A question for all the "2012" non-believers

reply to post by ThreeDeuce

Why weren't you attempting to disprove 2012 BEFORE the Y2K scare?

Because I was in middle school at the time and had never heard of the 2012 Doomsday hypothesis.

And, before you completely disregard teachings of Sumer, remember these writings encompass many stories that fill out our Chrisitan Bible.

All the more reason to discard them since the Bible is filled with fables and stories many of which we know did not happen or have been greatly exaggerated and depicts a murderous evil God who enjoys smiting people - and talking snakes of course. The connection is mainly between Babylon and the Bible NOT Sumer.

that makes THREE prolifent societies that warn us about this day upcoming.

All of these societies were primitive. Our own current technologically advanced society thought the world would end in the year 2000. If we can be fooled so easily what makes you think that those ancient prophecies have any merit?

The antiquity of something DOES NOT lend it credibility.

So, you want to discredit all of 2012 theory because of your own personal theory that the end of their calendar means NOTHING...........

I want to discredit 2012 because pseudoscientific con-men are using it to prey upon the gullible, fearful and paranoid. I want to discredit 2012 because people are being tricked into wasting millions of dollars on bunkers. I want to discredit 2012 because right now there are people so convinced that the end is inevitable that they are considering killing themselves AND THEIR CHILDREN to avoid the agony of the apocalypse. It has nothing to do with the Mayans. Don't pretend for a second that the pseudoscientific hypotheses about planet X, brown dwarfs or geomagnetic reversals have ANY correlation to the Mayans - they don't. All of these competing ideas about 2012 are bunk, there has never been one shred of scientific evidence in support of any of these doomsday scenarios.

Or, its just easier to believe that everything means nothing, and you can stick your ostrich head back in its hole.

It's nice that you can sit there and tell us skeptics what we believe. I'm going to send you a special message come December the 22nd 2012.

I contend that the Mayans thought this was a very important calendar.

And this means what? So the Calendar had cultural significance right? And somehow that means that the world will end on 2012? The practice of blood letting was once thought to be very important to human health. I guess Medieval surgeons were right

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
On one side of the 2012 argument are the one-dimensional amoeba people that think reality is everything they can visually see & nothing else. They do not believe in the possibility that time is relative or that particle information travels infinitely faster than the speed of light (both of these are proven to be true) or that there could have been ET intervention etc. (things which explain the Long Count Calendar's purpose). I hate to say it, but people who 'doubt' anything will occur next year simply have such thoughts from not researching enough (will explain below).

On the other side are religious fanatics trying to make 2012 fit their religious paradigm (like a few in this thread, no offense) that don't actually do much research. They just blab crazy nonsense w/o backing it up.

On the outside are researchers. People that look at it objectively. People like myself & I have to say, there exists evidence 'something' is very likely is going to happen next year.

The Hopi predicted a "Blue Star Kachina" will rise in the horizon, signifying the end of an age of mankind (& their previous 8/9 signs have already passed). How coincidental is it for a comet (comet Elenin) to come from nowhere and be headed right for Earth? It keeps getting closer & will definitely be very noticeable and very blue by end of this year. files.abovetopsecret.com...

The Sumerian, as someone mentioned earlier, have an end of mankind theme too (no year in specific however). Now here's something fishy to think about...both the Sumerian & the Hopi, in their past, were in contact with a white "star brother" named "Pahana". Both had the exact same name for him & description & in both cases, Pahana promised to return. This is statistically near impossible to be a coincidence.

The Long Count Calander predates the Mayan people by 1,000 years & they never claimed they built it (archaeologists, being the simpletons they are, pinned it on them so nobody would ask questions). Who do the Maya say built it? They say "the men of wisdom". If you have every studied this Long Count, you'd tell it does not jive with what a man, 5,000 years ago, could have constructed. This thing is a programmed astronomical MACHINE. www.latinamericanstudies.org...

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With astronomical fundamentals not learned until 4,000 years later by Kepler....In 3,000 BC men were still using clubs to battle & just being introduced to a new complex tool called a "sword"! No man could have created this at that time. All the world's best modern astronomers together would not be able to create the calendar w/o use from computers or extremely advanced software.

Given all the recent government disclosure going on (Ecuador, Brazil, Vatican, Mexico, England, etc.) of ETs & UFOs (& the recent meeting in Saudi Arabia of world business leaders to discuss them), I would not think it's impossible that there was interaction in our ancient past. As the OP said, the calendar serves functions of evolution or advancement (gestation, etc.) & the end of the calendar does too.

