Originally posted by JoshNorton
So

1. LUXUS says the Bavarian Illuminati was the inner sanctum of the Vatican (but he can't back that up).
   
2. JohnnyBGood says the Bavarian Illuminati was the Jesuits, at war with the Vatican (but he can't back that up).
   
3. And the guy who actually started the Bavarian Illuminati wrote that ALL organized religion is bad, and doesn't give a rat's ass for either the Jesuits OR the Vatican.

Guess which of those statements I'm more likely to believe, given the historical evidence that exists? (Hint, it's C...)

I don't give a rat's ass what Wieshaupt 'wrote' - Jesuits were famously trained to be decievers and infiltrators of all other beliefs faiths and professions - so nothing any of them say can be believed - period!

The only way to make sense of what happened is to look at what they did, what their mindset and goals are, then look at the outcomes.

I really don't care who infiltrated what or who sacrifices who. I want to know at what level and at what Lodge do you get to go to the orgies and, can I have that as my Mother Lodge???????

Originally posted by LUXUS
Thing is I have looked up the quote in the book you say it comes from and whilst the first paragraph is the same the rest is not? Either both authors are quoting from an older source or someone has been a bit naughty and added material.

I would think it is the latter since Nesta Webster is the oldest available source for this quote and Tsarion added the Duke of Brunswick attribution.

At this point I am unsure of where the additional material comes from. Maybe someone should contact Michael Tsarion.

Most likely Mr. Tsarion's rear end. Perhaps you should contact him and ask why he did not properly cite his sources and see what his reply to you is on this matter.

Originally posted by LUXUS
Adam Weishaupt may have announced the presence of the order but he did not create it.

If you really want to know the definitive history of the Illuminati then you should reading Terry Melanson's book Perfectibilists which as as well researched a book I have read. And before anyone makes a comment, he is not exactly a fan of Masonry, you can read his posts on this website under the screen name fire-in-the-minds-of-men.

Originally posted by LUXUS
Its only when you know where you have come from that you can know what you have lost. You guys don't know where you came from and therefore you don't know what was lost or even who took it.

Which would put you, at best, in the same boat.

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood

I don't give a rat's ass what Wieshaupt 'wrote' - Jesuits were famously trained to be decievers and infiltrators of all other beliefs faiths and professions - so nothing any of them say can be believed - period!

Weishaupt was not a Jesuit. He was, in fact, a target of the Jesuits (which is why he founded the Illuminati in the first place).

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

How could the Illuminati create Masonry when Masonry predates the Illuminati by many centuries?

The Illuminati has existed long before Freemasonry was created. Dr, AW, the organisation's most controversial grand master, made it look like it was new, in order to avoid questions arising about what they have been up to for many centuries. Solomon the wise was its first 'unofficial' grand master when the Illuminati were wandering gnostics and Pythogras after him, was the 'official' grand master and founder.

I apparently have no idea what is going on in the orginization to which I belong, yet you, who is not a member, seems to have information which I do not. Do you see the irony?

Let me be clear. As you know most Freemasons are at the 'bottom' and the real secrets are gained at the 32nd/33rd degree and the 34th,35th and 36th only a handful will recieve it(if you have the right 'contacts')
Most join up in order to become a better person and help their fellow brothers and community, this is a good thing but Freemasonry, when it 'boomed' in America with the independence from Britain everything was going great until the Masters of the OWO bribed many and allowed corruption to set in and thats why many powerful people such as presidents, prime ministers etc are all Freemasons and use it as a 'recruitment ground'. As I stated in my previous post, most lodges do not have this kind of activity nor promote it but some do and thats why you get people on the net posting threads, that they are "taking over the world" a "NWO" etc but you know that your lodge is doing nothing negative but promoting positive actions. Its the minority that gives freemasonry a bad name.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Weishaupt was not a Jesuit. He was, in fact, a target of the Jesuits (which is why he founded the Illuminati in the first place).

AW infact was educated at the Jesuit College in Ingolstadt in Bavaria, and the Jesuits largely controlled the town's university. Thats why people conclude he was a Jesuit. The town was the Illuminati's headquaters at that time.

He was not the founder of the Illuminati but made it appear it was, to avoid the authorities from asking questions.

Originally posted by naeem11111

The Illuminati has existed long before Freemasonry was created.

The Illuminati began in 1776. Freemasonry was already many centuries old.

Dr, AW, the organisation's most controversial grand master, made it look like it was new, in order to avoid questions arising about what they have been up to for many centuries. Solomon the wise was its first 'unofficial' grand master when the Illuminati were wandering gnostics and Pythogras after him, was the 'official' grand master and founder.

The Illuminati did not exist prior to Weishaupt.

Let me be clear. As you know most Freemasons are at the 'bottom' and the real secrets are gained at the 32nd/33rd degree and the 34th,35th and 36th only a handful will recieve it(if you have the right 'contacts')

There are no authentic Masonic rites in existence with 34, 35, or 36 degrees.

Originally posted by naeem11111
AW infact was educated at the Jesuit College in Ingolstadt in Bavaria, and the Jesuits largely controlled the town's university. Thats why people conclude he was a Jesuit.

He was fired from his teaching job at Ingolstadt by the Jesuits because he was a liberal and was teaching anti-Jesuitical doctrines. That's why people conclude he was an anti-Jesuit.

The town was the Illuminati's headquaters at that time.

Not exactly, as the Illuminati did not exist at that time. The town would eventually become the Illuminati's headquarters, however.

He was not the founder of the Illuminati but made it appear it was, to avoid the authorities from asking questions.

He was the actual founder, along with the Baron Adolf Von Knigge.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


The Illuminati began in 1776. Freemasonry was already many centuries old.

As the other guy has said what you are talking about is the BAVARIAN ILLUMINATI, which has been the most controversial of all the other existing Illuminati. If you look at history all you'll get is Weishaupt planning a NWO, him hating religions etc. we can never know what truly took place everything written in history books is just one side of the whole story. Every story has two sides and we can only judge that story if we can understand both sides and understand their intentions.

The Illuminati did not exist prior to Weishaupt.

Again Weishaupt is just another Grandmaster of the Illuminati and the Illuminati has existed long before he was born.

Originally posted by Lateralussicksicksick

As the other guy has said what you are talking about is the BAVARIAN ILLUMINATI, which has been the most controversial of all the other existing Illuminati.

Yes, as the Bavarian Illuminati was the one under discussion. The term "illuminati" was also used in a general sense in the 18th century to describe pretty much everybody who subscribed to the ideals of the Enlightenment, although most didn't actually belong to the various groups calling themselves that title. But no Illuminati groups existed previous to the 18th century, even though, of course, there were still enlightened people around.

If you look at history all you'll get is Weishaupt planning a NWO, him hating religions etc. we can never know what truly took place everything written in history books is just one side of the whole story. Every story has two sides and we can only judge that story if we can understand both sides and understand their intentions.

True, and much nonsense has been written about Weishaupt and the Illuminati. For example, he didn't hate religion, he just believed in separating church from state. He wasn't actually planning a new world order, he was instead trying to get people to understand the principles of democracy, which were revolutionary ideas at that time.

Again Weishaupt is just another Grandmaster of the Illuminati and the Illuminati has existed long before he was born.

And again, there is no record of any groups calling themselves "illuminati" before the late 18th century.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
And again, there is no record of any groups calling themselves "illuminati" before the late 18th century.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.