Violently overthrowing governments leaves violent governments in charge.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by RRokkyy

 

WTF is your deal??

If YOU have no concept of we, then gtf out of here.

I DO AND MANY MORE...

WE ARE THE PEOPLE DAMMIT, AND WE WILL BE HEARD

LOL
What position does "WE" play?

5% of the people think,5% think they think,and the other 90% would
rather die than think.-Mark Twain

reply to post by beezzer


Please take a look at this thread. I have been doing some work putting these facts together. This is prelude to a Mid East take over by the US that we have been planning for over a decade. I quote US CIA Hawk of the War Party as my only source because the man is one of the most thorough and effective chiefs I have ever seen. He is not only a game player and insider but a shot caller. James Woolsey. He calls out Mubarak. He calls out Saudi Royals. And he calls out the whole Middle East and has been calling these days for over a decade. I provide proof with direct quotes and sources. Not trying to hijack just spread the info around regarding this topic. Very Important if you want to see the high possibilty of World War Soon. Very Soon. Flashpoint Egypt. Political SHock and Awe in Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt Jordan and Lebanon and it problably has them shaking in thier burkas. Mullahs, clerics, and Kings; princes... whoever. I think what happened a few day ago has sparked this revolution. Most people think it just went away. But it didn't!!!
We are coming for you using your own people.

Listen guys/gals, we are talking about a VERY serious issue, not some hypothetical scenario or movie idea. Be careful of what you subscribe to and project out into the world, it WILL effect you in ways you may not be aware of, and has the potential to effect others in direct ways as well. I just received multiple U2U's bashing me with curse words and wishing my demise, all because I said a non-violent revolution is historically proven to be more effective.

You do not know me, my intentions, or what I am capable of, nor do you know who is looking in on you from the outside, their intentions, or what they are capable of, so just by you lashing out with obscenities at an anonymous internet poster, or calling for a violent revolution via public outlets, shows a lack of competency and wisdom in oneself. One, who for said reasons, should obviously take no part in the decision making of other peoples lives, or more so in the calling for a revolution of an entire country.

Look, I feel you guys. I am angry and discontent with our society too, in fact my entire adolescent and adult life has been comprised of me rejecting our systems. But from experience, I do know that those of you who are more prone to pick up a rifle and try to shoot your way to freedom, than to conversate and contemplate on viable solutions, have no relevant place in this discussion. That is not a bash or a stab, it is an educated opinion. On a daily basis I am surrounded by discontent and angry individuals who are more than willing to resort to violence to solve their issues, but I am thankfully also surrounded by very wise and compassionate people, who are also discontent with society although in a non-aggressive way. And guess who, out of the two, has changed my community more for the better? Guess who has united the community and helped get their voices heard more? Guess who has more of an ability to sit down one v. one with the Mayor, or Governor, or School District Superintendent, or community business leaders, and first hand deliver the peoples voice and message to them? Guess who has more of an ability to actually jump start a revolution? Guess who in the end is more POWERFUL?


You want change? Get the people on your side! How do you do that? Not with a gun in your hand!

Rockpuck: How did I do in proving your point?

reply to post by indianajoe77


The French Revolution.
And then here's a page from WIKI

I think you'll see that quite a few of the revolutions and rebellions listed on that page refer to the peoples of some area rising up against an empire.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


I'm sorry but to say that anarchists are not violent is simply not so. They may not be openly violent (but a lot of them are), but what do you think will happen when all order and control are taken away? We will all sing kumbaya and hold hands? Get real. The thugs, bully boys and gangs will fill the void and life will be very much worse. How can anyone not see this simple truth? To allow or even precipitate this happening will create violence, hence anarchists are violent.

reply to post by unityemissions


I don't disagree with you in substance, but 2008 did change one thing (though I'm not sure how many people got the message instead of focusing on the object of that message- Obama). It clearly illustrated what our potential is; what we CAN do if we ACT: by showing up to indicate our direction and by voting. It repeated itself in the Nov 2 elections. Even though on a much reduced scale, with not a little cynicism and disappointment in play, we created a second statistically historic change. We CAN. The question is WILL we.

It doesn't take violence. It only (HA. "only") requires awareness, commitment, and follow through. Now if our officials should choose to ignore our dictates, we'd need a Plan B. Imo, that still wouldn't require violence on our part because we have a military and law enforcement who are sworn (and I believe they will, based on my firsthand knowledge) to uphold the Constitution and protect the US- to act on our behalf. Given the nature of those two bodies, our civilian government would have no choice unless they tried to amass martial support of their own. A "military coup" would then be theirs, not ours.

GREAT thread, Beezzer!!

reply to post by unityemissions


"I ask you again, how in the hell are you going to get these people to make a dent of difference to a tyrannical government which will use force, and has at least 70% totally brainwashed, without willing to use force ourselves??"

Those names mentioned previously (who you may actually enjoy reading about) all faced propaganda, bullets and force. People died, people suffered, people sacrificed... this was/is the unescapable reality... but in the end... the people won. They kept their dignity and self-worth... They remained true to themselves and the path of unity/peace/wisdom... and History has, and will continue to, show them as an example for how we are to create a better world.

