The teachings of Christ are logically, intelligently, undeniably the Truth. Test it!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

I keep hearing that this was his primary teaching, but I have never seen anyone actually prove that this is his primary teaching. As someone who has read the Bible, I have not found this to be evident in the writings.

Are you serious? I could thumb to the verse right now. I'll give you a clue, He is speaking to the crowd who asks Him what the greatest commandment is.

But that doesn't prove that it's his primary teaching. A person can state something about their own work and be honestly mistaken. After all, Van Gogh was under the impression that his body of work was all crap...yet I happen to have one of is paintings as the background for my desktop.

Secondly Madness, you don't see the glaring contradiction with a moral authority for all mankind that appeals to mankind?

Nope. We pretty much like the idea of things that are fair. We're social creatures.

How do we all know instinctively that it is wrong to murder another human?

Easily. It's bad for the group. We evolved so that those who arbitrarily murdered members of the in group were ostracized. We see this in other primate societies as well as in wolf packs, bee hives, ant colonies, and a host of other places.

Animals have no such conscience.

See above. Also, piranha in the midst of a feeding frenzy are never observed to eat each other...

How do we know instinctively that we should treat others how we wish to be treated?

Empathy. We are aware enough to understand that others experience things in the same manner we do. We know what it would feel like to experience unfair, unjust, painful, or otherwise bad treatment. It's the same reason why you see a bunch of guys wince a bit when they see a particularly gruesome testicular injury.

Animals know no such instinct.

Animals also don't have the same level of cognition we do. Hell, a great deal of them can't even recognize their own reflection.

Animals will steal food from one another, yet we humans consciously know this is wrong.

Not all animals will steal food from one another.

You have to appeal to an authority higher than man for it to be applicable to all men.

No, you do not. You're also making an illogical leap. Granted, I remember reading this in.. I believe it was the works of CS Lewis. You're making the same mistake he is. You're excluding the possibility of morality derived from our greater cognitive abilities via empathy.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
No, you do not. You're also making an illogical leap. Granted, I remember reading this in.. I believe it was the works of CS Lewis. You're making the same mistake he is. You're excluding the possibility of morality derived from our greater cognitive abilities via empathy.

I do not think we are so far apart in our views now my friend. Empathy, the source of morality and the reason Christs teachings make the most logical sense.

The problem we have in this world is we do not use our empathy universally over the whole spectrum of mankind. We limit our families to small groups rather than the whole species. We love our families that we know through direct ties and judge those outside those ties as not worthy of our empathy.

Is it empathy to turn our heads away from the starving and destitute while we fill our lives with meaningless junk to distract us from their misery?

Is it empathy to pay men to oppress those who cannot help themselves?

Is it empathy to judge one another for so many things we have no control over?

Is it empathy to punish, as you claim we need?

How has this form of empathy benefited our species?

Can you not see that if you turn a blind eye to the sufferings of others, you create the criminals you desire a justice system to protect you from?

Can you not see that your nation accumulates wealth at the expense of others, they will come to take it back?

The "visions" of the Prophets are no more than logical deduction of what will happen if mankind establishes systems of inequities. There "visions" are truths veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. Every man is a prophet to one degree or another. Each Man sees the world in his own unique way and as long as the common vision continues to shift in favor of a few, the many will cry out for liberty. When there cries go unheard by their Brothers and Sisters, they will lash out more dramatically.

Cause and effect, logical consequence of action.

Or as Christ would say, you reap what you sow.

With Love,

Your Brother

Christianity. I don't mind Jezus at all...its his groundpersonnel that bothers me the most

And as for the OP claiming that the teachings are logically the truth? You probably don't know a lot about logics I guess? I am not criticizing your faith, I am criticizing you.

What ever you believe in, creationism or the evolution theorie...we were created somehow. We just don't know.
So stop trying to make other people 'see the truth'. Let us find out for ourselves.

Religion is just a way of explaining the mystery's we perceive.

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
Christianity. I don't mind Jezus at all...its his groundpersonnel that bothers me the most

I can certainly relate my friend.

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
And as for the OP claiming that the teachings are logically the truth? You probably don't know a lot about logics I guess? I am not criticizing your faith, I am criticizing you.

