Michael Moore Answers Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

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posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:22 AM
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Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources

Read it and weep, Moore critics. The most persuasive criticism of Fahrenheit 9/11, the Fifty-Nine Deceits document, has been blasted into oblivion. I was pretty impressed with Fifty-Nine Deceits, when I first read it, but then I started noticing that many of the so-called deceits were not deceits at all, and that some of the sources, such as Stephen Hayes and Laurie Mylroie, have been thoroughly discredited. Other critical articles, such as those by Christopher Hitchens and Michael Isikoff, have been thoroughly deconstructed. Isikoff, in particular, cannot even get basic facts correct in his two articles. Finally, Fifty-nine Deceits relies heavily on right-wing propaganda sources, such as Weekly Standard and National Review.

The author of Fifty-nine Deceits is certainly industrious, because Moore just released Fahrenheit 9/11 Notes + Sources today, and references to Moore's latest document are already incorporated in Fifty-nine Deceits.

Moore's document does not specifically reference Fifty-nine Deceits, but a quick scan shows that it addresses many of the major criticisms of Fifty-nine Deceits. Unlike Fifty-nine Deceits, Moore's source references are all to respected, well-known news sources.

So you Moore critics need to face reality. While some of Moore's facts can be questioned and debated, he has reliable sources for most everything that has been seriously challenged. You cannot plausibly call him a liar when he has a reliable source to back him up, even if the fact ultimately proves to be false.

You can certainly argue that Moore uses editing, selective use of facts, and juxtaposition of facts to create false and misleading impressions. But please stop calling Michael Moore a liar, at least with respect to Fahrenheit 9/11. If you continue to brand Moore a liar, you are just showing that you have no respect for the truth yourself.

Really, it doesn't matter what the Moore critics do. Fahrenheit 9/11 has already grossed $80 million and been seen by ten million viewers. I predict the final figures will be twice those numbers. Moore has finally gotten the truth about George Bush out to a significant number of people, after the major media in this country have done everything possible to hide the truth about George Bush for the last four years.

As a commenter at Matthew Yglesias' weblog said, Fahrenheit 9/11 is like a missile flying down the exhaust chute of the Death Star. The destruction of the Death Star is certain, the occupants just don't know it yet. The destruction of the Bush Crime Family is certain, the family members and running dogs just don't know it yet.


[edit on 7/12/2004 by donguillermo]




posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:37 AM
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It's not surprising, he did it for BFC...

I just wish people would base their opinions of him on their own experiences...

Deny Ignorance... or not.

Nice read, thanks.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 02:10 AM
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Even though I havn't seen F/911 yet nor do I plan too in the near future, MM's Notes and Sources seem very impressive and factual. I just wish MM would put more devil advocate evidance along with all that other stuff so you can properly weigh and judge all the info but then again if he did that F/911 would've been longer then the entire LOTR Trilogy.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 02:15 AM
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my own problem with MM started with BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE. I think lying by omission, is the same as an outright lie. I also have a problem with a Socialist whining about the United States while his child goes to Private School, and he is not exactly living like a pauper.

I don't want to start a war here, but I am not paying $8.50 for a ticket ($5.50 student prices) to see a movie that will be that biased.

~JMO~



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 05:24 AM
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Still Holly Wood should stay out of the political game it could cost us the war on terror!!!



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 05:25 AM
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Out of 59 items lets say ten of them do fit your criteria, author biased, news source biased. Does bisa make for a lie or does it make for a harsh truth. What you view and paint with a broad brush as propaganda may only be information that you yourself are naturally biased against yourself.

In your well worded narrative I see not one concrete example cited that proves what you have said is true, MM's information provided in MM's own defence is not what I would call exactly unbiased and without propaganda.

I find it interesting that an ex Clinton administration person such as Laurie Mylroie is under attack as a conservative hack, more than interesting I find it laughable that thats the case.

Much of the information in 59 Deceits also came from centrist to left leaning media sources that you failed to make mention of, how convenient.

There is one outright lie that is not a lie of ommission or simple error in MM's movie that is proven to be otherwise by multiple sourcing and 9/11 commission testimony that is a glaring example making your assertion that no one can call MM a liar wrong.

