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What is with all the threads attacking atheism/atheists lately?

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posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by something wicked
 


You think I'm asserting a belief? You believe that?




posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by tiger5
 



Originally posted by tiger5
Firstly there are several meta studies. I cannot understand why you are so far behind the curve.

You should learn to use search engines. If you google this

"esp + metastudy"

You will find that there have been at least twenty in the last ten years. The reason is that the field is huge and rapidly evolving.


I did search PubMed and came up with nothing. Granted, that's a collection of hard science, might not be the best place to look. When I did Google things I found 3 results of a meta studies all from the same journal...and they're all bad science. Hell, I'm a communications student with a philosophy minor and I can find the research errors in these meta studies quite quickly. Aside from that, a meta analysis doesn't actually prove a phenomenon exists, it merely provides an analysis of a combined data set, regardless of whether that data set was flawed or not.

Now, can you direct me to a scientific paper that actually performs controlled, blinded experiments that shows that some form of ESP exists?



A new paper is coming out soon and has been mentioned in the NY times.


Link please? Tried Google and the NYT website, couldn't find it.



I am not a perfoming chimp. I will show you the proof and you can do with it as you will but you will have your proof as I have mine. Alsoi the beauty of the experiment is that you can then set upo your own experiments as I have. I really have no time for armchair practioners of anything.


So I have to accept to 18 months of paying you before I can even see that it works? I'm sorry, but do you see how insane that is?

If you proved that this thing exists, I'd have no problem learning to do it. But why would I want to give you 18 months worth of pay, which I'm guessing has to be a sizable chunk of money, to have you teach me something that hasn't been proven to me?

You're not a performing chimp? Well, I'm nobody's sugar daddy.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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Re Awake

Thanks Dude, will do.

It's kind of messy around here, don't you think?



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by sterlingmoon
 


I believe the mistake of mankind is to talk about God in terms of [certainities (definitives/absolutes) before evidence, even if God is true. It's certainly seems that God is not a caring God if "HE" does exist.


I use to think the same exact thing... but now I believe we have free will and bring it all on ourselves as a human race so to say by the choices we make. I think ***** happens and isnt the direct result of god doing it... just part of life. I use to wonder what it would be like to be born another animal such as a gazzel. Litterally having to live life in a dog eat dog world... and some people at times are simular altho by different means.
As I have lived life in my own experiances I do believe in good and I belive in evil as I have seen both. I have also seen the differences as far as conciousness/ intelligence among different species. If God does exist we are his children in a way.. as he created us. Speaking as a mother I can not control what my child does to a certain extent just try my best to instill in her what I see fit for her to be a happy healthy functioning human being in the society presented to her to the best of my ability. Now with that being said to be completely honest if my child was to commit an act that was completly disgusting and unfathomable no matter how much it disturbed me and pained me I would still love her the same as I always have.
edit on 3-2-2011 by sterlingmoon because: left out a word in a sentence



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Re Iowki

Kind of following up on Madness' recent answers to you, it would be interesting to know, how you exactly go from e.g. the double-split experiment to 'observer-created' reality. You must have SOME micro-to-macrocosmos link.....,

Hey the Holographic Universe.
What we see at one level of magnification,
is necessarily represented at every other level.



.......or maybe you have just looked at 'What the bleep do we know?' two times already and are now a qualified specialist.

Just like MadnessInMySoul my father is also a Physicist.
His main research was in heavy metals,
now he does computer programming.

Anyhow so that piqued my interest in physics,
and so I decided to learn the various physics of the world,
just as I also learned the various computer programming languages of the world.

Every son, or at least eldest sons, strive to outdo their father.

My grandmother was a Semi-conductor physicist that managed the first computers in Kiev, (Ukraine, Soviet-Union)
My grandfather helped build and maintain the first computers in Kiev,
My mother worked for my grandma as a computer-programmer.

Makes me a third-generation physicist and computer expert.
Not sure if you believe in evolution,
evolutionary algorithms work,
in computing environments.



