Saturns Moon Spewing water...

The cassini probe has shown some remarkable ingormation about the chaances for life on one of Saturns moons.
This is better presented by the article here......
science.nasa.gov...

The amazing possibility of a habitable outpost of earth in our solar system,(besides an arid mars)
Is this small moon of saturn.
The warmth from within this moon may be sufficient to support a space station, and even perhaps a small colony of some type,(maybe farming the ocean or something like getting the minerals out of it etc)
The next door partner moonlet is a barren rocky desolate place, but this unique ocean filled moon may offer some hospitable place to observe the further planets from a closer.vantage point.

is this the press conference stuff that was scheduled for today?

I seriously doubt these conclusions for two reasons.



First:
From the article we have this so-called "soda drink under pressure" analogy. Now I understand that gas or liquids under pressure, when released, do have some velocity. But they do not have escape velocity. Maybe if the moon weighed as much as Apollo 13 did, it could see it. But Enceladus weighs a whole lot more than that.

"Have you ever been sprayed when you popped the top of a soda can?" asks Matson

The math is not even close to supporting a conclusion of this kind.

Escape velocity from Enceladus is approximately 534 miles per hour.

A liquid or gas under sufficient pressure to be released at this speed would gouge out a massive hole in a very short period of time.



[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3dd67dacbd33.png[/atsimg]




Second:
Notice the illumination on the "jets" in the photo above. Particularly the "Jets" coming from the shadowed side of the moon. By analyzing the spectra one can make a determination of the content.

In initial flybys, Cassini's instruments detected carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and various hydrocarbons in the plume gasses.

I'm no chemist, but this sounds a lot more like dirty air, than dirty water to me.



In conclusion I maintain my position that there remains zero verified evidence of a single drop of water anywhere in the Universe besides our own planet.


David Grouchy

Grouch....did you get the part about detecting the salts in the particles?
This is what they base the water ocean under the rust conclusion on...
The heat provided by friction of the whole interior of the moonlet being stressed by saturns heavy gravity....
Should be able to work out how hot that would be by math alone no?
Mayb theres not enough flex to provide sufficient heat?
Another thing, hydrocarbons?and these are created how?
By the saame flexion forces down inside the moon?
is that abiotic oil on the moonlet then?
If so does that confirm the abiotic production of hydrocarbons then?
The chances of salt water ocean are still a % grouchy, maybe we could eliminate them but it would take more than that i think....
by the way the water doesnt reach escape velocity it drains back into the resevoir....

Originally posted by stirling
Grouch....did you get the part about detecting the salts in the particles?

I got the part where they were surprised that the salts were not there.

Going to reread it.

BRB.


David Grouchy


quick quote from the article as I'm reading...

But there were problems with this theory. For one thing, where was the salt?

"It wasn't in the plume gasses where we'd been looking for it," says Matson. "Instead, sodium and potassium salts and carbonates were locked up in the plumes' icy particles.* And the source of these substances has to be an ocean. Stuff dissolved in an ocean is similar to the contents of these grains."

Yeah,
this part sends up red flags.

My scepticism translates this to say "we found salt in the ice"

That's a contradiction.
Salt and Ice don't mix.
Aditionally Sodium is not salt. Potassium and carbonates are not NaCl either.

The absence of Chlorine is telling.


David Grou8chy

Originally posted by JustinIowa
is this the press conference stuff that was scheduled for today?

The press conference dealt with the oldest galaxy ever seen by Hubble.
www.space.com...

Anyway interesting Star+Flag from me, I can't help but think of another moon that also did the same thing I believe it was Jupiter I think? Or perhaps it was Saturn and for some reason I just have Jupiter on my mind.

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
In conclusion I maintain my position that there remains zero verified evidence of a single drop of water anywhere in the Universe besides our own planet.

Doesn't the Monahans meteorite, amongst others, count as evidence of water outside our planet?

When they cracked open the rock they found tiny, purple spots of halite - crystals of sodium chloride, or table salt - along with minute amounts of briny water.

Others who have looked at the research, which is published in the journal Science, and have satisfied themselves that the rock was not contaminated when it fell to Earth, describe the discovery as "astonishing".

