Man Faces Jail After Protecting Home From Masked Attackers (with video footage)

reply to post by kerazeesicko

As I have stated before ...I have been trained in martial arts since I was six...I am now 27..so yes I can take care of myself. I have had punks come up on me attempting to either rob me or beat me...at least three times in my life. I have defended myself and did not feel the need to run and grab a weapon to defend myself

Then you haven't faced a serious threat. Sorry, but there are times when people use lethal force or potentially lethal force against others. In that situation it is just fine to use lethal force in return. If somebody pulls a gun it is fine to shoot back. You don't know if they are bluffing or serious.

I have seen violence up close and personal. I know what can happen when the wolves are at the door. I am trained and have never been seriously injured. However, I have seen my uncle put a man in ICU for three weeks with his hands and feet. The guy he put in the hospital was a US Army Drill Instructor that taught hand to hand combat. I've seen the results of a three on one gang attack and I've seen the damage that can be done with a simple 3 inch folding straight razor.

Real life isn't like the movies. If you go up against a competent guy with a stick, a knife, or even a broken bottle, chances are you aren't going to come out clean. Even if they aren't skilled they can still get real lucky. That is why there is a civilian use of force continuim. Once a person pulls out a clubbing or slicing weapon the potential for permenant injury or death is very real. You have the right to protect your life with lethal force if you fel they are going to attack.

Now if some guy walks up and punches me in the face, I'm not going to shoot. If he picks up a brick, he will get shot. I am confident in my hand to hand skills. If I get beat, that is life. If it starts turning in to a threat of "serious bodily injury" or death, I will step up to the next level of necessary force.

ETA: Would you call a 55+ year old man that has had seven back surgeries, kne surgery, neck surgery, and survived cancer twice a coward for carrying a gun? Maybe you should think before throwing labels around. You don't know who you're talking to on here.

reply to post by MikeNice81

Appropriate level of force is the key. If I guy is holding a brick from 20 yards away then one should not use lethal force (or a golf club fr 5 yards) but if he is holding a molotov cocktail from 5 yards and cocks his arm to throw it at you then that is a different situation. On a different note: What amazes me is how many times some mentally ill person gets killed by the police for wielding a steak knife from a safe distance. I understand their "fear" but arent they trained in hand to hand combat and night stick techniques (let alone less lethal means like a taser)?

Originally posted by MikeNice81
Sir, I highly doubt your claims to have served as a MP.

Well, this forum (ATS) is absolutely full of liars, so I forgive you, there's nothing I can do if you don't believe I was a military police in military service. In a situation of threat we're adviced to 1) verbal warning, 2) shoot to a tree (so the bullet can be recovered for evidence), 3) shoot to the leg.

Wow... looks like we have on this thread a guy who trained police men, and one who's trained in martial arts for over 20 years... and one who doesn't believe I participated in my service like nearly all men do in this country.

I'm telling you people, ATS is like an ant nest, and all the ants in it are liars.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


I agree about apropriate level of force being the key in any encounter. The thing about an attack on your home or in your home is that the allowed use of force changes. In America there is a long standing tradition that a man should feel secure in his own home and has no duty to retreat. The law obviously varies from state to state. So, in most places through out America this guy would have been in no trouble.

The reason the cops are quick to shoot a knife wielding and mentally unstable person usually boils donw to two things. The first is the so called "21 foot rule" any person closer than twenty one feet can stab and cut you faster than you can get a weapon of any kind unholstered and react.

The second is that a knife is considerred lethal force. All it takes is a 4 inch blade to hit vital organs. A bullet proof vest is not stab proof. A knife can go right through unless the officer has a special panel in place on the vest. Many localities skip on these because of the extra expense. Also, a knife to the eye, throat, thigh, or arm can be lethal and quickly. Even a downed opponet with a knife can be lethal quickly. The Marines use to teach soldiers to use their knife to stab up through the testicles and in to the abdomen, if they were on the ground. They said the sudden shock, and puncturing of the abdomen, would end the attackers ability to fight and cause death within a short period. A knife is an extremely deadly weapon and can be employed in an instant without warning at close range.

Originally posted by Jonas86

Originally posted by MikeNice81
Sir, I highly doubt your claims to have served as a MP.

Well, this forum (ATS) is absolutely full of liars, so I forgive you, there's nothing I can do if you don't believe I was a military police in military service. In a situation of threat we're adviced to 1) verbal warning, 2) shoot to a tree (so the bullet can be recovered for evidence), 3) shoot to the leg.