Hhhmmm sorry my friend, you do not know enough about me to criticise me yet. However, if you open a conversation, then you might learn enough to find fault. Are you saying this is not logical:

You reap what you sow

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
What ever you believe in, creationism or the evolution theorie...we were created somehow. We just don't know.
So stop trying to make other people 'see the truth'. Let us find out for ourselves.

I do not have a belief my friend. We do not know enough about this existence to claim to have belief yet. This thread is part of the searching for truth process. Christs teachings were but a small part of the truth of things. Mainly, how to get along while we are looking for the truth around us.

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
Religion is just a way of explaining the mystery's we perceive.

I agree. I have been through enough religions to know they are all right, and all wrong. We are not discussing religion here, only and exclusively, the teachings of Christ.

Thanks for popping in and good luck and Godspeed on your quest for truth.

With Love,

Your Brother

I'm not a Christian, though I revere Jesus as a great spiritual master. Like many past masters, his life and story has been taken out of context many times, and events mythologized.

In essence, I believe the teachings of Jesus to be true, because he is teaching the same spiritual truths as other great realized masters like the Buddha, and Krishna.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Allright, I kind of missed your point in my first post. Thanks for enlightening me.
I agree with you that there are many good idea's and concepts in the bible. So should we take the bible only as a way of living?

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
Allright, I kind of missed your point in my first post. Thanks for enlightening me.
I agree with you that there are many good idea's and concepts in the bible. So should we take the bible only as a way of living?

That's all I take it as my friend. I believe the sincerest form of worship of the great unknown is to love the life we are given, and the wonderful people we share our lives with.

But, I am not trying to convert anyone with this thread. The purpose was to test it as a logical truth. I believe it holds up as logical, and if we applied it to our lives, rather than preach it, we could make a much better society than what we have.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by tom502
In essence, I believe the teachings of Jesus to be true, because he is teaching the same spiritual truths as other great realized masters like the Buddha, and Krishna.

Absolutely my friend.

I would add a few more luminaries to the list: Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and many others who loved unconditionally all that came into their lives.

Very true indeed.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Okandetre

The longer version of that quote makes it sound worse even. You can explain everything away with symbolism until you have nothing left of the original document. I can't remember the placing but I was sure there was a quote of which stating from God that it was the literal and unalterable word in the bible. I think it was OT but still, this would seem to suggest you should be taking it all literally OT and NT.

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

I mean without any symbolism, how do you explain the rationale of this sort of behaviour? Unless you agree that adulter's children should die....

In respect though you got balls to do this as it's like pleading innocent in court with blood on your hands. Wish more people would atleast try listening to what other people think of scripture, even if they wish it all away with symbolism.

Would be funny to see you try with the OT though :p

Sounds like God has declared open season on reptiles? But seriously, all joking aside, those individuals who by intention attach themselves to the primitive brain centers (R-Complex) are apparently doomed according to said scripture.

Jezebel translated 'Cruel Queen' [wife (eternal) of Ahab] who is the focus of God's dissatisfaction apparently has it good with a certain group of 'pious folk' meaning that they indulge in her sensual offerings [and hope through charitable deeds to be pardoned?!]. This may also be a metaphor for Babalon the 'active sleep inducing ingredient' of collective humanity. The LORD very clearly holds Babalon in high regard according to Jer 51:7; he pines and is optomistic she can be healed. Her influence is Divine.

However, through some twisted reasoning although he sanctions her interaction he also punishes those who become intoxicated by her?! Sounds like God is Jealous in a very odd way?!


Hope this answered your question or at least provided more to consider. Perhaps, IAMIAM will get around to your post and provide additional details?


Regards

Originally posted by Okandetre
The longer version of that quote makes it sound worse even. You can explain everything away with symbolism until you have nothing left of the original document. I can't remember the placing but I was sure there was a quote of which stating from God that it was the literal and unalterable word in the bible. I think it was OT but still, this would seem to suggest you should be taking it all literally OT and NT.

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

I mean without any symbolism, how do you explain the rationale of this sort of behaviour? Unless you agree that adulter's children should die....

In respect though you got balls to do this as it's like pleading innocent in court with blood on your hands. Wish more people would atleast try listening to what other people think of scripture, even if they wish it all away with symbolism.

