as a painting for example.

You dont know you know anything because of yourself or your own being it is through the being of others that you are able to quantify yourself.

This is why there is a constant effort to manipulate humans minds through the provision of or exclusion of REAL TIME INFORMATION,real time information allows us to ferret out liars and manipulators.

Governments,Religons and other powermongering entities have ONLY this power to continue to fight for their existanceyou see once we are all on the same page these things will literally cease to exist because we wont need them.

It is only because of organised and intentional disruption of free unfettered real time information exchange that these entities ever were created at all.They are not real,they are contrived to manipulate and control humanity,to stifle our ability to all get on the same page at the same time.

In egypt the only thing the government could do to CHEAT THE PEOPLES VOICES was to black out the net and phones,this is like burning books,it is a crime against humanity.

The egyptian government knows what the world is learning quickly,the game is over corruption and lieing to the masses is a thing of the past,the internet is not just a tool it is a revolution and it is unstoppable.

You see when we hear the cries for help from the egyptian people we instinctively react to our humanitarian emotions like love and caring and concern and a need not a want but a need to help.

We exist in a cumulative reality we are not all little islands as these soon to be gone entities have tried to convince us we are,we really are all ONE.

We dont get to chose bad things as individuals things that are counter to humanities future or present and simply recruit enough accomplices to enforce our secular beliefs.

The internet is fixing this little problem by letting us all communicate in REAL TIME.

There are no more gaps or lapses in the availability of the TRUTH to people all over the planet at essentially the SAME TIME,no cracks for the liars and manipulators to hide in.

When the egyptian people say they dont want the government and the majoirity can communicate in real time thereby gaining the knowledge or perspective that they ALL DONT WANT SOMETHING THAT IS SOMEHOW STILL IN EXISTANCE AGAINST THEIR CUMULATIVE FREE CHOICES---they will react to this fraud by forcing immediate change.And if the world can hear their cries for help we will help,egypt is the beginning of a landslide movement of countries both small and superpowers who are going to face serious realignments in the near future.Corruption will be eliminated by the provision and maintenance of real time information to the masses.

They arent looking for a vote recount or reforms,they want the liars gone and right now not later not tomorrow but right now because they never had the right to be there in the first place so they deserve no concession only prosecution in the peoples court of law.

The internet is changing our reality at warp speed,hang on and get out of politics and religon and big business while you still can,if you have made a living off of humanity in an immoral or dishonest manner get out now because the whole world knows what is going on in real time and the clock is ticking on your demise if you dont abandon ship.

Dont believe for a second that ideas like religon or god have anything to do with these positive changes because these changes are rendering religons as we hve know them OBSOLETE,when we have the provision of real time information to the masses we dont need religons to answer our questions ,we have all of humanity available to answer our questions.







edit on 5-2-2011 by one4all because: (no reason given)




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