What else, astronomically, is on the agenda for 2012? You're looking at a 'super solar storm' with capability of sending us back to the stone age (NASA has recently pushed the date to 2013, as many scientists predicted, to stave off fear) & in 2012 we complete a 26,000 year cycle as the OP stated.

Here's a Mayan Elder's words for 2012. The machine's end represents "the return of the men of wisdom."

I -love- this post.
You have, more or less, came to the same conclusion as the "father of the atomic bomb" (physicist Robert J. Oppenheimer) head of the Nazi rocketry program (Dr. Hermman Oberth) the leader of the space age (Dr. Verner Von Braun) master literary researcher & scholar (Joseph Campbell) & first physicist to grasp the power of the atom (Frederick Soddy). They were all convinced mankind was in interaction with ET intelligences in our ancient past after much research. Anyone trying to argue with your points would be calling all of them ignorant.

Congratulations, you are exceedingly far more open minded & informed than anyone in this thread (expected from a fellow Mason though considering what we discuss behind closed doors).

PS Titen-Sxull your post gives way to being from someone lacking much knowledge. I could discredit every bit of your entire post, but it hardly seems worth the effort.

For what it's worth, here's my theory on the Mayan calendar and 2012.

First, the Maya didn't exactly invent it, they inherited it from the Olmecs, most likely. No one's sure where the Olmecs got it from.

Second, the Clovis culture and the megafauna disappearred about 13K years ago, most likely due to a comet impacting or breaking up over the Luarentide Ice Sheet.

Now, if you will allow me to postulate a few assumptions for the sake of argument, I will lay out my theory.

1. "Hi-tech", "advanced culture" and other such terms and measures can represent very different types of technologies, and lack of one type of tech doesn't preclude having another. A people who've spent countless generations studying the sky might be considered hi-tech if they had a way to store, collate, analyze and predict astronomical data.

2. Let's assume that the Clovis culture was hi-tech in astronomy and math.

3. Let's further assume they could see what was coming to hit them early enough to have the time to figure out what it was and what it would do.

4. The early warning was sufficient to save core groups who retreated to deep caverns (many NA creation myths involve crawling out of a cave, navel, etc).

5. The survivors dedicated themselves to studying the skies to see if it would happen again.

6. Eventually they discovered that the earth passed through a dangerous bit of space on a very long cycle, one too long to strust to voice, song, legend or ritual.

7. Faced with the problem of how to warn distant descendants of their danger, they devised the only thing that might last through the millenia: a calendar, hoping that the mere fact that in ends would be a sufficient "head's up" to get people to watching the skies at the right time to get a forewarning of potential disaster.

So I think the calendar is sort of a message in a time bottle, warning of a long-orbit fairly dense cloud of space debris, the peak of which will occur when it ends.

Looking at the records of the American Meteor Society, I could be right: fireball incidence in 2005 was 1.28 fireballs a day, last year's average was nearly 3 per day, and so far this year it's running at nearly five a day.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

QUESTION: So, why do you blatantly disregard the only major date that all three of these ancient and wise civilizations warn us about?

reply to post by ThreeDeuce


Just because civilizations are ancient does not mean that their predictions are correct.

Is there any actual evidence that these civilizations had access to vastly more wisdom than our modern society?

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
Y2K was a current human made scare that was only brought about because computer programmers were too lazy to write dates in 4 numeric values, and only wrote them in 2. Many people did not think the world was going to end, just that our economic and banking system would fall. Y2K hardly parallels 2012 prophecy.

Funny, there was plenty of prophecy predicting doom in the year 2000, period. Didn't happen (unles, I guess, you want to count the election results of that year). Nothing will happen in 2012, it'll become 2013, then 2014, and people will find some reason to brit shicks about the year 2020 or something.

I would think a religious text that a majority of the world believes strongly in its authenticity would have some sort of credibility, yes...

Well, you're wrong. A document that tells us that otters are a sort of fish and that Babylon will be populated by dragons and satyrs isn't that "reliable" at all.

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You caught me. I did mean Prolific, one grammar mistake in all of my writings, whereas I'm not going to even point out the gross errors in the next sentence you wrote.

I wasn't trying to be a spelling nazi, I just really didn't know what you were saying.

If you not thinking the Hopi civilization was important enough to give credence to their prophecies, maybe you should think of what future civilizations will think of us, or just go back and read my "small-minded" comment again.

Friend, I don't lend credence to any prophecies, period. My point is that, in terms of scale, the Hopi are pretty far from either the Maya or the Sumerians.

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Doesn't sound all that dramatic? According to the Maya, the last world was Destroyed at the end of the last Long Count. Nope, total destruction isn't dramatic at all.....