What this discovery suggests is that water was also flowing on the asteroid from which the meteorite came. Either that, or the water was carried onto the asteroid by a comet or some other object carrying water.

news.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Hydrogen and Oxygen combine into water, the rest can just be dissolved in it.

It exits as a gas because it enters into a vacuum and vaporizes instantly.

Originally posted by davidgrouchyAditionally Sodium is not salt. Potassium and carbonates are not NaCl either.

The absence of Chlorine is telling.

A salt is any molecule that is formed from the combination of positive and negative ions. Sodium can form many salts that don't have any chlorine. For instance, using only the elements they list in the article, you could have sodium azide (NaN3), sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), and sodium nitrite (NaNO2), among others.

Nobody said it was the same kind of water as earth ocean water....ie different salts
Secondly,the moon has water,it was announced this year sometime...under the pole?
Mars may also have water, as far as i understood it there was an anouncement about that a while back too.
Not sayin theres oceans of it.
But again there should be cometary ice left from collisions with the moon....
Though mars may have too thick of an atmosphere for water to make it to the ground that way....(do martian meteors burn lik ours?they probably couldnt without oxygen....maybe thats why there are so many craters....the falling debris wont burn up.

[quoteWhat this discovery suggests is that water was also flowing on the asteroid from which the meteorite came. Either that, or the water was carried onto the asteroid by a comet or some other object carrying water.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Water flowing on the asteroid it came from?

/sarcasm

Riiiiiight.

/sarcasm off


David Grouchy

Originally posted by Romekje
[Hydrogen and Oxygen combine into water, the rest can just be dissolved in it.

It exits as a gas because it enters into a vacuum and vaporizes instantly.

Exactly.
As a gas, maybe, but not a single drop has been found anywhere other than Earth.

Even then I haven't seen any evidence of it in gaseous form.

And remember this, when ever the phrase [color=gold]Ice is used
it always refers to some compound other than H2o
usually methane or some other substance.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by davidgrouchyAditionally Sodium is not salt. Potassium and carbonates are not NaCl either.

The absence of Chlorine is telling.

A salt is any molecule that is formed from the combination of positive and negative ions. Sodium can form many salts that don't have any chlorine. For instance, using only the elements they list in the article, you could have sodium azide (NaN3), sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), and sodium nitrite (NaNO2), among others.

Thank you for that clarification.
Exactly.
There is a huge difference between what chemistry means by salt as a category (similar to acid or base) and what the average reader thinks when they hear "salt" (usually table or sea).


David Grouchy

Originally posted by stirling
Secondly,the moon has water,it was announced this year sometime...under the pole?

This has been verified?
By water, do they mean liquid?
Or is this cleverly vague language used to disguise the fact that reflected infrared light detected trace elements of O3 and several very large leaps of the imagination created the "official" statment of "water found".


David Grouchy

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
[quoteWhat this discovery suggests is that water was also flowing on the asteroid from which the meteorite came. Either that, or the water was carried onto the asteroid by a comet or some other object carrying water.

news.bbc.co.uk...


Water flowing on the asteroid it came from?

/sarcasm

Riiiiiight.

/sarcasm off

David Grouchy

Let me color some words as well

Either that, or the water was carried onto the asteroid by a comet or some other object carrying water.

If I understand correctly, there are only two possibilities of how water droplets got caught in meteorites.

You seem to base your fixed ideas on mid-nineties scientific premises. Some recent discoveries might have updated current knowledge, not?
Anyway, this topic isn't my discipline of priority, so I'll stay out from here on. Have fun.

reply to post by stirling


If you look close enough at photo 3, it appears NASA has twicked out parts which now appears to be canyons. I used 2 different pairs of glasses to be sure.

reply to post by stirling


I read a lot about colonizing other planets, such as Mars, and other possible bodies that can support life. However, we screwed up this planet enough as it is, and history will only repeat itself if we colonized another planet. I'm all for the scientific study approach, but for colonizing, farming, etc. I think we need to fix the planet we live on first before being entrusted with another.
Just my opinion

reply to post by stirling


The "water" isn't coming from an ocean, it is coming from the chemical signature of a plasma discharge.

The "heat" isn't coming from volcanic activity either, it is coming from a plasma discharge.

The jets are plasma plumes and they have absolutely nothing to do with underground oceans.