Differences between the Moon and Mars with the Earth. (Why there are no aliens from Mars)

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Whats with all the Anti-Mars stuff today?

Mars is not in Orbit around the Earth. The moon is

Orbit is not important suffice to say that Mars' orbit is even more undesirable.

Originally posted by spacedoubtMars has Ice caps. The moon does not

The Martian Ice caps are majorily carbon-dioxide. There is also no free-flowing water on Mars, just as there is none on the Moon, however there is water on the Moon (at least the same hydrogen signatures we detect when scanning the polar caps of Mars) at the Lunar polar regions. Though certainly not as much.

Also while Mars does have hydrologic land-scapes and the Moon does not, those land-scapes were formed billions of years ago.

Originally posted by spacedoubtMars has an atmosphere. The moon does not.

Mercury has a confirmed atmosphere as well, so does Io. What is your point? Mars' atmosphere is 6/1000 that of Earth's. This is just enough to suspend the most pulverized of dust.

Originally posted by spacedoubtMars has evidence of water that stayed in place for quite a long time. There is no evidence of this on the Moon.

Not a long time, not geologically. Most recent evidence of water on the surface was billions of years ago. The Moon's formation was much more rapid and cooler and due to small gravity, lost a lot of moisture early on compared to Mars. However if the Moon were the same size as Mars, most likely it too would have some signs of past water.

Originally posted by spacedoubtMars was not formed from Part of the Earth.

Again irrelevant, since the Earth and Mars are very similar in composition.

Originally posted by spacedoubtMars is more temperate than the moon.

No it is not.

6/1000th of the Earth's atmosphere does not mean it is "more temperate" than a planetoid that has no atmosphere. Mars has extreme temperature fluxuations just as the Moon. Also Mars loses half its atmosphere in each hemisphere seasonally.

Originally posted by spacedoubtBacteria can survive in conditions similar to conditions on Mars, but not the moon.

This is also not true. Bacteria can not survive on the conditions on Mars, lack of organic compounds, lack of useable compounds (sulfur, nitrogen) makes Mars extremely inhospitable.

Originally posted by spacedoubtI don't even know why I am bothering to respond, but it sounded like fun..

Maybe because you think you know what you're talking about?

My "thesis" was that Mars and the Moon are so geologically similar, that you should never compare Mars to the Earth, but to the Moon. Except that thesis went over everyones' head, and some even claimed "there is nothing to respond to".

At least you broke the ice for those who are even less informed.

Originally posted by phreak_of_nature
Mars also shows evidence of past sesmic activity. Also volcanoes. No such things on the moon.

Incorrect.

The Moon has/had both of these, moonquakes and volcanoes (actually firefountains, I'll leave you to discover the subtle difference.) Like the Moon, Mars no longer has active volcanoes.

Originally posted by Tassadar
FreeMason! Great to see ya again!

ummm, Mars is real, and rather different then the moon.
I've seen both from an observatory a friend of mine works at in Colorado.
I also have some friends at NASA who can vouch for Mars being "different" than the moon.

I don't understand this thread...
- Tass

Sorry old friend to burst your bubble, but you have no such friends (in that you should actually ask them, hopefully they are Geologists or they will give you a wrong answer).

I had this very debate with Wendy Calvin (by coincidence she's working on the Mars Rover teams! OH MY GOODNESS) and she confirmed what I am stating here, for all intents and purposes, Mars is like the Moon, nothing like Earth. Except that there is slight hydrological and atmospheric activity (very miniscule) on Mars as compared to the Moon, which leads many such ignorant hobbiests (as the one I just bashed in another thread: Ixaatal or something), to believe there is "hope" that Mars may once have evolved anything more than a primordial diatome or some single-celled organism with no Nucleus.

I also would like Kano, to stick to photography, that seems to be his field and I'll trust him there as I ask him to trust me in my field of expertise.

Let us observe a very basic geologic difference between the Moon and Mars with the Earth.

Volcanic activity.