And according to archaeology, geology, paleontology, dendrochronology, and lots of other -ologies that I'm sure to be leaving out, the Maya were full of it on that count. Seriously, I give a lot of criticism to people who think ancient civilizations couldn't stack rocks without outside help, but that doesn't mean i'm going to pretend these civilizations were omniscient superbeings, either.

The Maya made some stuff up in their version of a creation myth. Pretty much every culture made stuff up for that purpose, since, unsurprisingly, no one was there to see it all happen.

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The idea that a civilization as astrologically advanced as the Mayans would devote so much effort and knowledge into developing a calendar, and then you regard it as "inconsequental", and having no meaning is indeed "small-minded" and unintelligent in my book. Do they Mayans seem like a people who would waste all of their time on something frivilous?

Considering all the mind-numblingly ridiculous things people worldwide do for their religious beliefs? Yeah. The Maya also murdered people to please their gods. Christians used to believe bathing to be a sinful act. Traditional Buddhism maintains that to ejaculate during coitus causes you to lose a portion of your soul, and that female orgasm is a form of vampirism, best avoided.

So do I think the Maya would chalk up a calendar system that had no real meaning outside of occasionally giving them a religious holiday? Sure do!

The Sun is almost reborn, as the precession of the season begins again. You have to understand that to ancient people, braving through the winter and seeing the coming of the spring was very akin to rebirth..

Ever been to south Mexico in December? Winter / Summer is a conceit of the far northern hemispheres, where seasons go to extremes like that. You don't have winter or summer in Chiapas or Belize; you have hot and moist, and hot and dry.

Of course these people would have noticed that days vary in length through the year (again, not by much at their location, but noticable.) However, it lacked the cultural significance ascribed to it by Europeans, northern Asians, and North American Indians, simply because the chance wasn't that dramatic. it was a measuring system.

Do not forget that every calendar is Astrological, and not purely mathematical. So, it is not merely math or numbers, but is how we progress over time and through the solar system.

Astrological? Do you mean astronomical? Very different words

And yes, they are mathematical. The movement of the sun is the major factor in the Gregorian / Julian (and Mayan) calendar, while many others are lunar. Some follow the constellations (zodiacal calendars; there's your astrology ) However, ALL do this mathematically, by measuring the times that these things are in the sky.

So, since you believe that theres nothing personally that you could do to affect anything in the world, it is probably better that you believe in nothing, and sit on your butt and do nothing.... gotta love that logic.

Cheers!

Not what I said. I said that if Kulkulkan decides to re-engineer the universe, I can't stop him. Again, very different words.

Then again, I have absolutely zero evidence of such a being, while there's lots of evidence of the last "doomsday" being pure hokum. So yeah, I'm not going to jump off a cliff with you and believe in the Maya's imaginary being just 'cause it's popular to do so.

reply to post by Gab1159


Can you please show me where there is evidence to the mayans predicting there downfall?

First matter if I think the population now is clever or not that's not the discussion

reply to post by mysticnoon


Totally agree however where is the evidence of there predictions, I dont think they ever predicted anything, a calendar that ends just like any other calendar is not a prediction

I posted this two days ago with regards to the possibility of Nibiru/Planet-X appearing and 2012 in general. It got a good response and i would like to state what i think, 2012 is really about.

They live on through what they left behind. You wouldn't be here in this conversation talking about them, would you?

All you evidence people...constantly on about evidence...rubbish, this whole argument is futile - no one knows either way.

Give me evidence it's rubbish..

Give me evidence it's going to happen...

...No didn't think so

I think it would be silly to think the myans knew nothing, and I think it's stupid to think that science has all the answers, it doesn't, it has some answers for some of the questions, and most of those answers are wrong, as has been proven by science every day...science is about a best guess...asking for proof is futile, there is no such thing as scientific fact...fact!

I think the best thing to do is get on with your lives, regardless if it all ends next year...life is for living, make the most of it

reply to post by doubledutch


And where do you get your info that means new something? Or why do you believe the myans new something?

As far as I can tell all they head was a calendar that ended like any other calendar, there are no prophecies from the myans and nor are there any predictions

Forget about pseudo-science imo!!



For real scientists, 2012 is nothing but comedy gold

...really good thread, Three Deuce - totally enjoyed reading it... your sarcasm in the op was delicious... maybe you could share some of that with the American Sarcasm Society...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
Why weren't you attempting to disprove 2012 BEFORE the Y2K scare?

...i've been laughing at newagers for decades... does that count?...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
why weren't you voiceing your strong opinions against this before hand?

