Chemtrails or Contrails Over Florida

reply to post by Sandbar


Good, OK...at least you're a pilot:

A dry front had moved through central Florida bringing cool dry air. The RH that day was about 40%. I did not bother to listen to the ATIS at PAFB, but imagine that the density altitude was absolute sea level (0=0) with unlimited visibility. With over 300 hours in a single engine high performance plane.....

Private....perhaps you have your Commercial/Instrument? If not, you might soon, if you can afford it.

However, looking at your photos, mostly north-south alignments....those are airliners, on the Jet Airways. Oh, and the RH of 40%? You're talking about at the surface, right?? NOT at 30,000 and up. BUT, since the contrails DID form, then it was high humidity in the upper levels too.

I do have a pretty good knowledge about contrails and atmospheric physics. These were unlike any contrail formation, grouping, and dissipation I have ever seen.

Do you monitor the skies regularly? You have ~300 hours....respectable amount, but still....in the scheme of things, fairly low time.

Having said that, I remain open to the possibility that the phenomena were merely oddly behaving everyday contrails…

Not "odd" at all. Seen many variations....+24 years with a major airline, here. ~20,000 hours. I've seen a lot.


When the contrails get "ragged" like that, is no different than what causes "mare's tails" in cirrus clouds....winds. At altitude.

AS TO the Jet AIrways....you will understand this better than most who post in these "chem"-trail type threads:

(You may know this site already??): www.skyvector.com...

If you have your Instrument Rating already, will be like second nature to you...the IFR charts. You want to look at the ones for the High altitudes (above 18,000). "Enroute High" (or "H" in the button tabs, on the screen).

You can also mouse over the globe icon, labelled "Charts" near the top, for a drop-down menu to choose from.

Also, are you aware of wwwlflightaware... ?

Live (slight time delay, actually, a few minutes) real-time feed from the FAA computers...all airplanes on IFR flight plans. The links to the various charts, approach plates and such, are to the FAA NOS (NACO) style...if you're used to Jeppesen they are only slightly different.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh, and here, too: weather.uwyo.edu...

Upper level radiosonde readings (weather balloons). 300 Mb is about equal to 30,000 feet altitude, for a good average rule-of-thumb to start. There you have, winds, temps, RH, etc. THESE tools, and the flightaware and skyvector links to the charts (showing the actual locations of the Jet Routes) should be useful to give a whole picture.

BTW...you can sometimes, if you time it right (middle of a revision cycle) get some old Enroute charts, from any airline pilot who is going to throw them away, anyway....charts get revised on all different schedules. For your area, if it's Jeppesen, then you want the "High 7/8". It covers the East coast of the U.S., Maine to Floriday.

"High 1/2" is the other big one, from Jeppesen. Rest of the lower 48 states....

Originally posted by Sandbar

Originally posted by RuneSpider
Those are contrails, they are formed from the moisture from the jet fuel being exposed to the cooler air and can form as a "seed" to form clouds around.
In places in the sky where there's no or very little moisture in the air, they don't form or last a very short time. Other places they last, and can stick around for awhile depending on air conditions.

Thanks for the tutorial and you are 100% correct, thus my curiosity of the sky that day. A dry front had moved through central Florida bringing cool dry air. The RH that day was about 40%. I did not bother to listen to the ATIS at PAFB, but imagine that the density altitude was absolute sea level (0=0) with unlimited visibility. With over 300 hours in a single engine high performance plane, I do have a pretty good knowledge about contrails and atmospheric physics. These were unlike any contrail formation, grouping, and dissipation I have ever seen. Having said that, I remain open to the possibility that the phenomena were merely oddly behaving everyday contrails…or maybe not.