Would be funny to see you try with the OT though :p

I do not comment on the old testament my friend because I see it as a history book of one particular people of the world. There is wisdom in the Talmud, but it is surrounded by cultural bias and innovations. While Jesus may have been a practicing Jew and even a Rabbi, he brought new teachings that went back to the basics of the faith past the innovations of the Pharisees and Sadducees who were more enamored with looking after their respective positions of power rather than the spiritual well being of their people.

Which brings us to the quote you mentioned. Here Christ is preparing to set his disciples out to minister. He is pretty much giving them their battle orders. While it may seem like he is talking of violent action, he is actually putting quite poetically what his teachings would do.

King James Version
"49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49-53)

He has come to set fire on the earth - He is burning up old doctrines to replace with the new.
He has a baptism to be baptised with, he will be straightened - This baptism is his death, he knew he would be put to death for his teachings.
He is bringing division - Some will reject his teachings, others will accept them. This isn't peace.
Fathers will be divided against the Sons, and Daughters against the Mothers - Who is more likely to take new teachings? The youth. Young people are more rebellious by nature, particularly in an oppressive environment.

I don't know my friend, it seems pretty straight forward to me. The funny thing about it all is if Christ were to come back today and teach his same doctrines, those doctrines of Love and forgiveness, many Christians would, like the Pharisees and Saduccees condemn him once more. I have seen it done with my own eyes.

So, this passage is still relevant today. His teachings are still bringing division because people simply do not want to accept them, even some of those who claim to be his followers.

Ever since the beginning of time Man has been trying to be looked at as favorite by God. We have sacrificed and built temples, and conquered many a land all in hopes of pleasing God.

Silly Man, we are ALL his creation and he does not judge between us. Hence, neither should we judge between each other.

Disclaimer: These are my thoughts and solely my thoughts which my conflict with your church dogma. If you feel the need to declare heretic, heathen, blasphemer, etc. at this point, it is totally natural, but unnecessary. I have heard it all before.

With Love,

Your Brother

P.S. I do not concern myself much with Revelation either. Too spooky for me, and if it is an accurate prophecy, it will happen regardless of my concern.

It is quite the undertaking to comment on revelation and the Old Testament so your fear and uncertainty is duly noted. Well done on castrating God's ferocity... God ferocious... that does seem silly



Peace

This is a little awkward.

You are asking me to put a side my suspicions on the origin of Christianity and Jesus. Then you talk about the obligation we have to follow his teachings. Well, Jesus seems like a good guy and I am sure the world would be a better place if we were all like him, however the nature of Religion can not allow me to seriously consider many of the ideas found within Christianity, besides the ones that are just common sense (I don't need a bible to understand that killing people or hurting their feelings is wrong).

What is truth? If truth is just treating others well, ending poverty, promoting social justice, etc. then great and sign me up.

But if Religion requires me to have an absolute conclusion on the creation of the universe, then I must refuse because none of us could know that at this time.

On the side, and I am sure you realize this but it was little vague in the OP. There is no writing from Jesus, and there is no evidence that supports the existence of any of the authors that are credited in the new testament. There is no Roman record still intact that mentions Jesus before the year 247 CE. If I am incorrect on this matter, I would love to be corrected. I found my research on the Councils of Nicea to be very informative on the matter of Christianity in general.

Originally posted by Marulo
This is a little awkward.

You are asking me to put a side my suspicions on the origin of Christianity and Jesus. Then you talk about the obligation we have to follow his teachings. Well, Jesus seems like a good guy and I am sure the world would be a better place if we were all like him, however the nature of Religion can not allow me to seriously consider many of the ideas found within Christianity, besides the ones that are just common sense (I don't need a bible to understand that killing people or hurting their feelings is wrong).

What is truth? If truth is just treating others well, ending poverty, promoting social justice, etc. then great and sign me up.

But if it requires me to have an absolute conclusion on the creation of the universe, then I must refuse because none of us could know that at this time.

On the side, and I am sure you realize this but it was little vague in the OP. There is no writing from Jesus, and there is no evidence that supports the existence of any of the authors that are credited in the new testament. There is no Roman record still intact that mentions Jesus before the year 247 CE. If I am incorrect on this matter, I would love to be corrected. I found my research on the Councils of Nicea to be very informative on the matter of Christianity in general.

edit on 27-1-2011 by Marulo because: (no reason given)

I am not asking you to put away your suspicions on the origins of Christianity. I asked that you put aside your bias and look at the teachings of Christ logically. Personally, I do not care if it was discovered that the Bible was written by Satan himself, the teachings are still logically true, and wise. If you disagree, this is what I would like to discuss.

