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US mom kills her teens, reportedly for 'talking back'

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posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


The Chinese common man is not the US common man. In as much as the majority support sharia law in some nations, the same is not true elsewhere.

The common man, in America, would not agree.

That's just ignorant what you did there.




posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 




More or less, religion was the vessel used to make people fear into doing it.


You said it yourself - religion was the vessel used to make people adhere to someones version of morality. It was not THE SOURCE of morality. And even if religion was almost always connected with morality in the past, since renaissance it is not.



Humanism is not much of a case. It's changed in its meaning a bunch of times.


Not much, only a little, and thats natural, since society evolves, so even its knowledge about morality evolves over time.
And compared to changes and differencies between various religious moralities all over the world, humanism is the mainstay of stability.



You are still forcing some sort of ban for a select group of people.


Not select group of people, everyone has to play by the same rules. just like outlawing murder - the same principle. Or better, banning people from working as surgeons without the appropiate qualifications, banning driving without license etc. All of them are forcing some sort of ban for all people or a select group of people.



This right to a good life crap is Utopian and lawed.


Its in the Convention of the Rights of the Child and partly in Declaration of basic human rights. And not providing for the child is a form of child abuse.



Now before you go and say that it's beneficial for the species to make sure only fit parents have kids, you're wrong. Beneficial to the species is as diverse as possible.


That only applies to genetics, and even there its limited, some mutations are clearly harmful. I dont think it would harm our species in any way if there were no hungry, abused and uneducated children on the planet.



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


You are right, it does not matter it people agree with something or not to its morality. I was just replying to your claim that reproduction laws would be surely rejected by a common man.

Again, you are forgetting that objective morality exists and can be determined, even if actual morality used in practice still stems only from the agreement in the society - to create an analogy for you to better grasp it - objectivelly better or worse designs for an airplane exists and can be determined, even if the actual airplane design that will be constructed in practice depends on the agreement of people (and whether or not they can grasp and use the science of engineering and aerodynamics, the airplane would perform better or worse). Equally, the "performance" of a given moral system can be evaluated and compared to others by the science of morality. Whether people choose to ignore it or not another thing.

Sharia Law is obviously inferior compared to western moral systems (increases the overall suffering), that can be easily demonstrated. Some form of reproduction laws may be superior to our current system (will reduce human suffering), thus being more moral. I am not saying in practice they could be implemented, but they may be more moral in theory.


edit on 31/1/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

edit on 31/1/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


The source was its cause, if you will. Like I said, can you show me a society where religion has become nonexistent and morality stayed?

Morality changes all the time to a different society. but it does not evolve. It's just been attached to more logical things.

Humanism started as a church element for belief in utopianism via God. Today it's completely different.

No, it is a select group of people. Your law, though covering all, excludes some because it covers all.

What is child abuse? Unless the child is beaten senselessly for retarded reasons like not coming home on time, or is locked in a cage like an animal, or raped, I don't see how its child abuse. Your definition makes as much sense as the term war crimes. how can you have war crimes when war is a crime? So how can you have child abuse when abuse is sometimes the only way children learn? I know that's how I learned. I was abused by bullies until I learned how to get muscles and brains and fight them on both fronts. Like I said. Extremes that are obviously abuse are abuse. If your hitting a kid for being retarded, he got what was coming to him.

If everything we wanted was supplied, we'd all be slugs. Supply food and water and stability. That's the only role of government. GTFO of everything else.

To use a common term "people tend to sit where there are places to sit"

IE, get out of my life. because you have no rights to how I live it. You cannot have some retarded one child rule. The people of America are not going to stand for it. IE, get out of our lives or die trying.
edit on 31-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by RestingInPieces
 



It all balances out. She created them and then killed them, so it's like she never did anything at all.


My Mom used to say that too! She brought me into this world and she could take me out of it! She was a loving woman, but nonsense wasn't going to fly, and she never needed to shoot me, because she got her bluff in early. Backtalk and arguing lasted about two words and after a smack to the lips, it hurt too much to backtalk. Her favorites were wooden kitchen spoons and spatulas. Those things give quite a smack!