Q: Will it be harder for a non-violent revolution to succeed in the 21st Century than it previously has been in the past?
A: Most definitely, but so would be a violent revolution.

Q: Which is more likely to succeed right now in America, a non-violent or violent revolution?
A: What is your definition of success? The overthrow of this current government, or the accomplishment of changing what you want changed?

reply to post by beezzer

Personally, I think the title says it all, but if you have any thoughts on the issue, would like to hear them.

The following is a serious response, (my thoughts), for those who genuinely wish to make a change to government, and to do so peacefully . . .

While I fully understand, (believe me), the anger people have in regards to non-peaceful means of changing a government, I believe, (agree), that peaceful means should be used ... and used creatively. My opinion is that each one of us needs to resolve to stop talking about the problems, and start doing something about it . . . hear me out on this. Is this easy? No. It’s hard. It’s hard because you’re going to spend your personal time working relentlessly towards these goals. And right here . . . right here is where most people will simply walk away. You might lose your girlfriend. You won’t have time, realistically, for a, “meaningful,” traditional relationship. This will no doubt put a strain on your marriage--and may end it. Your friends will ask you what in the world are you doing. Believe me ... this will all happen.

But is violence any easier? Is a civil war any easier? And as you, (the op), have stated, wouldn’t this just leave more violent people in charge?

Think about it.

If a person is disgusted with a government, or government policies, & serious in changing a government, there are essentially only two options for change: peaceful means ... or violent ones.

There are many approaches to peaceful change. But, in my humble opinion, one must remember that all people are driven by their ego. We all have ego’s. When, we as a people observe those in power who have gotten out of control, one approach is to shame them ... hit them where they are soft--their enormous ego. Shame them you ask? Yes . . . shame them. When those in power are publicly, calmly, & thoughtfully shamed . . . . by men of honor, this accomplishes powerful things I’m not sure most people have ever considered.

The American mainstream media, for the most part, has not given adequate voice to American hero’s, men of honor, who speak the truth. But I will. And so can anyone else who is determined to do so.

How, exactly, do you shame those in power who need to be shamed you ask? Simple. You honor those who are doing what is right & what is good. You honor them creatively, respectfully, and in the most public way(s) possible so that all will see & hear.

I took this advice myself. And for the past two years, besides my 9-5 job, (from which I took many days off), I completely stopped all my other activities and devoted myself to one thing only--honoring an American hero to whom the mainstream media has not appropriately given voice. I approached a great man who is a speaker for change ... for personal freedom--your personal freedom. Freedom for your kids, and for your grandkids. An American hero in every sense of the word, and more. This man allowed me to film him over a period of one year. I approached him--he didn’t approach me. He didn’t ask for this, I asked for this.

Some may think I wasted my time. I will argue without hesitation that the time spent putting this together was the most worthwhile time I have ever spent, and may ever spend in my lifetime. And, as I stated from the beginning . . . this was hard. Real hard. It involved sacrifice--personal, financial, and the list goes on & on.

It’s time we start honoring those who deserve honor, instead of sitting back & allowing the punks of society to be repeatedly honored by mainstream media. It’s time for men to start acting like men, to stop going through the motions, and to do what is right. Yes, get angry, get real angry, and then do something about it. And do it peacefully.

The following is my approach to changing at least one aspect of our government. Indeed, others may have better & more creative approaches. I certainly welcome those approaches. I am only one man, and this is only one idea. I will be the first to listen to other ideas ... and I might even act on them.

Oh, one more thing, there are some rather uncomfortable folks at the end of this presentation which can be seen during the Q&A session. Specifically, this interaction occurs when, Russ Jones, is responding to a comment made by a former criminal judge. It took me a while to notice what was going on myself. If you watch this film in 1080p, you can see a bit better what is taking place.

Here is the film.



I Found an American Hero . . . So I Made a Movie About Him

"Nonviolence is an intensely active force when properly understood and used." – Mohandas Gandhi (1869-1948)

"If we’re full of hatred, we can’t really do our work. Hatred saps all that strength and energy we need to plan." – Cesar Chavez (1927-1993)

"One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty." – Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968)

"We fought injustice wherever we found it, no matter how large, or how small, and we fought injustice to preserve our own humanity". – Nelson Mandela (1918- )

"I really do inhabit a system in which words are capable of shaking the entire structure of government, where words can prove mightier than ten military divisions." – Vaclav Havel (1936- )

"I have nothing to lose by standing up and following my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail, so what? We’ve been in jail for 400 years." – Muhammad Ali (1942- )

"I believe history teaches us a categorical lesson: that once a people are determined to become free, then nothing in the world can stop them reaching their goal." – Bishop Desmond Tutu (1931- )

"We are constantly being astonished these days at the amazing discoveries in the field of violence. But I maintain that far more undreamt of and seemingly impossible discoveries will be made in the field of nonviolence." – Mohandas Gandhi (1869-1948)

there was a thread here on ATS yesterday
which showed citizen journalist pics
of the protest in London.