Christ never taught about the creation of the Universe. I do not believe that we have enough info to know the true story of the creation of the Universe, but when we do, guess what that story will begin with? A WORD.

So, here are the teachings that I am specifically talking about. I will provide them for Simplicity sake.

1. Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you (Matt. 5:44).
2. Resist not evil: if a man smite thee on one cheek, turn to him the other also (Matt. 5:30-40).
3. Avenge not yourselves: rather give place unto wrath: and suffer yourselves to be defrauded (Rom. 12:18, 19).
4. If a man take away thy goods, ask them not again (Luke 6:29, 30).
5. Agree with your adversary quickly, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace (Matt. 5:25; 1 Cor. 6:7).
6. Labor not to be rich: be ready to every good work, give to those who ask; relieve the afflicted (1 Tim. 6:8; Rom. 12:13; Heb. 13:16; James 1:27).
7. Do not your alms before men: Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth (Matt. 6:1-4).
8. Recompense to no man evil for evil: overcome evil with good (Rom. 12:17).
9. Bless them that curse you; let no cursing come out of your mouth (Matt. 5:44; Rom. 12:14).
10. Render not evil for evil, or railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing (1 Pet. 3:9).
11. Pray for them that despitefully use you and afflict you (Matt. 5:44).
12. Grudge not: judge not: complain not: condemn not (James 5:9; Matt. 7:1).
13. Put away anger, wrath, bitterness, and all evil speaking (Eph. 4:31; 1 Pet. 2:1).
14. Confess your faults one to another (James 5:16).
15. Be not conformed to this world: love not the world (Rom. 12:2; 1 John 2:15).
16. Deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts. If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Titus 2:13; Matt. 5:30).
17. Servants, be faithful, even to bad masters (Eph. 6:5-8).
18. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate (Rom. 12:16).
19. Owe no man anything (Rom. 13:7,8).
20. In case of sin (known or heard of) speak not of it to others, but tell the offending brother of the matter between thee and him alone, with a view to recovery (Matt. 18:15; Gal. 6:1).
21. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart (Matt. 22:37).
22. Pray always; pray with brevity and simplicity; pray secretly (Luke 18:1; Matt. 6:7).
23. In everything give thanks to God and recognize Him in all your ways (Eph. 5:20; Prov. 3:6).
24. As you would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them (Matt. 7:12).
25. Take Christ for an example and follow in his steps (1 Pet. 2:21).
26. Let Christ dwell in your heart by faith (Eph. 3:17).
27. Esteem Christ more highly than all earthly things; yea, than your own life (Luke 14:26).
28. Confess Christ freely before men (Luke 12:8).
29. Beware lest the cares of life or the allurements of pleasure weaken his hold on your heart (Matt. 24:44).
30. Love thy neighbor as thyself (Matt. 22:39).
31. Exercise lordship over no one (Matt. 23:11).
32. Seek not your own welfare only, nor bear your own burdens merely, but have regard to those of others (Phil. 2:4; Gal. 6:2).
33. Let your light shine before men: hold forth the word of life. Do good to all men as ye have opportunity (Matt. 5:16; Phil. 2:16; Gal. 6:10).
34. Be blameless and harmless, as the sons of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation (Phil. 2:15).
35. Be gentle, meek, kind-hearted, compassionate, merciful, forgiving (2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 2:2; Eph. 4:32).
36. Be sober, grave, sincere, temperate (Phil. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 5:8).
37. Speak the truth every man with his neighbor: put away all lying (Eph. 4:25).
38. Whatsoever ye do, do it heartily as unto the Lord, and not unto men (Col. 3:23).
39. Be watchful, vigilant, brave, joyful, courteous, and strong (1 Cor. 16:13; Phil. 4:4; 1 Thess. 5:6-10).
40. Be clothed with humility; be patient toward all (Col. 3:12; Rom. 12:12).
41. Follow peace with all men (Heb. 12:14).
42. Sympathize in the joys and sorrows of others (Rom. 12:15).
43. Follow after whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, and praiseful (Phil. 4:8).
44. Refrain utterly from adultery, fornication, uncleanness, drunkenness, covetousness, wrath, strife, sedition, hatred, emulation, boasting, vainglory, envy, jesting, and foolish talking (Eph. 5:3,4).
45. Whatever you do, consider the effect of your action on the honor of God's name among men. Do all to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31; 3:17).
46. Reckon yourselves dead to all manner of sin. Henceforth live not to yourselves, but to him who died for you, and rose again (Rom. 6-11; 2 Cor. 5:15).
47. Be zealous of good works, always abounding in the work of the Lord, wearying not in well doing (Titus 2:14; Gal. 6:9).
48. Speak evil of no man (Titus 3:2).
49. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly (Col. 3:16).
50. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt (Col. 3:8; 4:6).
51. Obey rules; submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake (Titus 3:1).
52. Be holy in all manner of conversation (1 Pet. 1:15, 16).
53. Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully (1 Tim. 5:14).