Volcanic activity on Earth is due to what is now known as "Plate Tectonics".

Volcanic activity on the Moon and Mars are resultant of Magma Plumes only. This means localized and generally the result of meteoric impacts more than internal heat.

For instance, billions of years ago when the Mare Imbrium was formed, the rim became alive with volcanic activity.

On Mars, the "Tharsis Bulge" region is the ONLY volcanic region of any notice and it is most likely a combined result of mantle plumes and the Hellas Basin impact.

Now, continuing with the Volcanic explaination, let us compare the lava of the Earth with the lava of the Moon and Mars. Earth has a myriad of lavas, basaltic and silicic and so forth.

The Moon and Mars only has basalts. This is a very dehydrated rock composed mainly of calcium plagioclase. (Plagioclase is a mineral group formula: (Na,Ca) Al(Si,Al) Si2O8...)

Now let's look at the difference of Earth basalt extrusion (it is an extrusive rock: liquid when it reaches the surface) and Martian, Lunar basalt extrusions.

The difference is formation. The Earth has tectonic activity, plates of crust are subducted and dehydrated forming silicic magmas that are gaseous and "explosive".

Dehydrated magma flows by convection in the mantle and upwelling mantle splits the plate at "divergent boundaries" which release basaltic rock. Mantle plumes also generate such activities as seen on Hawaii.

The Moon and Mars, have only mantle plumes as there is no evidence of tectonic activity. This means that localized volcanism produced dehydrated basaltic lavas and there is no comparison of any other activity to that of the Earth.

So the Moon and Mars share a common geologic process, and also share a vast difference between themselves and the Earth.

RECAP:

The Moon and Mars do not have tectonic activity or silicic volcanism, they have only basaltic volcanism usually disturbed by bolides.

The Earth has a myriad more voclanism and thus more complicated system which produces the over-all "unifying theory" if you will, that is plate tectonics.

Do you doubters scoff now? Do you think you can play hardball with me?

Kano, is this good enough to keep the thread open?

Next Episode: Mountain formation

Differences of the Moon and Mars with the Earth compared through formation of mountains.

Simply put, mountain formation is the process of geological activity. Simply put. Mountain formation can also be the result of a much different act, that of a meteorite impacting the planet//planetoid. For instance the Moon and Mars share common regions. Plains and highlands. The highlands are created by meteoric impacts such as Mare Imbrium (best observable instance) and the Hellas Basin. Both are rimmed by "mountains".

The Apinine mountains on the eastern rim of the Mare Imbrium is most readily observable.

How does this form of mountain creation differ from that of Earth mountain formations?

Well, the most easily observed difference is that of the Rocky Mountains (Basin and Range province) and the Appalachian Mountains or Hymalayan Mountains (couple examples of folded mountains), as compared to the Apinines and the mountains of the Martian craters.

The basin and range province in western North America is an amazing event, most of you probably only know of one type of mountain formation, folding, and you probably don't know its name, but you know of it. Basin and ranges are created when crust "extends" under tensional pressure caused by divergent faults, in the case of the Rockies the fault is currently somewhere around Denver, Colorado.

To give you an idea of what extension is, before the extension in that region, the coast line was somewhere near Lake Tahoe and Reno.

Now it is of course, several hundred miles further west.

This extension causes a fracturing that results simply in basins (long valleys) and ranges (long somewhat parallel mountain ranges).

This activity is not present on the Moon or Mars, except in the sense of mantle plumes.

How this differs is that crustal extension in a plate boundary results in a basin and range system running along that boundary. With a mantle plume, such as the Tharsis Bulge, the extension does not necissarily run with any relation to the extension, such as Valles Marineris, which is the result of crustal deformation by the mantle plume under the Tharsis Bulge, not by hydrologic activity as some of you might suspect.

Mars nor the Moon share any common trait with crustal extension along any divergent boundaries.

Folded mountains, the name for what you probably consider as the only way mountains form, two plates smashing together. Depending on what types of plates will depend upon the composition of the mountains. Folded mountains easily put are the same as taking a handkerchief and pushing the ends together, creating folds.