You say the relative humidity was 40% that day. OK, that's at the surface. Now what is the absolute humidity at 40,000 feet and -65 degrees C. Here is a saturation curve showing how saturation masses decline rapidly with temperature. www.uwsp.edu... . A jet engine doesn't need ambient moisture to form a trail of ice crystals. It carries its own. A fully fueled Boeing 757 carries 11,500 pounds of hydrogen its fuel tank as dudocane ((C12H26), just waiting to combine with about 92,000 pounds of atmospheric oxygen to make about 50 tons of water. That makes a lot of .4 micrometer ice crystals.

reply to post by Sandbar

I have a private pilot’s license with IFR rating

Really? Then you say this.

What I forgot to menetion was that when I got the binoculars out to look at the aircraft I could see one laying down a "trail" and another one, at what seemed the same altitude, leaving nadda.

Someone like yourself with an IFR rating would surely know the RVSM for FL290. And also know that between FL290 and FL410 is where contrails form.

You claim there was no separation, which sounds kind of funny coming from a pilot.

From the FAA website:

The goal of RVSM is to reduce the vertical separation above flight level (FL) 290 from the current 2000-ft minimum to 1000-ft minimum.

FAA

(d) RVSM in the United States. RVSM may be applied in the airspace of the 48 contiguous states, District of Columbia, and Alaska, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast.

Link

Originally posted by Human_Alien


And there we have it.

Idiot, brainless, senseless and useless people we are for not realizing the difference. They should take us out of circulation (and have a John Wheeler done to us) so we're out of society once and for all.
Crazy zany conspiracy theorists we are. Oh the humanity!

Never, where'd we get our drama and sense of impending doom from?

Originally posted by Sandbar
Any rate, I’ve attached a series of photos I took and would like to see what you all think.

The 'what is it' is called virga - basically the ice crystals forming from the aircraft exhaust are falling to the ground, reaching warmer air and evaporating.

Some of the aircraft producing the contrails (especially the more distant ones) may have been a hundred miles away - remember also that they are several miles above you as well, where air conditions will be very different to those on the ground.

reply to post by Human_Alien


What???

....saw my first turn-around 2 weeks ago!. He did it over the Atlantic Ocean and no one on the beach seem to even notice or care.

Saw the contrail? Or, just an airplane "turn-around"?

You know, there are instances when an "air return" (as it's called) is required, sometime after take-off. Various reasons, usually an emergency (or other incident) requires it. "over the Atlantic" that you saw, could mean something as simple as a navigation component problem, requiring a return....not an "emergency" at all, but dashedly inconvenient!! Over-water flights have certain minimum requirements for continuing....that is just one example, as a possiblity....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

What???

....saw my first turn-around 2 weeks ago!. He did it over the Atlantic Ocean and no one on the beach seem to even notice or care.

Saw the contrail? Or, just an airplane "turn-around"?

You know, there are instances when an "air return" (as it's called) is required, sometime after take-off. Various reasons, usually an emergency (or other incident) requires it. "over the Atlantic" that you saw, could mean something as simple as a navigation component problem, requiring a return....not an "emergency" at all, but dashedly inconvenient!! Over-water flights have certain minimum requirements for continuing....that is just one example, as a possiblity....

If I didn't think you were so serious I'd say you're a regular stand up comedian.

The chemtrail plane I saw two weeks ago ---that made a U-turn--- was about 30-40,000 feet ASL.
Perhaps his 'emergency' landing was going to be upon one of the trails he just laid?
He had his buddies up there too. There were about 4 maybe 5 chemtrail planes. Can't remember because they've been so many chemtrail days lately

But yet curiously.......not one plane today. None. Nilch. Nada.. Not even one making a regular contrail. Pretty quiet for a favorable travelin' day (Saturday). Wonder why?

Contrary to propaganda rhetoric, even though there are more planes in production and flying now-a-days, seeing planes at 10-40,000 feet (especially more than 3 at a time, located in close proximity) is not a common occurrence. Commercial planes are scattered all over the world usually adhering to a regular flight paths.

So when you see an unusual plane-cluster then, something's not right.
And don't buy into this 'airport' nonsense either.
Planes at 10, 20, 30 and 40,000 feet have absolutely NO interest in your airport! They aren't landing nor did they just take off. That's just more jumble-talk to confuse the unconvinced.