You see, I've spent app. the last 15 years of my life on the specific problem of an epistemology suitable for syncretistically unification of (the more reasonable) claims from many different directions. And I would love to find (at least somewhat) convincing conclusions on 'observer created existence', as it is my present favourite epistemological position.

Hope you're satisfied,
it's fairly simple reasoning.

I'll give you some more evidence,
the most stable group in an online gaming clan is between 50-60,
The atom Nickel has isotope number 57 which is protons plus neutrons.

The largest number of people in a group by Dunbar's Number is about 100-230,
Gold one of the largest safe and fairly common atoms is isotope number 199.


edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: Dunbar's Number



But darn it, if I'll go out and make a fool of myself
by using the populistic evangelist
and new-age methodology of having the answer
and tailoring the 'facts' to fit it.


Well then test it yourself first.
That's the difference between second-hand and first-hand knowledge.
edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: test it


My mom was always a self-help book fan,
which included lots of buddhist and new-age stuff.

So I also did lots of research in eccentric belief systems,
especially in how they could be used for personal gain.
That's how I came upon magic spell casting.

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: magic

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: third generatio achievements

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: evolutionary algorithms



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 06:34 PM
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Re Iowki

You wrote:

["Hey the Holographic Universe. What we see at one level of magnification, is necessarily represented at every other level."]

If the model is true. And even then there'll be the problem of where the hologram(s) is/are placed. E.g. so deeply imbedded in the individual dualistic polarized cosmos fragment, that solipsism will be an option; or a cosmic collective mind, and alternatively up to an insane demiurge.

Quote: ["I'll give you some more evidence, the most stable group in an online gaming clan is between 50-60,
The atom Nickel has isotope number 57 which is protons plus neutrons.

the top number of people in a group by sociological research is about 150-200, Gold one of the largest safe and fairly common atoms is isotope number 199."]

And this very loosely knitted set of inductive reasoning demonstrates what...?

Quote: ["What are populistic evangelists?"]

Amongst several optional answers, this one is maybe the most relevant (presuming that 'evangelist' is fairly well defined in a general context): Propagandists appealing to gullibility in humans so desparate for predigested answers, that the processes leading to such answers are of minor importance.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Re Iowki

You wrote:

["Hey the Holographic Universe. What we see at one level of magnification, is necessarily represented at every other level."]

If the model is true. And even then there'll be the problem of where the hologram(s) is/are placed. E.g. so deeply imbedded in the individual dualistic polarized cosmos fragment, that solipsism will be an option; or a cosmic collective mind, and alternatively up to an insane demiurge.



All that can be thought of exists.

Before anything there was nothing,
since then there has been gradually more things.

The great spiral of life,
more complicated with every turn.




Quote: ["I'll give you some more evidence, the most stable group in an online gaming clan is between 50-60,
The atom Nickel has isotope number 57 which is protons plus neutrons.

the top number of people in a group by sociological research is about 150-200, Gold one of the largest safe and fairly common atoms is isotope number 199."]

And this very loosely knitted set of inductive reasoning demonstrates what...?

It fortifies the Holographic Universe,
though also supports neo-tribalism as a form of organization.

If we wish to learn to live in stable communities,
we can learn from the most stable communities in the universe,
the most stable things in the universe are atoms,
which can interconnect to form molecules etc.




Quote: ["What are populistic evangelists?"]

Amongst several optional answers, this one is maybe the most relevant (presuming that 'evangelist' is fairly well defined in a general context): Propagandists appealing to gullibility in humans so desparate for predigested answers, that the processes leading to such answers are of minor importance.

I have edited my post after that statement,
with descriptions of the processes that lead to my answers.
If you'd like more clarity on any issue feel free to ask.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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Additional Re Iowki

Some editing seems to have taken place after I answered first time. No blame.

Quote: ["Well then test it yourself first. That's the difference between second-hand and first-hand knowledge"]

Gosh, why didn't anyone tell me about this before?

Quote: ["My mom was always a self-help book fan, which included lots of buddhist and new-age stuff."]

Can't say I'm surprised after reading your posts.

Quote: ["So I also did lots of research in eccentric belief systems, especially in how they could be used for personal gain. That's how I came upon magic spell casting."]