"Bin Laden family flies when airspace is closed, getting special treatment from Bush relationship"

Even the imdommitable Richard Clarke says "Not True"

donguillermo, you can hunt and peck all you like but the fact remains if any one of the 59 deceits hold true then MM is a liar is he not? I think the salvation for MM you seek is going to require debunking all 59 deceits, trying to use one or more examples to form a broad paintbrush isn't going to cut it.

MM is the one who called this fiction piece a documentary not anyone else, he stands to be called out for portraying it as all truth when it is not.

Calling this movie a documentary in the first place fits the profile of propaganda much better than what his critics have written to date.

If MM and his supporters would just come out and admit this movie was commentary, editorializing or just a long infomercial then I would'nt have a care about what he says, he's entiteled to his opinion.

It is the portraying of this as truth to many who either will not or can not research the facts as we do that bothers me, but that is afterall the true aim of propaganda in the end.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by Phoenix]



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 06:32 AM
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Surely, if the US Administration delivers most of it's stats and info' through Neo-Con media outlets and other biased outlets, it requires a response of the same measure from the Liberals.

MM doesn't quite give the whole story, but he does not lie.

Where as Bush just lies, something the Neo-cons accept, as it benefits themselves, and their families, and their rich mates and rich mates to be......



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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It was the best 10 bucks I have spentin a long time. If just a fraction of what was in the movie was true, Bush should be impeached. My hat goes off to MM, for having the balls to stand up against the man.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 07:55 AM
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Here I thought that donguillermo was going to present hard facts to refute the 59 deceits, instead I read a propaganda folder of half-truths, twists and spins. It simply reinforces my perception of MM formed during the Schlockumentary called Bowling for Columbine... the guy is biased, untruthful and cunning. In other words there is no need to put any stock into his "Facts" as they are not really facts at all, merely half-truths and distortions. It would perfectly support the claims of those biased anti-Bush folks who are grasping at just about anything to impeach Bush, right donguillermo. I'm very disappointed that you were not able to deny ignorance when linking to this tripe.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:01 AM
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You can vote for Bush, sense he is such a Great guy.

I'm very disappointed that you were not able to deny ignorance when linking to this tripe.

Call it what you want, I have said from the start, tha Bush and his people where beind 9/11. And I have not changed my mind.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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that when a proven liar like Michael Moore-on simply comes up with more lies to cover his lies, people actually believe him. What a bunch of sheeple....


Check his SOURCES...his WORD means NOTHING!!!



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
that when a proven liar like Michael Moore-on simply comes up with more lies to cover his lies, people actually believe him. What a bunch of sheeple....


Check his SOURCES...his WORD means NOTHING!!!



I feel the same way about Bush, and the people of power. EVERYONE lies. How many debates have been in the Pit about Bush, Kerry, and all the other people that have been caught in lies? Atleast 10. So Like I said In the first post. If there is any truth in tha whole movie, then Bush should be impeached. You cant sit there and tell me the whole movie is false. If it was the Bush people would be sueing the # out of MM.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:44 AM
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Bush does not retaliate, as, in order to debunk Moore's claims he would have to divulge far more than he is willing to tell, and he'd never have a chance of getting re-elected.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Koka
Bush does not retaliate, as, in order to debunk Moore's claims he would have to divulge far more than he is willing to tell, and he'd never have a chance of getting re-elected.


So what you are telling me is that Bush has other things that are wrose than MM is saing. Humm...... Nice.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 09:57 AM
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Phoenix says


There is one outright lie that is not a lie of ommission or simple error in MM's movie that is proven to be otherwise by multiple sourcing and 9/11 commission testimony that is a glaring example making your assertion that no one can call MM a liar wrong.

"Bin Laden family flies when airspace is closed, getting special treatment from Bush relationship"


ROTLMAO. You are too funny Phoenix. You are attacking Moore's credibility, yet you cannot even get your facts straight. The movie does not say that the Bin Laden family flew when the airspace was closed. You are just repeating one of Isikoff's lies. I find it very teling that Moore's critics have to lie and distort what Moore says in order to show that Moore is a liar. When you put something in quotes, you are implying that you are quoting Moore directly.