One of the protest signs caught my attention
which every government on earth needs reminding
of from time to time.

What Parliament does,
the streets can undo

need I say more?

I think there's always a different answer to circumstances, even violent ones. If every problem could be solved with a warrior, then warriors could sneak and steal and convert and look cute and negotiate and talk and cast spells and do everything god intended man to do. But this o'course is not the case so not every problem can be or should be solved by a fighter. But we get so boxed in that all we see is that we need better guns and more security and bigger prisons. Have to think outside the box. Otherwise, we'll be like the hammer that treats every problem as though it were a nail.

We live in a society that favors warriors and bankers and gangsters and puts us into problems that favor them over others. We're presented with warrior/banker/gangster problems over and over. We're boxed in and every problem looks like it needs a banker or a warrior or a gangster. The problem is to think outside the box requires us to break away from this and to oppose it and to do things in ways that do not advantage us in the boxed-in world. But, ultimately, that's the only way to change it. You can't change it by being a warrior or banker or gangster. It's like playing a game where every group needs a warrior and cleric. If you don't have them, you suffer and hurt. But for those who want to change it, to oppose it and suffer is their only option. Eventually the system will change if they stick around. If they give up or leave the game the problem remains and doesn't go away.

Each country has momentum. They go down a certain road and are stuck in that frame of thinking. Different countries, different strokes. If you're a rogue, you steal the treasure. If you're a warrior, you kill to get it. If you're a diplomat, you talk your way to it. If you're a preacher you convert your way to it. If you're a kid you just have to look cute and do what you're supposed to. If you're a dog, be loyal. If you're a wizard, cast your mighty spell. And so on.

When we all work together we're presented with the full range of problems. No single problem becomes dominant. Every person can get to the top (warrior, rogue, preacher, wizard, etc). If a single problem becomes dominant it's because a) you're not fully working together b) you're framing the problem in such a way that all your advantages are disadvantages. A warrior is not good at sneaking and stealing. Wizards aren't meant to fight with their fists. Rogues don't talk their way to treasure; they sneak and steal. Preachers don't talk their way to treasure; they convert. And so on. There will always be a range of problems, but when the same type of problem crops up over and over you know something is wrong and it's not because your tool isn't big enough.

Pretend you're a wizard for a moment. You pick your targets wisely. You don't put yourself into a situation where you have to be like a warrior. You must use your advantages. Now, you might hire a warrior when you need one. That's fine. But if every or most problems you're presented with require(s) a warrior then you know the system you're boxed in is unfair and essentially broken.

I'm pretty sure throwing butterflies and dandy lions at the tyrants will solve the problem.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


"The only person who believes the system works, is a person who works for the system." -Me (1972-)

reply to post by Oaktree


LOL nice! Here's mine: "No one believes the system works, some of us only pretend to."

The world is imploding right now. Just accept it and die.

This is all fine and good, the erudite discussions on this thread. But, noticeably missing is a discussion about the peoples of the land you intend to free violently or otherwise..have they been asked about this?

And what happens practically, violent over throwers (or otherwise)? How do you keep the lights on? The food on the shelves? The markets moving? The hospitals working? What about the shelters, the elderly, the disabled in their homes...the babies on life support...the trauma teams, the emergency rooms...the police forces, fire and paramedics

Then there is the looters, the drug dealers, the streets, the gangs, the pros, the borders, the opportunists (the big ones, the off shore ones)..what then after this or during this violent overthrow (or otherwise). How will you price the markets, negotiate the trade agreements, assure the debt, manage the sovereignty of the currency? Which countries and in what order will you see first, because they will all be wondering how they can make good from this or even attack and gain control of all or some part of this just newly freed country by violent overthrow (or otherwise).

I am not saying your hearts are not in the right place, I am just concerned about the collateral damage.

I mostly agree with the premise of this thread. Violence almost without fail only breeds more violence. Unfortunately, violence is a part of the human experience because, like it or not, it often works in the short term.

That said, there are alternatives to violence, and we can all hope that one day the human race will collectively be smart enough to figure that out.

Until then, we are stuck with what we have;"Protesters" who look and act a lot more like rioters or looters than revolutionaries with higher ideals. I have a feeling the 'fight fire with fire' attitude is exactly why human history is so bloody and damned.

And so maddeningly repetitive.

reply to post by angelwrangler


All of these are necessary concerns that anyone who is serious about this needs to consider.

Good thoughts!

Originally posted by beezzer
You want change. I want change. Everyone wants change.
When a group(s) violently overthrow a government, doesn't that just leave a violent government in charge? What peace does this new government bring, after dripping blood from it's own sword of "peace"?

The same government that founded the USA came via the violent act of the American Revolution.

The Crusades formed Europe also.

Originally posted by Mr Knowledge
The world is imploding right now. Just accept it and die.

ummm
you first

I'll volunteer to stick around and
turn the lights out for everyone