Good grief.
But I have to admire your conviction day after day .....trying as you may, to insult the intelligence of most people here at ATS though

Originally posted by Human_Alien

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

What???

....saw my first turn-around 2 weeks ago!. He did it over the Atlantic Ocean and no one on the beach seem to even notice or care.

Saw the contrail? Or, just an airplane "turn-around"?

You know, there are instances when an "air return" (as it's called) is required, sometime after take-off. Various reasons, usually an emergency (or other incident) requires it. "over the Atlantic" that you saw, could mean something as simple as a navigation component problem, requiring a return....not an "emergency" at all, but dashedly inconvenient!! Over-water flights have certain minimum requirements for continuing....that is just one example, as a possiblity....

If I didn't think you were so serious I'd say you're a regular stand up comedian.

The chemtrail plane I saw two weeks ago ---that made a U-turn--- was about 30-40,000 feet ASL.
Perhaps his 'emergency' landing was going to be upon one of the trails he just laid?
He had his buddies up there too. There were about 4 maybe 5 chemtrail planes. Can't remember because they've been so many chemtrail days lately

But yet curiously.......not one plane today. None. Nilch. Nada.. Not even one making a regular contrail. Pretty quiet for a favorable travelin' day (Saturday). Wonder why?

Contrary to propaganda rhetoric, even though there are more planes in production and flying now-a-days, seeing planes at 10-40,000 feet (especially more than 3 at a time, located in close proximity) is not a common occurrence. Commercial planes are scattered all over the world usually adhering to a regular flight paths.

So when you see an unusual plane-cluster then, something's not right.
And don't buy into this 'airport' nonsense either.
Planes at 10, 20, 30 and 40,000 feet have absolutely NO interest in your airport! They aren't landing nor did they just take off. That's just more jumble-talk to confuse the unconvinced.

Good grief.
But I have to admire your conviction day after day .....trying as you may, to insult the intelligence of most people here at ATS though

ww, in my opinion, was trying to give the benefit of experience in flight level operations to those who might not have such experience. At this time there are 14 aircraft above 24,000 feet of altitude in sight of PBI - Palm Beach, Florida. The new separation minimums for US airspace can give the illusion of them being close together. In the en route airspace environment, two aircraft on the same route can be as close as 5 nm from each other longitudinally, if they are within 40nm of a radar antenna. They can be right on top of one another so long as their altitudes differ by 1,000 feet. I can tell you from experience that that looks really close if you are flying one of the 2 aircraft. Of course, that reduced vertical separation requires a special certification of both the aircraft and the crew. The link has been posted before but to identify aircraft at a location can be done by going to flightaware.com... and substituting any airport identifier for "PBI." For a really crowded radar screen, try JFK where right now there are 17 aircraft potentially leaving contrails.
Another reason for a turn-around is a training flight or check ride, where you might take off from Tamiami in Miami and start off enroute for JFK, climb to 30,000 and then head back after demonstrating an emergency descent in your Lear from 30,000 to 10,000 by pulling the thrust levers (throttles) back to idle, sticking the spoilers out, banking to 60 degrees or so and sticking the spiriaing down at redline Mmo until TAS "crossover" and then close to Vne to 10,000.
It's also important to remember that your viewing area for aircraft at 35,000 and higher is over 220,000 square miles of airspace. When enroute, most airliners fly at between 18,000 and 45,000 feet, so that's about a million cubic miles of airspace. So you can fit an awful lot of jets in your viewing volume.

reply to post by Human_Alien


Once again, rather than reading and learning, you just stick your hands over your ears, and shove your head in the sand!!!

The chemtrail plane I saw two weeks ago ---that made a U-turn--- was about 30-40,000 feet ASL.

Well, at least we're making some progress...got you in the ballpark, with the "30-40,000 feet" range.