There are no such mountains on the Moon or on Mars.

RECAP:

The Moon and Mars share in crustal deformations with the Earth, but differ in limitations of what types of deformations (only that of mantle plumes), while the Earth has divergent boundaries to cause extension.

Only the Earth has folded mountains.

Next Episode: Basins.

Intermission:

I would like to point out my disappointment that this thread would receive 18 posts in several hours, but now that I am back and "returning fire" suddenly no one is willing to take-up this challenge.

Perhaps indeed it is all beyond your willingness to explore, as you would rather believe Mars to be a "dead Earth" than to be a "slightly more alive Moon".

Originally posted by FreeMason
Volcanic activity on the Moon and Mars are resultant of Magma Plumes only. This means localized and generally the result of meteoric impacts more than internal heat.

Wrong, Olympus Mons (highest mountain in solar system) has formed same way as Mauna Kea/Loa, crust has just stayed in same place allowing mountain to grow very big.

Moon's "mares" have formed when big impacts completely crushed crust of moon causing magma to fill holes.


volcano.und.nodak.edu...
volcano.und.nodak.edu...

Uhh hello, I said that Hawaii was an example of Earth mantel plumes. God do none of you people know the simple ability to "read for maximum content"? I should not have to spell things out for you as if you were 3rd graders.

And I have not discussed Lunar Mares and Martian Basins yet, that is my "next Episode". Thank you for bringing up something completely different from the only two things I have so far discussed.

E_T, do forgive my outburst at you, but I was expecting as good a reply to my excellent posts. Instead I received...a poor attempt or a bit of confusion, probably the latter. Hopefully the latter.

What you are stating is that I was wrong, but you are incorrect in that statement. We are both right in that the Tharsis Bulge and the Hawaii Volcanoes are examples of "Mantle plumes".

I stated this, you merely missed the fact that I mentioned Hawaii was similar to this. If you look at the Recap I do not state that Mars and the Moon have something Earth does not "mantle plumes" I state they both have mantle plumes and that the Moon and Mars are both the same both in mantle plumes and common differences between them and the Earth. (Lack of other forms of volcanism.)

Plus, everybody knows that the moon is made out of cheese and that Robin Williams lives there

I thought that Robin Williams was from Ork

Originally posted by FreeMason
Kano, is this good enough to keep the thread open?

Perhaps you could go back and edit the title of the thread to "Mars much more like the Moon than like Earth" or somesuch. So it doesn't look like such a random trollish kind of statement. Which it clearly isn't judging from your later posts.

Yes Mars is more similar to the moon than Earth. But to say Mars is the same as the moon is simply flawed. There are obviously still massive differences between the Moon and Mars. Plus we know Mars could have supported life as we know it. While its highly unlikely the moon ever could have.

EDIT: Or maybe a better thread title would be 'Similarities betwen the Moon and Mars'. As this seems to better cover the intent of the thread.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by Kano]

I realize the mistake of the title now, only after OzChris pointed it out. I just slapped it down, didn't realize what it was literally saying haha.

Although with how much attraction it has brought this thread, maybe in a way it was a blessing in disguise. But now I am growing sick of these stupid Robin William Comments.

I have just presented a lot of raw and hard science OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. And I don't appreciate it being abused by ignorant fools with 300 points who can not properly put a sentence together if they tried.

Sadly I can not "edit" anything for some reason. So someone else would have to change the title.

"Mars is like the Moon not the Earth" would maybe be the best title.

[EDIT] Never mind I can edit now, they fixed it...I shall figure out something for the title.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by FreeMason]

While Mars is currently probably incapable of supporting any active life forms which is similar to the moon in that regard, what is more interesting is why Mars has lost the atmosphere it at one time had. Mars had a molten core like the Earth, but its diameter and weight were smaller and it eventually lost it. The Moon is so small it probably only had a molten core for a very short period astronomically speaking. Mars's molten core supported a magnetic field at one time like Earth has currently, which is what protects an atmosphere from being erroded off by solar and galactic winds.