All of these are but elaborations on the Great Comandments which are to Love God with all your being, and your neighbor as yourself.

Now I do take exception to number 51. I believe rules have evolved past the point of being good for the general well being for all, and now serve but a very few. So, I protest peacefully by disregarding the rule of Law. Other than that, it is a pretty sound list.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Giovannetti44
I was raised Christian, but i have many problems/ questions about the religion. If you could provide some answers (to the best of your understanding of the bible) it would be great.

1. Why would an all-loving God punish homosexuals to enternal suffering in hell for simply being who they are? I know some homesexuals and they claim they are truly happy for finally accepting who they truly are. Why would God punish them for this?

Homosexuality was forbidden in many ancient cultures. The reason is because homosexual relationships do not lead to offspring. Offspring have always been considered the greatest gift because they ensure the survival of the tribe. To put yourself and your own desires over that of the well being of the tribe was considered to be the most selfish act. Curiously, Christ never condemned anyone. He defended thieves, prostitutes, murderers, all mankind he loved with equality. Why Christians today forsake Christs teachings in the new testament in favor of diggin up old laws from the judaic ceremonial code is beyond me. Just because some do it, does not mean that it is representative of the love and forgiveness that Christ showed the world.

Does God hate homosexuals? My God is Love, the creator.

Originally posted by Giovannetti44
2. Why would God feel a human emotion (jealousy) when it comes to "worship of false idols"?

Again, this is man applying a human attribute to explain a spiritual truth. It isn't that God hates idols perse, it is that there is NOTHING that represents God. God is everything as a whole, the universe in motion. God is within all things, thus no one thing can represent God. Making God out to be jealous is a way of getting a primitve people to understand that the rock they were worshipping is not God. There is so much more to discover about this existence, we should not limit our understanding of it, ever.

Originally posted by Giovannetti44
3. The teachings say all those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior are also damned to hell. 2/3 of the world is not Christian. 2/3 of the world is not evil and many religions have the same morals/principles as Christ followers. Many are all around good people. Why would God make these people suffer?

God does not make man suffer. Man makes man suffer in the name of God. Ever since the beginning of time Man has been fighting Man over who will be most beloved. Do you have children? Have you ever seen two children fight over who is the most beloved by their parents? Man is but a baby in this universe.

As for accepting Christ as savior, if you do not accept his teachings, then Man will not be saved. His teachings were of love and forgiveness. If we do not love and forgive then yes, we will continue to fight amongst ourselves and continue to create this hell of our existence. It is the TEACHINGS that save man. It is the TEACHINGS that are the spirit of Christ. Christ is but a word that is empty if you do not adopt the teachings. It is a false idol.

Thus, if the teachings are the same, but called Gobbley Gook, then Gobbley Gook is as valid. Do not idolise a word, follow the wise teachings of those who taught love and peace.

Originally posted by Giovannetti44
4. What do you make of the Dinosaurs?

Big Lizards.

I am assuming that is a dig at the creation story in the Bible.

The creation story of Genesis is the best explanation that the Prophets of old could deduce based on the evidence they had at the time of its writing. At that time, man did not know about dinosaurs. Man did not live with dinosaurs, how could man write about them before we developed the understanding we now have?

Even with all we know now, we still cannot write any better of a creation story. No matter what story we come up with, it too will be outdated in time with more discoveries about our existence.