...if a man farts when no one is around, does a tree fall in the forest?...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
a global shift in conciousness that drove people to research ancient civilizations, and 2012 prophecy is part that has been uncovered.

...there has been a global shift in awareness and knowledge due to the internet... users have researched everything researchable, not just ancient civilizations...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
2012 prophecy is NOT ONLY based on the ending of the Mayan Calendar.

...the diverse phrophecies attempt validation by BLAMING their hooey on the mayan calendar...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
Also, Hopi Indian prophecy points to 2012. Even though they do not believe the world will end,

...which hopi prophecy?... the one spoken of by a hopi only to other hopis?... the one spoken of by hopi who are on the "make money off this crap" circuit?... the one spoken of by other ndns that arent hopi?... or is it the phrophecies told by white folks who claim they were told by a hopi elder to share the sacred knowledge?... if its the latter, someone dropped you on your head one too many times when you were a baby... i have a brother like that... we all feel real bad about it but not enough to not laugh at him...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
they say that people who are unable to adapt to change will be doomed.

...adapt or die isnt exactly sacred knowledge...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
that makes THREE prolifent societies that warn us about this day upcoming.

...people have interpreted them to suit their own delusions...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
you want to discredit all of 2012 theory because of your own personal theory that the end of their calendar means NOTHING...........

...i dont have that theory... i think it meant something to the maya but we dont know what that was and anyone who claims that they do is full of something that stinks real bad...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
But, of course (by your brilliant deductions) the third must count nothing, and be unimportant

...ahahahaaa!... you're so funny!...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
The Mayans never say that the world is going to end, but if there was not going to be a change, then why make such a long calendar

...cuz they could...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
and why do you make sure that generations to follow pay attention to your calendar?

...did they make sure?... i've seen no evidence of that...

To all who are saying "Oh they're calendar ends like any other calendar" no it doesn't.

It doesn't end, it starts again. since its talking about a cycle there is no end, just a new cycle. Secondly our current calendar DOES NOT END. We haven't put a date on it. for all intents and purposes we could be using it for another million years and it will just be the year 1, 002, 011. The Mayans on the other hand made a calendar to track the galactic cycle - perhaps they did it just for completeness, but I think there's more to it than that.

If our scientists knew about, for example, a comet that would hit the earth in 100 years and wipe out all civilisation, then they might mark that on the calendar as well.

If our civilisation cared at all about nature then we might base our calendars around natural cycles as well. But we don't, because we are too caught up in this illusion of reality and have our heads buried in the sand.

Its gonna be an interesting few years.

OK, fancy-pants. Show me a picture of the Mayan Calendar.

Originally posted by simples
reply to post by doubledutch

 

And where do you get your info that means new something? Or why do you believe the myans new something?

As far as I can tell all they head was a calendar that ended like any other calendar, there are no prophecies from the myans and nor are there any predictions

You missed my point...I don't know and neither do you...it's a futile argument. I like to discuss these things and think on them but I don't claim to know either way, neither should you or anyone else. We simply don't know

One thing we do know though is that the myan calender didn't end, it's cyclical...it starts again, our calender isn't, it has no end date. We also know that ancient civilizations were in touch with 'mother earth' and we certainly aren't, there's a lot to be said for that

reply to post by doubledutch


But as far as I'm concerned there are no prophecies recorded anywhere by the myans therefore there isn't any so how can somebody say the world is going to end because the myan calendar end or finishes it's cycle in the winter .

How does anybody know the myans were in touch with mother earth?

How could the myans possibly pinpoint something to a certain date?

21 12 12 isn't the only date that has been interpreted from the myan calendar so does anybody actually understand it properly?

The myans didn't know anything compared to what civilisation knows now so how can anyone say they had known about something we didn't.

They couldn't be all that clever they couldn't even save there own civilisation.

There is nothing the Mayans knew that we don't know today in terms of astronomy/cosmology or how the world works. Yes, just like the Greeks they were clever people to some extent, but their knowledge doesn't even amount to 1% of what we know today

The thing is, various religious people almost WANT something to happen as in their twisted minds they believe it would prove their religion. So sad...

I have read the quran. It talks about the last day. The description of the last day is pretty much similar to whats being talked about with regards to 2012 but not sure about the date.
If you read the quran, you can find a regular pattern, A messenger arrives to warn mankind, part of them believe him, part of them dont. Then there's huge destruction, which happens in the last day. Those that believe the messenger are either saved by special grace or are allowed to live for a time before being ressurected. This is the case with all the prophets. 2012 sounds similar to this one.
One such quote -
"Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith."

Source - www.usc.edu...

I guess whats given in it is quite true....