You have a lovely moral character. There are certain risks involved though with using the Bön Po way (if you're referring to semi-buddhist methods here). But be it far from me to save you from yourself. As you said: First-hand knowledge is the best.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Additional Re Iowki

Quote: ["So I also did lots of research in eccentric belief systems, especially in how they could be used for personal gain. That's how I came upon magic spell casting."]

You have a lovely moral character.

thanks :-)



There are certain risks involved though with using the Bön Po way (if you're referring to semi-buddhist methods here).

never heard of it.
I was inspired by direct-magic,
I just write what I wish in my journal,
in the simplest and most clear terms that I can.



But be it far from me to save you from yourself.

lol, well you should make safety spells,
and make sure you only wish happy safe things,
for yourself and those around you.

I'm living in paradise remember?
I attain everything I wish for.



As you said: First-hand knowledge is the best.

Yep,
You can live in paradise now,
with your current incarnation, host-body, life or whatever you call it.
edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: safe

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: direct-magic

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: .



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by lowki
 



All that can be thought of exists.


Does this mean the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists? I hope so. I've always wanted one as a pet. What about 1 trillion dollars in my bank account? Never mind, I checked and it isn't there.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by lowki
 


You may have a great pedigree, but you're still demonstrating some very basic misrepresentations of physics. And the idea of the holographic universe is not anywhere near a scientifically accepted model. There isn't anywhere near enough evidence to explain its incredibly extraordinary claims.

The Holographic universe model is purely in the world of abstraction and philosophical thought, there isn't anything physical to support the idea.

...and I'm still waiting for some more. Like about your silly unscientific dinosaurs and humans claim. Or my refutation of the claim that science is faith based...

And are you willing to take back the claim that science hasn't made a testable theory in the last 70 years? Or that you're scientific when your primary focus is on personal experience?

..I could go on, but the post is right here for you to respond to...



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:17 PM
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Re:Re:Re Iowki

You wrote:

["All that can be thought of exists."]

This is the second time in a week, I've recieved confirmation on the existence of the flying spaghetti monster through applied esotericology in the connoisseur's version. I KNEW it all along, that he/she/it (the spaghetti monster) exists.

But to spoil the joy a bit. You didn't actually answer my original question on why the holographic universe model is THE answer. You just give me some consequences of a doctrinal answer on it.

Quote: ["Before anything there was nothing, since then there has been gradually more things."]

Profound. But what's the nothing then? Nothing-nothing or just fake-nothing?

Quote: ["It fortifies the Holographic Universe, though also supports neo-tribalism as a form of organization."]

How stupid I am. I should have seen this at once.

Quote: ["If we wish to learn to live in stable communities, we can learn from the most stable communities in the universe, the most stable things in the universe are atoms, which can interconnect to form molecules etc."]

Except that the subatomic elementary particles according to zero-point physics flicker in and out of 'existence' every split-split second, and some of them on occasion manifests as waves instead of particles, and furthermore are subject to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Apart from that, you may be right. Though the common opinion amongst scientists not so informed as you is, that observed 'stability' is manifested in macro-cosmos.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by Condemned0625
reply to post by lowki
 



All that can be thought of exists.


Does this mean the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists? I hope so. I've always wanted one as a pet.

wow, what a synchronicity,
today my partner and I were at the dollar store,
and she's been playing a game about a unicorn,
so she got herself a Transluscent Pink Unicorn.

I hadn't noticed that she got it,
so I got her one also, as a valentines present,
anyhow, I guess I could send it to you since it's extra,
can PM me if you really want it.



What about 1 trillion dollars in my bank account?
Never mind, I checked and it isn't there.

With hyper-inflation, soon enough we'll all have lots of money.
Everyone is gonna get those millions and whatever,
just numbers on pieces of paper anyhow.

Hey, if you want, can buy monopoly money, it's about the same.

Personally I feel wretched when I think of money,
when I was a pirate, I killed so many people for money,
and I didn't even get to spend most of it,
cause it was buried for later,
and then I died,
oh well.