OK fine. You see, my original statement is still valid...NOT KNOWING the circumstances for the 180-degree turn. Again, any number of reasons I pointed out.

The airplane, at cruise altitude (NOT as ridiculously claimed, making "chem"-trails) was eastbound, yes? Heading....get this now....OUT TO SEA! That is, an over-water....possible extended over-water (key word, there) flight. Once again, IF it had a suspected navigation problem (inaccuracy suspected, disagreement amongst the individual units, or even a FAILURE of one or more units) then it could not continue the flight. Depending on the nature of the flight planned route, and the destination, and the problems encountered (if any). Ya know, it is a mandatory check, performed as one "coasts out" to begin the over-water voyage....cross-checks and verifications of accuracy.

Still, yet another reason? Medical emergency onboard. Other mechanical reasons...hydraulics, engine oil pressure/temperature out of limits, or concerns. Etc, etc, etc....there can be a long list of reasons.

reply to post by 4nsicphd


I've been outside, on the beach, looking east, west, north and south and saw about 8 planes at about 30,000 since 7AM. Of course I saw the obvious ones taking off and landing at WPI and also can differentiate the ones taking position to land in either Ft Lauderdale or Miami.

Those are NOT the planes in question!!
And if people keep bringing that up in discussion--- as an argument ---or to draw attention to them thus diverting our attention away from chemtrail-planes then it becomes redundant, week after week.


We do NOT need a comparison or alternative explanation. We know what we're experiencing. What we don't know is what they are dumping in those trails.


Weedwacker wants us to believe chemtrails/geo-engineering does not exist and that is not only nonsense but an all out lie! And I cannot stand by and let him promote fibs.

Let me ask him, WeedWacker, does geo-engineering exist? I await your answer with baited breath.

reply to post by weedwhacker



... Why would planes dump material that is too costly to treat ? It was just something wrong with the plane or someone was sick

How dare people think planes are dumping @$# up in the sky !?!

Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

I've been outside, on the beach, looking east, west, north and south and saw about 8 planes at about 30,000 since 7AM. Of course I saw the obvious ones taking off and landing at WPI and also can differentiate the ones taking position to land in either Ft Lauderdale or Miami.

Those are NOT the planes in question!!
And if people keep bringing that up in discussion--- as an argument ---or to draw attention to them thus diverting our attention away from chemtrail-planes then it becomes redundant, week after week.


We do NOT need a comparison or alternative explanation. We know what we're experiencing. What we don't know is what they are dumping in those trails.


Weedwacker wants us to believe chemtrails/geo-engineering does not exist and that is not only nonsense but an all out lie! And I cannot stand by and let him promote fibs.

Let me ask him, WeedWacker, does geo-engineering exist? I await your answer with baited breath.

edit on 29-1-2011 by Human_Alien because: (no reason given)

8 planes at about 30,000 feet. Do you realize how bad the human eye is at guaging the distance of anything further away than 20 feet? They measure visual acuity on a 20/20 basis and not a 30,000/30,000 foot basis for a reason. Stereopsis doesn't really work farther than about 20 feet and you have to rely on monocular clues past that. A 757 at 40,000' transects an angle of one fifth of a degree, IF the airplane is directly overhead and IF it is not banking. At 45,000' it is two one-hundredths of a degree less. I defy any witness to attempt to discrimimate an angular difference of .02 degrees at 8 miles with a moving object.

Funny, WW always fails to answer the geo-engineering question.
Why?
Because whatever his answers, his argument becomes null and void.

You see, geo-engineering is not even a hidden operation. It's documented and admitted. So....if geo-engineering is real then WHY can't that be, in part, what we're witnessing?
Now you get it? WW can't not answer yes or no because it defeats his propaganda drivel.


Check it out. They were able to capture the planes model/name




Is the picture becoming clearer????

Geo-engineering explained

Cloud Seeding explained.

Weather Modification explained.