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


The value of reducing suffering is quantified subjectively. While one may consider it a worthwhile goal and it may be popular, it does NOT make it objectively true. While secular humanism may trumpet itself as rational and scientific, by stripping the Divine from morality, it's still based on subjective values and SHOULD statements. The scientific method is not equipped to evaluate claims on the basis of absolute moral "truth" because moral "truth" is illusory. There is no laboratory test, no experiements to run or replicate to confirm moral "truth". It cannot be measured or weighed objectively. Certainly one can study, compare and document different moral systems, but lacking in objective fact, they are no more absolutely "true" than the many different religions which have been created since the human species began.

Objective morality is as much a fairytale as the toothfairy or pretty pink unicorns. If human beings can "outgrow" a need for religion they can do so for other forms of nonsense too, objective morality included. Humanists do reason and logic no favors by embracing such absurdity.



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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She's a typical single mother, a psycho just waiting to happen. Single mothers use the most pharmaceuticals, have the highest incidence of psychological disorders, impose the most drugs on their children, have the most hormonal imbalances because of their drug and alcohol use, and flip out more than any other group. Single mothers should be put in jail before anything like this happens again. If it saves just one child it would be worth it.



posted on Jan, 31 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by EssenSieMich
She's a typical single mother, a psycho just waiting to happen. Single mothers use the most pharmaceuticals, have the highest incidence of psychological disorders, impose the most drugs on their children, have the most hormonal imbalances because of their drug and alcohol use, and flip out more than any other group. Single mothers should be put in jail before anything like this happens again. If it saves just one child it would be worth it.


Are you serious?



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 02:47 AM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


Morals do not exist. Only logic does. Morals are just people trying to say they're God. Mass murder occurs because people become retarded. It has nothing to do with guns. A spook? Good. You ought to be sacred of the people for what you say.
edit on 31-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)


In that case remember the possibility for any holocaust to occur is a two way street.


May history and morals be written by the victor.



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 06:27 AM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


You're not in 1930. Clearly, the presence of technology has changed the world. Take a look around. The common man is overthrowing those whom would cause genocide. People won't listen anymore. because the human being is not a retarded subjugated people any more. We are our own kings now, and the absolute idiocracy of statements and beliefs like your own are washing away every day.

Yes, a holocaust can go two ways. And currently, it's headed for people whom suppress and sacrifice life and liberty for security. No big loss in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 06:30 AM
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This is just a late abortion, not actually murder.



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 06:33 AM
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she is fried.

bitch mom. you guys better have some sort of alarm

on the stairs or your mom will put a cap in yo had!



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Segador
This is just a late abortion, not actually murder.

Basically,its her kids she can do what she wants to do with them.



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


You're not in 1930. Clearly, the presence of technology has changed the world. Take a look around. The common man is overthrowing those whom would cause genocide. People won't listen anymore. because the human being is not a retarded subjugated people any more. We are our own kings now, and the absolute idiocracy of statements and beliefs like your own are washing away every day.

Yes, a holocaust can go two ways. And currently, it's headed for people whom suppress and sacrifice life and liberty for security. No big loss in my opinion.


I guess I am missing what you mean exactly regarding your usage of the term "retarted." Are you speaking of "social ignorance?"


> Sorry, but genocide is happening continuously. The USG is responsible for quite a bit of it world wide.

> Seriously, this is statement you made before quote, "Morals do not exist. Only logic does. Morals are just people trying to say they're God. Mass murder occurs because people become retarded. It has nothing to do with guns. A spook? Good. You ought to be sacred of the people for what you say." It's really hard to interpret what you are saying really.

At the end you state, "You ought to be sacred of the people for what you say."

What is that? Some sort of knuckle dragging mob rule totalitarian general threat? Sounds like something a dimwitted tea bragger would say to a public official at a town hall meeting.



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


aww c'mon lildude,
kid probably don't have the attention span to read any of that.
Gorman91 needs to watch some Stefan Molyneux at Freedomain Radio.

www.youtube.com...

same message:
violence towards children, breeds the horrors of war.
and a lot of those posting here too.
your "cynicism" is going to waste where they are concerned.