Originally posted by Giovannetti44
Please don't dodge the questions and thanks.

I am sorry for taking so long to get back to you my friend. I wasn't dodging your post, I just became sidetracked and it fell through the proverbial cracks.

With Love,

Your Brother

Re NOTurTypical

You wrote:

["Heeeeeey, the astounding heptadic structures of the Biblical texts is my argument for supernatural origin!"]

Yes, that's YOUR argument, based on your home-brewed cottage-industry 'logic'. We've been there before, and when questioned you ended up with the final statement, that it's true, because 'Satan' can't count.

Feel free to follow your own version of logic, but don't expect the rest of us to to accept it as the real thing (as in the standard usage).

It's not even straight to topic of the intrinsic meaning of Jesus' teachings as presented in NT.

Jesus' own words as in John

5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

Unfortunately the direct followers of John the baptist called Jesus the 'deciever messiah', so either is John lying about what Jesus really said, Jesus lied himself, or the followers of John the baptist are lying.

Start loading the guns with arguments about authenticity, 'real' historians from that period or just the usual circle-argumentation.

I can absolutely not find any faults in relying on and supporting the undefined or/or nameless concept of 'higher powers' or ultimate 'reality' (even if it's called 'god', which is just a label), as long as it's not exclusive and not invasive.

A spokesman for this 'higher powers', examplified through alleged direct quotes, doesn't disturb me either, as long as it's not exclusive or invasive.

A message of 'love' is OK, as long as it isn't exclusive or invasive. But it has to be defined rather more precisely than the standard christian 'golden rule', which can be used in a twisted semantic context as an excuse for: "For their own good".

But I can't for the sake of D-g not understand, why this specific line of theological compassion should find expression ending with Jesus, as both Buddhism and Jain carry the compassion-aspect much further into "the end of suffering of all sentient beings".

Are there special anthropo-centric considerations at play here?

Re IAMIAM

You wrote:

["The creation story of Genesis is the best explanation that the Prophets of old could deduce based on the evidence they had at the time of its writing. At that time, man did not know about dinosaurs. Man did not live with dinosaurs, how could man write about them before we developed the understanding we now have?

Even with all we know now, we still cannot write any better of a creation story. No matter what story we come up with, it too will be outdated in time with more discoveries about our existence."]

You are amongst my favourite theists, and most of the time rather rational and compassionate in a decent way. Why did you have to go and state something like above?

Disregarding dinosaurs, which is rather outside my competence, and not being to nitpicking about what was 'deduction' and plain guessing, when genesis was formulated, the last paragraph is below your usual high standard.

You are not seriously considering a 'knowledge-vacuum' argument as an excuse to justify a possible value of genesis. The cosmology of genesis 1 is pure bosh, and while science maybe hasn't the final answer, it's at least well on its way.

You have hurt my feelings.

Your friend Bogomil

Re 51Reasons

Quote: ["Even if you do not believe in Jesus you can make it to heaven."]

That is, if there IS a heaven. For a starter.

Quote: ["But when you take Jesus intto your heart, its like you grow a foot taller than anyone else, and you can see above all the meaningless nonsense."]

Non-believers usually consider such claims as delusions of grandeur, without any value at all.

Quote: ["It is not easy to believe."]

Not if you have to choose between several thousand different theistic claims, or if you trust in rational methodologies.

Quote: ["I can tell you he is real."]

How?

Quote: ["Just imagine living in Kingdom of god, because when I took Jesus into my life, thousands of generations of my anscestors, some in heaven, some in hell, some residing in the kingdom of god (where I will now reaside after this earthly experience), were all happy for me and rejoicing for my salvation. It was a great day."]

Even admitting the slight possibility of your 'imagining' to have any evidential value at all, I still find it hard to trust your ancestor-experiences. You claivoyant, talk directly with 'god' or do you have prophetic visions?

While experiences of anomalies may be based on something outside our minds, interpretations of them are thirteen a dozen, and usually just 'prove' a pre-determined answer.

reply to post by IAMIAM


How exactly am I supposed to 'test' it? This is a very misleading thread title, as you have supported none of your titles claims. All you said in the OP was what we weren't supposed to discuss in the thread.

I hate it when people start threads like these just to get other members to come validate their beliefs for them.