Now looking at possibilities in the future:
To turn Mars into an open surface inhabitable planet one would/should create a magnetic field first, either by re-moltenizing the core or surface magnetizing the top x number of miles of the surface of the planet. You probably would have to import some atmospheric gasses from one of the gas giants like Jupiter. A similar project might be possible with the Moon too.
Venus on the other hand still has a molten core and magnetic field, there one would probably want to replace the current atmosphere with one suitable for Earth type organisms and maybe get some more agreeable surface minerals.

Another project might be to bump Titan out of its orbit around Jupiter and move it to a close to 1AU solar orbit.

These are all projects for future generations if they find them interesting.

I checked from one book I have and seisometers left there in Apollo flights show that "moonquakes" happen 700 to 1000 kilometers under surface (in Earth they're much closer to surface in general) and are triggered by tidal forces caused by earth's gravity because most of them happen when moon is in its closest or farthest point of orbit. Same data shows evidences Moon's core is at least partially molten.
Book is made on 1990 so this is newer data suggesting that moon's core is really partially molten and also much smaller than expected.
www.spacedaily.com...

We don't same data about Mars so it would be interesting to get seismographic data also from there.

But there's seems to be evidence that Mars' core is big and also at least partially molten.
www.planetary.org...

Here's nice comparison of "basic features":
www.planetary.org...
Very nice size comparison of Olympus Mons and Hawaii.
pubs.usgs.gov...

Forms of volcanism in Mars and Moon.
www.geology.sdsu.edu...
www.geology.sdsu.edu...

Well while the previous post is a bit off subject, the point that both Mars and the Moon lack a Magnetosphere is an important one for many reasons. That is another similarity between the Moon and Mars, and a difference of both with the Earth.

Freemason,

I think the problem is you speak in absolutes, like you've been there or something.
Truth is, it's pretty hard to prove a negative, although you are working hard at it.

Part of my responses were to your "foot stomping" statement that Mars and the moon were the same. You dismissed them as if I was using them as proof of life or something.

By the way there IS evidence of hydrological activity in Some photos from
Mars Global surveyor.
Like These.

And up to this point, there has been no real study of anything below the surface of the Martian Soils. A couple of scoops by the Vikings..And
Some mapping from Space, thats about it. Nothing to argue about there, YET.

What do you say about the possibility of Martian life underground?
1 foot under, 100 feet under, a MILE under. What do we know about these environments? Are you SURE? What's under there?

Oh, I almost forgot. nanu-nanu

[edit on 13-7-2004 by spacedoubt]

[edit on 13-7-2004 by spacedoubt]

Perhaps I should say not a deep or sufficient enough molten core to support a magnetic field.

Mars has large dust storms a result of wind on mars the moon has no such activity. The footprints of Neil Armstrong are still there if a impact did not disturb them.

Mars also has a day length almost the same as here on earth the moon does not.

It's sure that currently Mars doesn't have much magnetic field and is now similar to moon in that aspect but in past it might have magnetic field with it even changing direction like Earth's one.

www.planetary.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...

Yes E_T but you are also talking about billions of years, 3 billion to be exact, the Earth has had an active geo-magnetic field for its entire life, Mars has had none for most of its life.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Mars has large dust storms a result of wind on mars the moon has no such activity. The footprints of Neil Armstrong are still there if a impact did not disturb them.

Mars also has a day length almost the same as here on earth the moon does not.

These are virtually non-existant factors.

The length of day doesn't matter to life when a few seconds of exposure to the sun will destroy all life.

The atmospheric erosion is so minimal on Mars that it takes thousands of years to build small sand dunes. This is why you could stand in the dust storms which are 300 mph sometimes and not even be hurt. The atmosphere is so thin, that wind-chimes will not move in hurricane-force winds.

This difference is not considerable to be more earth-like than moon-like, rather Martian atmospherics is more of its own "uniqueness" apart from both the Moon and Earth.