Maybe that would chill him out a bit.
On second thought maybe it wouldn't. That dude is too much

edit on 1-2-2011 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2011 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


Retarded as in dumb.

Tea bagger? Yes please.

Genocide is part of war. War is genocide. Ergo, all nations do it. War is to be something avoided. But it happens. And that's genocide.

Point is, the people have guns. And no matter how much you may hate that, it will never change.



posted on Feb, 3 2011 @ 09:55 PM
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...heres an update for those interested in following this case...

www.examiner.com...


“Julie is not emotionally stable,” the source, who did not want to be identified, said. “She has been depressed for over 10 or 11 years. The fact that she snapped was not a sudden thing. Her recent behavior toward her children over the past months has been abusive, paranoid and scary.”

According to an evidence report, an undisclosed amount of medication was found in the Schenecker home when police served a search warrant last Friday. A mixture of that medication, insiders said, is what Julie Schenecker ingested in a suicide attempt she described in a letter found at the scene.

Had officers not conducted a wellness check, Schenecker would have died, carrying out her murder-suicide plot, sources said.

Julie Schenecker has been charged with two counts of first-degree murder. She appeared in court Monday, Jan. 31. She wept during the two-minute hearing.



www.examiner.com...


Tampa officers found Schenecker, 50, in a screened-in porch near a pool. She was unconscious and her clothes were covered in the dried blood of her children.

While police found blood throughout the home, officers also found five spent shell casings and at 15 live rounds--each from a .38-caliber pistol--in the master bedroom.

A handgun and a Smith & Wesson instruction manual were also seized.

Schenecker bought a .38-caliber handgun five days before the shootings.



posted on Feb, 4 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by Wyn Hawks
 


So, once again people around the shooter failed to get them help. People around the situation failed to report the situation to get help for the children. Everybody just sat back and watched what was going on. Then when it ended in a multiple homicide it was, "no suprise."

I hate to say it but I doubt the pills were a true suicide attempt. If she had fifteen more rounds of .38spl she could have done the job.

Instead of focussing on the gun, we need to focus on why we aren't trying to help those around us. We didn't her family or friends try to help those kids. If she was abusing her kids she should have been turned in. In many states if you are indicted for or convicted of child abuse you can not buy a gun.

If people had cared enough to take action this could have been prevented.



posted on Feb, 4 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Wyn Hawks
 

So, once again people around the shooter failed to get them help. People around the situation failed to report the situation to get help for the children. Everybody just sat back and watched what was going on.


...thats not what happened... cps was called in (recently) because the daughter confided to her school counselor that her mother was abusive... cps found nothing that warranted intervention... were they blind?... i dont think so... mentally ill people can be extremely charming, clever, deceptive...


Originally posted by MikeNice81
Then when it ended in a multiple homicide it was, "no suprise."


...lots of people were surprised... few that interacted with her or her kids were aware of her mental issues... this is very common... mentally ill does not always mean that you look demented or behave like a lunatic... she car-pooled neighborhood kids to school... do you really think people would let a known crazy woman drive their kids to school?... i dont...


Originally posted by MikeNice81
I hate to say it but I doubt the pills were a true suicide attempt. If she had fifteen more rounds of .38spl she could have done the job.


...couldve, shouldve, wouldve = trip into fantasy land... she chose her route - thats reality...


Originally posted by MikeNice81
Instead of focussing on the gun,


...but the gun is a valid issue... specifically when she bought it and how she worked the waiting period into her plan, which she left in a note...


Originally posted by MikeNice81
we need to focus on why we aren't trying to help those around us. We didn't her family or friends try to help those kids. If she was abusing her kids she should have been turned in. In many states if you are indicted for or convicted of child abuse you can not buy a gun.


...your focus is way off track...


Originally posted by MikeNice81
If people had cared enough to take action this could have been prevented.


...if you want to blame someone that did know how sick she was and might have been able to intervene in the proper way - her husband is the only valid target...