Much better to develop skills and knowledge,
stuff that will let you win the reproduction-game.
Reproducing food, products, knowledge, and of course host-bodies.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by ShogunAssassins
You will see more and more of this as we get closer to 2012, they all think they are "awake" and above the rest of us. And the 2012 date just hyped them up.
edit on 1-2-2011 by ShogunAssassins because: (no reason given)


What do you mean by "they all"? "The rest of us" is who? "Hyped them up" means what? Seppuku will get you nowhere.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by lowki
 


You may have a great pedigree,

thanks :-)


but you're still demonstrating some very basic misrepresentations of physics.
And the idea of the holographic universe is not anywhere near a scientifically accepted model.

You're talking about it as if there weren't a large variety of scientists.



There isn't anywhere near enough evidence to explain its incredibly extraordinary claims.

The Holographic universe model is purely in the world of abstraction and philosophical thought, there isn't anything physical to support the idea.


Did you know that this is an ancient concept,
Hermetic "As above, so below",
Medieval "Microcosm, Macrocosm".




...and I'm still waiting for some more. Like about your silly unscientific dinosaurs and humans claim.


You're stuck in a duality,
where some things are accessible "right",
and some things you choose to block off "wrong".

That's completely fine,
indeed things that are dangerous should be blocked.
Just know that you have the option,
to allow for your own paradise in life now.


I'm sure you know of Reptilians,
from Alpha Draconis, part of our Galactic History.
news.exopoliticssouthafrica.org...


Or my refutation of the claim that science is faith based...


From answers.com


1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

www.answers.com...

Are you confident in your beliefs?
Or are you skeptical, maybe atheism is ~

Look it's fine by me,
maybe you'll find something more believable.



And are you willing to take back the claim that science hasn't made a testable theory in the last 70 years?

I didn't say science, I said physics.

I do agree, there has been much progress,
much of it in top-secret and classified programs,
but none-the-less technological innovation continues to progress.



Or that you're scientific when your primary focus is on personal experience?

..I could go on, but the post is right here for you to respond to...



And here I thought you said you were scientific. Experience is not scientific. You have to provide to provide evidence that is testable, repeatable, and controlled.

Yes Experience is testable, repeatable and controllable.

Imagine a letter in your mind,
you've tested that you can do it,
you've repeated something I have done,
and you have been in control the whole time.

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: galactic-history



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by lowki
 



Originally posted by lowki


but you're still demonstrating some very basic misrepresentations of physics.
And the idea of the holographic universe is not anywhere near a scientifically accepted model.

You're talking about it as if there weren't a large variety of scientists.


There are a large variety of scientists...and very few of them are claiming what you claim and all of the ones who do claim what you claim have one thing in common: a lack of evidence for their claims.





There isn't anywhere near enough evidence to explain its incredibly extraordinary claims.

The Holographic universe model is purely in the world of abstraction and philosophical thought, there isn't anything physical to support the idea.


Did you know that this is an ancient concept,
Hermetic "As above, so below",
Medieval "Microcosm, Macrocosm".


So? Ancient concepts aren't any more valid than modern ones. More often they're not, they're invalid. Just ask Ptolemy.





...and I'm still waiting for some more. Like about your silly unscientific dinosaurs and humans claim.

You're stuck in a duality,
where some things are accessible "right",
and some things you choose to block off "wrong".

That's completely fine,
indeed things that are dangerous should be blocked.
Just know that you have the option,
to allow for your own paradise in life now.


...no, you made a claim that dinosaurs coexisted with humans. It's not just a 'wrong' claim, but a ridiculous claim. We have no evidence of dinosaurs less than 65 million years ago. None. None at all. There are tens of millions of years between the last dinosaur specimens and the first hominids.





Or my refutation of the claim that science is faith based...


From answers.com


1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.


Are you confident in your beliefs?
Or are you skeptical, maybe atheism is ~

Look it's fine by me,
maybe you'll find something more believable.


I already explained it to you. Science is confident in believe based on the results of testing. If the testing doesn't support a claim than no confident assertion can be made. Even if you want to call science "faith", it is not the same sort of faith as religious and spiritual faith.