Good luck OP in your quest for truth and be vigilant for those trying to dupe others for reasons yet, unknown.

reply to post by 4nsicphd


Why are you questioning my ability to judge distance? What does that have to do with anything? More dis-crediting tactics?

I know clouds. I know planes. I know the atmosphere therefore, I can judge how high within a few thousand feet, the altitude. You don't know me. You never tested my abilities so, you don't know my batting average.

I guarantee you, meet me one day (if you're in Florida I'll buy you a beer or coffee), we can both look at the clouds. I will tell you within 5000 feet how far they are then....we can check the cloud elevation CAVU later on that night. You'll be surprised at my uncanny ability to judge distance.

I guess it's true about WW having a red phone that rings when a Chemtrail thread goes up

SIGH...
OP:

Chembusters.:

educate-yourself.org...

more on CTs
chemtrails

not selling anything [lest i be accused] you can build your own instructions on website and provided links

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
I guess it's true about WW having a red phone that rings when a Chemtrail thread goes up

As much as I am convinced the majority of us are not witnessing contrails ......I am almost as convinced that your above statement is true. And......he never answers the geo-engineering questions and that alone should speak volumes!

OP is not that far from me (within a chemtrail distance or two) and I know Thursday and Friday (not today though) our skies were very very busy.
But yesterday's chemtrail (for me) was amazing. I have never seen one that long. It was at minimum, 75 miles long.

Last time this happened, at the quantity and frequency its been happening (circa: January 1, 2011) Haiti had their mega earthquake.
Not saying they're related but I can't say, they weren't.

Heads up people

reply to post by Human_Alien

I wasn't questioning your particular ability, just relating the limitations of the human eye. In my line of work (forensics, and particularly aviation forensics) We have to be cognizant of eyewitness limitations. I can't tell you how many times in aircraft crash investigations, where a witness swears he saw the airplane on fire before it hit the ground, there was absolute evidence, like a total lack of downstream sooting, of no fire before impact. the witness sees CRASH, then sees big FIRE with lots of flames and black smoke and the mind plays a trick and temporally conflates the two, truly believing he/she saw a fire before impact when none existed. Just as the theory of geo-engineering is a fact, it is a fact that stereoscopic vision and visual prioperception quits at distances over about about 20 feet. Just as a camera is limited in size discrimination by pixel size and number, the human eye can only reliably resolve to about an arc minute even in perfect conditions. Other monocular clues can assist distance resolution (movement paralax, etc.) but the limitations are a fact.
As an interesting sidelight, if one defines visual acuity as the ability to perceive light, the amoeba is startlingly better than even the hawk. See, people.csail.mit.edu...
And as far as geo-engineering goes, of course it exists. Putting up a wall next to the freeway is an artificial modification of earth landscaping to ameliorate anthropogenic noise and would count. The real question is what the white trails following aircraft are made of. Until someone finds an airplane with tons of chemicals, and tests the chemicals, I'll go for the simpler solution and say water vapor.

reply to post by 4nsicphd


I am half alien which might help explain this talent of mine but I know what you're saying.

There is proof out there only certain people elect not to use it because it's not 'official'.
I hate to keep pasting in YouTube videos but there are plenty of videos. One is an undercover one where this guy is talking to a chemtrail pilot.
Another one, showing the inside of a chemtrail plane.

But because it's not official with an Obama-stamp on it, it gets ridiculed and rejected and that's highly unfortunate.
People need to make up their own minds (when there's semblance and logic attached) and stop listening to others.

Why are there millions if not billions of us saying we're seeing planes unlike ever before leaving trails, flying dubiously and with intent?

Contrails didn't just start happening.
And more planes in the sky is a lame, weak and desperate excuse.

And I think WW doesn't like being challenged because he bedazzel a lot of people with this copy/paste documents. So it appears that he knows what he's talking about.
And his talent to post and panic (when geo-engineering questions are asked) again, speaks for itself.

Find your own truth and if you're comfortable with contrails as the explanation, more power to you!

Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

Contrails didn't just start happening.

When did they start?