...if i had the opportunity, i have a few questions i'd like to ask him - but - that has nothing to do with placing blame... like i said in a previous post, it could be that she stopped taking her meds when he went overseas and her illness bloomed...



posted on Feb, 4 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by Wyn Hawks
 


Your own source says this was not something that was sudden. This was an on going problem that nobody had addressed. She was on medication, but even "sources" say that, “(Julie) had become increasingly violent toward both kids... She took most of her anger and paranoia out on Calyx. She thought the girl was turning into a problem child, which was far from the truth. Julie was paranoid and, from what I noticed in the last few months -- delusional.”

She was being violent and obviously somebody besides the counselor knew it. Why was the counselor the only one to step in? Why didn't "sources," and "friends" offer to take the kids in? Why didn't they help get them to a shelter like Boys Town? People knew what was going on in that house and failed to act. I lay the blame on the father as well as the sources and friends. Everybody failed these kids.

Heck the killer's own mother was so worried about her daughter's mental health she sent the cops to see if she had committed suicide. Obviously there were signs there if the mother alerted the cops. Too bad she waited too long. The kids were allready dead when she decided to act.

So, don't tell me "that's not what happened." What I said is exactly what happened. Instead of caring for the life of these kids and the health of their mother people remained actionless. They sat back and watched a person that was violent, delusional, and paranoid grow increasingly abusive. All the time they did not intercede on the behalf of these children. They did not try to help the mother save herself. They all turned a blind eye untill it was too late.




lots of people were surprised


Obviously not her mother or people close to her. Some people in the neighborhood might not have known. That doesn't change the fact that at least a few did. When people say it wasn't sudden, and were worried she would commit suicide, they aren't suprised by the outcome.




do you really think people would let a known crazy woman drive their kids to school?


One of my girlfriends in high school had an abusive mother. She was mentally and physically abusive. However, she lead the car pool, volunteered for the PTA, and often had other kids spend the night at the house. I didn't believe it at first. Then I saw the bruises and heard how her mother talked to her. She reported it to the school counselor. Child Protective Services came out and "investigated." They said nothing was wrong in their estimation.

Three days after the investigation results came in she ran away. When she told me where she was I took her to a shelter for abused kids. I stood in the gap and did everything humanly impossible to stop the abuse. I even ended up getting arrested for contributing to delequency and other false charges. I didn't stop fighting for her though. I filed reports with CPS about my concern. I talked to the sheriff himself. I did every thing in my power for her. She survived because a judge sent her to live with a relative and ordered supervised visitation at the child's discretion. In other words he said she never had to see them again.

(My family backed me and we fought the charges tooth and nail. In the end I got off with nothing on my record. The judge even fined her parent's for filing false police reports and lying under oath.)

Crazy people can be sly and cunning. They often use the tactic that Julie Schenecker used. They will take their children to therapy and push the poblem off on them in an attempt to avoid taking responsibility. That is why it is doubly important for those around them to work to get them help.




but the gun is a valid issue... specifically when she bought it and how she worked the waiting period into her plan, which she left in a note...


All the article says is that she bought the gun with the intention of killing. It does not say that she worked the waiting period in to the plan. Again, if those around the family had taken action she wouldn't have been able to buy the gun.

The gun is not really a valid issue. Look at all the big reports of mothers killing their children. Just as often, if not more so, they stab or drown the kids. There was even a case in California where a woman microwaved her infant. If people are mentally disturbed and determined to kill they will use any tool they can. What this case does show us about guns is something that was allready known more than a decade ago. Waiting periods do not curb violent gun use.




...your focus is way off track...


No my focus is right on target. Nobody intervened to save these kids. None of the friends or the grandmother took the steps to push matters. This was a preventable crime. We need to care for those around us.




if you want to blame someone that did know how sick she was and might have been able to intervene in the proper way - her husband is the only valid target


I blame him because he knew she was mentally defective and left his kids in that situation. Like you say though, it might of started after he left. My thing is he knew that she was not stable and had the potential for violence. If she was paranoid and delusional chances are she might have been schizophrenic. That means she was at a highly elevated risk of hurting herself and others.



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