And don't give me crap about testing claims. You are not testing them in the same manner than science is. Science performs highly controlled, double-blinded trials to ensure the most accurate results possible. Scientists often spend as much time devising the experiment as they do carrying it out (depending on the time frame of the experiment)





And are you willing to take back the claim that science hasn't made a testable theory in the last 70 years?

I didn't say science, I said physics.


I'm sorry, I misspoke. Physics. Higgs-Boson, 1964. Testable claim of physics.



I do agree, there has been much progress,
much of it in top-secret and classified programs,
but none-the-less technological innovation continues to progress.


Much of it top-secret? Human genome project! Public!





Or that you're scientific when your primary focus is on personal experience?

..I could go on, but the post is right here for you to respond to...



And here I thought you said you were scientific. Experience is not scientific. You have to provide to provide evidence that is testable, repeatable, and controlled.

Yes Experience is testable, repeatable and controllable.


I'm sorry, but it is by definition not. Why? Because it is not observable. And observable means by other people. You also cannot control experience to any valid degree. It's why it's frowned upon to experiment on one's self. It's not just sometimes dangerous, it's always bad science.



Imagine a letter in your mind,
you've tested that you can do it,
you've repeated something I have done,
and you have been in control the whole time.


Except that we have no way of observing each other do it. I have not necessarily seen the letter in the same font, size, color, stroke intensity, position in the plane of my mental image, relative rotation of the letter, etc. And the only way I can confirm these things is by telling you. And I could just make stuff up, forget what I experienced, or misinterpret what I experienced.

Not very scientific when "he could just be making it up" is an option you can't simply dismiss.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 08:05 PM
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In my opinion, if you're an atheist or belong to one of the Abrahamic religions, you're both equally wrong and lazy. The religions just go along with what's already there, and the atheists try to tell us we can never know the truth about spirituality. Before the internet people couldn't be blamed too much. But at this point it's very clear that we can know the truth about spirituality, shamans have known these truths for a long, long time. The ancient aliens who taught the Mystery School style knowledge have given us a long line of people who have known the truth. Most of it was lost and only the indigenous still lived by the universal laws and communicated with spirits. But with the internet, we can find a whole host of indigenous people with this knowledge and a whole new breed of spiritual seekers. We have plenty of psychics, channelers, and energy workers, not only do their own experiences offer proof, but they usually find "illusive proof" for what they're experiencing very quickly in ancient traditions. Atheists claim we can't know these sorts of things, but we've known about them from our very beginning, we just forgot most of them, then religion came about and destroyed most of it. Then the religions screwed everything up and once they were allowed, people disliked it. But then they can't find any other truths, so they just assume we can't ever know the truth until we die. I believe most atheists were former Christians, as well as many agnostics, but we need a name for the people who just plain don't care because that's certainly the largest group. So these three groups are formed on the basis that we can't know the truth about spiritual matters, and Western religion bastardizes the whole notion of spiritual, and we're supposed to believe those are the only options, Christianity or nothing at all.

If you want some more of that "illusive proof", check out the link in my sig, there's a ridiculous amount of information out there. Even without major paranormal or metaphysical experiences, you can easily see the spiritual side of your life, you can get plenty of personal experience proof with what are generally called synchronicities. People ask for proof and I tell them I'm living proof, there's also the ridiculous amount of chills you get while reading these materials.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
Re:Re:Re Iowki

You wrote:

["All that can be thought of exists."]

This is the second time in a week, I've recieved confirmation on the existence of the flying spaghetti monster through applied esotericology in the connoisseur's version. I KNEW it all along, that he/she/it (the spaghetti monster) exists.


I'm happy that comforts you. :-)



But to spoil the joy a bit. You didn't actually answer my original question on why the holographic universe model is THE answer. You just give me some consequences of a doctrinal answer on it.

Which question are you talking about?




Quote: ["Before anything there was nothing, since then there has been gradually more things."]

Profound. But what's the nothing then? Nothing-nothing or just fake-nothing?


zero-mother, dark, warm, numb, silent, Ying
by meditating on nothing, clearing all thoughts,
you too can experience what so many meditators have.