Michael Isikoff and Newsweek Magazine Deceive the Public About Fahrenheit 9/11


In the June 28, 2004 issue of Newsweek Magazine, Newsweek writer Michael Isikoff makes completely false and misleading statements about facts and issues contained in Fahrenheit 9/11. Isikoff has also gone on television shows repeating the charges.

Here are some of the falsehoods he is telling, and the truth:

Saudi Flights: Isikoff writes that "The movie claims that in the days after 9/11, when airspace was shut down, the White House approved special charter flights so that prominent Saudis - including members of the bin Laden family - could leave the country. Author Craig Unger appears, claiming that bin Laden family members were never interviewed by the FBI. Not true, according to a recent report from the 9/11 panel."

Isikoff's account of the movie is flatly untrue.

What the movie says is this: "It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."


You really need to get synchronized with the other Moore critics and find out which lies about Fahrenheit 9/11 have already been debunked.

In case you think Moore is not accurately quoting his own movie, here is the relevant quote from Transcript of Fahrenheit 9/11, Part 1, prepared by a right-wing source.


NARRATOR: It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial plans carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by SpittinCobra


If there is any truth in tha whole movie, then Bush should be impeached. You cant sit there and tell me the whole movie is false. If it was the Bush people would be sueing the # out of MM.



Impeach, impeach, impeach...the war cry of the fearful loony lefties. So afraid that Bush will win again, they don't even want him in the fight. The realization that they are choosing a war criminal and an individual that no military man will follow as their commander in chief has finally sunk in, and they are running scared.

There is nothing to impeach Bush over, or it would have been done already. The reason Bush hasn't made any comments about Moore-on's work of fiction yet is just that...it's a work of fiction. He's got plenty of people in the know defending him, many more than Moore-on does. He's also got the truth on his side, something that Moore-on does not. With Moore-on's highly publicized track record of outright lies and deception, he continues to be a non-entity....



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:00 AM
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Interestingly the MM suporters use MM as their source for the truth. If they had any sources beside his anarchic ramblings they could lend more weight to their arguments. Unfortunately they use typical leftist rhetoric when confronting others of a dissenting viewpoint. I could diagram a typical argument for you, but lets face it, you have all heard them enough to yawn the liberal babble away.

Ultimately what is most laughable is that the leftist have thrown in their lots with MM when he offers no such loyalty in return. He is not a democrat and if a democrat were in the Whitehouse now he would be as vehemently opposed to policy that was contrary to the socialist agenda.



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:58 AM
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I believe MM would prefer the people to use their vote to get GWB out, which doesn't necessarily mean vote for who he wants in.

When voting, IMO, it's best to go for the person closest to your ideals and who has the greatest chance of getting the present administration out, the people who should really be running the country will never be voted in as they find it hard to disown their morals, ethics & principals.

I wouldn't be surprised if MM gets an Oscar for "F99/1", even if it is for Editing. Well deserved..!!

Left Wing Ideal World = Share and Share Alike

Right Wing Ideal World = Every Man for Themselves



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by Koka


Left Wing Ideal World = Share and Share Alike



Sorry, koka, but according to you, your ideal world, i.e. share and share alike, = COMUNISM!!!

Not in MY country, Comrad!!!!

You and Hillary can go to Havana and live out your left wing fantasies..



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by ladyspiritguide
my own problem with MM started with BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE. I think lying by omission, is the same as an outright lie. I also have a problem with a Socialist whining about the United States while his child goes to Private School, and he is not exactly living like a pauper.

I don't want to start a war here, but I am not paying $8.50 for a ticket ($5.50 student prices) to see a movie that will be that biased.

~JMO~

Then download it. Moore has already said that he doesn't agree with copyright laws, and he gives permission to download his movie, as long as no profit is being made.

www.sundayherald.com...

I don't like his over the top liberal style, but I will admit, he does make alot of very valid points. More so than not, actually. While he may go overboard sometimes, that still doesn't change the fact that his documentaries do have alot of factual info.





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