Quote: ["It fortifies the Holographic Universe, though also supports neo-tribalism as a form of organization."]

How stupid I am. I should have seen this at once.

can instead cast that you're smart,
and have increasing abilities to comprehend concepts conveyed.



Quote: ["If we wish to learn to live in stable communities, we can learn from the most stable communities in the universe, the most stable things in the universe are atoms, which can interconnect to form molecules etc."]

Except that the subatomic elementary particles according to zero-point physics flicker in and out of 'existence' every split-split second, and some of them on occasion manifests as waves instead of particles, and furthermore are subject to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Apart from that, you may be right.

yes, note how I said atoms. :-)
Atoms can use and create various subatomic particles,
such as photons and electrons.



Though the common opinion amongst scientists not so informed as you is, that observed 'stability' is manifested in macro-cosmos.

atoms are most stable,
that they are multi-dimensional,
and have the ability to move,
doesn't change that fact.
edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: can be able

edit on 3/2/11 by lowki because: ying



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Student X
 


I provided a link in one of my previous responses. Another source from the same incident where this tribe of atheists converted a missionary.


So just to clarify, you are presenting the Pirahã as an example of a "tribal cultures on this planet that have no form of religion, no concept of deities, no afterlife, no spirits, no supernatural at all." Is that correct?

If so I must, yet again, take issue with you. The Pirahã have a concept of spirits. They, just like any other tribal culture, are mythological thinkers with a shamanic element in their culture. That means they indeed do have the 'supernatural' and 'spirits'.

Cosmology

"The cosmos is represented in a stratigraphic way: layers of land placed one on top of the other, producing parallel planes which do not physically communicate, except through the beings that inhabit them. What identifies these layers as members of the same class is their morphological base. Each level presents its own morphology composed of water, earth, trees and animals, varying only in form, size and number.

Although all the levels are designated migi, ‘earth,’ the difference between them is marked by their contents and the place they occupy in the structuration of the cosmos.

The Pirahã admit they do not know the exact number of levels. Despite the uncertainty in relation to the layers of earth composing the cosmos, people reduce this complex structure to a single model, retaining details and impressions for only five levels, which appear to make up the minimum possible form for representing their cosmology.

____________________ abaisi e ibiisi

____________________ abaisi e ibiisi

____________________ ibiisi

____________________ abaisi, kaoaiboge, toipe, ibiisi

____________________ abaisi e ibiisi

The lines correspond to the cosmic levels. Each of these is inhabited by particular beings (see the names on the right). The middle level is inhabited exclusively by ibiisi beings, the others by both abaisi and ibiisi, except for the level immediately below the middle, which also shelters the kaoaiboge and the toipe. Ibiisi is a generic designation for ‘human being:’ the Pirahã, Whites and other Indians are all ibiisi. What defines an ibiisi is its possession of a body with a specific form. The abaisi have the same general form as the ibiisi (they are anthropomorphic), but this form is imperfectly realized: they are defective or deformed beings. The kaoaiboge and toipe are posthumous transformations of the ibiisi, inhabiting the level immediately beneath the middle.

The Pirahã have an elaborate naming system directly linked to their cosmology. A Pirahã child receives its first name even before birth while still in the maternal womb. The received name has a close relation to fetal conception – it is the name of the body (ibiisi).

Another source of names comes from the abaisi beings who inhabit the cosmos. While the names linked to conception, origin names, are responsible for the creation of its matter, its support, the ibiisi (body), the names linked to the abaisi beings are related to its ‘soul,’ ‘destiny’ names.

The dead have an important role in the naming process. While the abaisi compete to provide names to give to the ‘soul’ or the possibility of a posthumous destiny, the dead in general compete for the responsibility to appear in the shamanic ritual, representing the name of the abaisi and passing them, via the shaman, to the ibiisi. The Pirahã belief is that by possessing an abaisi name, the transformation into kaoaiboge and toipe will be assured, each of these thus determining a destiny. Each abaisi name possessed by an individual refers to the possibility of his or her transformation into two beings, called kaoaiboge and toipe.

Kaoaiboge is a peaceful being that feeds on fruit and fish, a victim of the cannibalistic toipe. Thus, if an individual has eight abaisi names he or she will certainly have his or her destiny assured through transformation into eight kaoaiboge and eight toipe.

The relationship with enemies is another source of names. According to the Pirahã, a class of people designated euebihiai used to exist in their society. This category included the warriors/killers whose main objective was the killing of enemies and game, providing the ritual food to be consumed. Enemies produced names, game no, but both were treated in the some form in the rituals performed for their ingestion. The killers carefully observed the enemy before killing him in order to name him. The killer then gave the enemy the abaisi name possessed by a deceased person.

We can see that the logic of this type of onomastic practice was based on the physical similarity of bodies: an enemy body and a dead Pirahã body. Equal bodies, equal names. This logic is still employed today for naming strangers. In killing the enemy, the euebihiai acquired his name. He kept it for himself or transmitted it to other Pirahã.
Ritual and Shamanism

We can classify as belonging to the ritual plane all those actions that place the ibiisi into relationship with the abaisi and with the kaoaiboge and toipe. There are two types of ritual: shamanism and festivals. Both have the intention of placing the social domain into relation with the supernatural domain, but shamanism is the society’s most important ritual, while festivals, qualified as ‘big’ and ‘small,’ are complementary rituals.

Shamanism materializes the interactive process between the ibiisi and the abaisi and/or between the ibiisi and the abaisi, kaoaiboge and toipe. It is through the shaman and his performance that the encounter gains dramaticity and durability. The shaman ‘swaps places’ with the abaisi or with the dead by visiting their respective levels while the latter come to the Pirahã level. The shaman’s performance allows the society to increase and recuperate its onomastic legacy. Shamanism is a possible means for supplying society ‘new’ names. Their insertion in the onomastic is achieved by presenting abaisi names to the ibiisi for these to use them later in naming. Thus, the shaman is the base of the ritual, the only being capable of representing the entire cosmology in each session.

The ‘Big Festival’ and the ‘Little Festival’ have the same reason for existing: placing the cosmos in operation. In Pirahã perception, both rituals are performed with the intention of provoking sounds, making a noise, sufficient for the demiurge Igagai, dwelling on the second celestial level, to hear them, becoming aware of their existence and of the exact place where they are found.

The Pirahã’s worry that they may not being located by Igagai can be interpreted as a fear of a repetition of what is contained in a mythic fragment narrating the destruction of the world. This destruction was due in the final instance to the fact Igagai was unaware where the Pirahã were. It was only through the crying of women, who were alone and without fire, that Igagai was then able to hear and locate them and start reconstruction of the world.

Both rituals are preferably performed during periods of full moon. The full moon is interpreted by the Pirahã as an oven where Igagai toasts his manioc flour. We can surmise that performance of the ritual during full moon works on the assumption that if they can locate Igagai under the full moon, he can also locate the Pirahã."

...

Would you like to try another tribal culture as an example, Sir? The Pirahã clearly don't fit the picture you are trying to paint. They are mythological thinkers through and through.


edit on 3-2-2011 by Student X because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Re SincerelySarcastic

You wrote:

["We have plenty of psychics, channelers, and energy workers, not only do their own experiences offer proof, but they usually find "illusive proof" for what they're experiencing very quickly in ancient traditions."]

Peculiar, I've been looking for such wonderpersons 45 years now, but obviously the wrong places, as I've only met hundreds of individuals with delusions of grandeur or just general delusion.

And I'm even a reiki-healer myself with some success, though not giving 'proof' to anything except that reiki-healing for unknown reasons sometimes functions. It could even be a placebo effect for all I know.

Do you know an author called Peter Moon? He uses synchronicity to its outmost limit, and somewhat beyond. Give him the phonetical version of an innuit word, the approximate value of pi and the mating rituals of dodos and he can prove, that Mars is populated and that both Jahveh and Jesus live there.

In between synchronizing, you may find time to look at formal logic, even though this subject ofcourse is heretic and inhibiting for the free flow of chi-powers and the chakras.



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