Wow... looks like we have on this thread a guy who trained police men, and one who's trained in martial arts for over 20 years... and one who doesn't believe I participated in my service like nearly all men do in this country.

I'm telling you people, ATS is like an ant nest, and all the ants in it are liars.

I have never posted anything dishonestly so I take offense to that remark but I doubt that all postings are true and genuine but probably no more so than on other sites. If everyone is a liar then that would incliude the above poster (which I am sure that he doesnt agree with btw).

reply to post by Jonas86


Why would you shoot in to a tree for evidence? That makes no sense what does it prove besides the fact that you had enough time to take a pointless shot? To me that says the threat was less than imminent. What if there is no tree within reasonable range?

I'm not saying that you never served in the military. I am saying your claims on MP training make no sense. I have trained with a gentleman that trains the Secret Service in the use of weapons. I have trained with a guy that trains LEOs through out the state, and was in the Marines as an MP. No one I have traind with ever advised a leg shot. Accepted training doctorine, from my experiences and discussions, is that you shoot at the body part that you have the best chance to hit. That is usually the torso.

The point is not to shoot to kill. It is too shoot to stop. However, shots at the arms, legs, shoulders, and head tend to miss much more often. So, shooting for the trunk of the body is often taught as the optimum and first shot.

Originally posted by hiii_98

Originally posted by SSDDay
reply to post by jerryk42

 

I just want to clarify real quick.

My point: Men in masks are attacking my home, family, and animals with fire bombs. I don't care if I'm in Canada, US, or Timbuktu. I will shoot to kill, not wound or warn. I'm not going to wait for my house to burn down while the cops come. I will not wait for them to physically attack me, if you are trespassing with intent to steal, harm, or stalk... You will be dealt with if deemed fit. These did not look like friendly neighborhood kids having fun. Get my point? What would you do? Stand there? hide? ask to leave?

if your not going to wait then, hows it going to feel waiting in prison or jail, while your attackers are free?

From what he said there, the miscreant's "freedom" ain't gonna be worth much, with them all corpsified and everything. It's my understanding that the corpsification process greatly hinders your mobility - freedom of movement, Romero movies notwithstanding. Without that, what good is their "freedom" gonna do 'em?

you call the police, no stupid animal, or piece of property is worth a human life despite how much of a scumbag these guys are.

See, what you're doing here is getting these "scumbags" (your word) all confused with humans. Risky business, that. I guarantee they won't harbor the same sentimentality when they have YOU at the end of their muzzle - or firebomb, for that matter...

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

Appropriate level of force is the key. If I guy is holding a brick from 20 yards away then one should not use lethal force (or a golf club fr 5 yards) but if he is holding a molotov cocktail from 5 yards and cocks his arm to throw it at you then that is a different situation. On a different note: What amazes me is how many times some mentally ill person gets killed by the police for wielding a steak knife from a safe distance. I understand their "fear" but arent they trained in hand to hand combat and night stick techniques (let alone less lethal means like a taser)?

You'd be truly amazed at how fast those gaps of 5 and 20 yards can be closed. Soon as he picks up a weapon, it's game on. If he DOESN'T pick up a weapon, but still wants to make all those threatening noises, I'll close that gap my damn self. Not gonna turn my back and see if it makes him brave.

I was trained that if you ain't won that hand-to-hand tussle in 30 seconds or less, you've lost. It doesn't leave much room for dancing, but it'll make you all kinds of efficient at ending a threat. Same goes for impact weapons, like sticks and batons. If you're "unarmed" at the moment, you close that gap and get inside their guard where they can't get a good swing whilst you disassemble them. Once you're inside that guard, you can get a hold of, or put sudden pain into, all manner of interesting parts to turn them inside out with, and the arm that swings the club isn't as important at that instant.

Relying on a gap of 5 or 20 yards will get you hurt before you know it.

Originally posted by Jonas86

Wow... looks like we have on this thread a guy who trained police men, and one who's trained in martial arts for over 20 years... and one who doesn't believe I participated in my service like nearly all men do in this country.

I'm telling you people, ATS is like an ant nest, and all the ants in it are liars.

Now son, if you're calling me a liar, I think it's about time you and I compare some paperwork.

I don't know how they train MP's, I've never been one or trained to be one, but police out in the world are trained to NOT fire warning shots, and aim center-of-mass, not at a leg or tree, If you discharge that weapon, it better be to end a threat.

Bullets can riccochet off of trees rather than penetrating the wood, and leg shots, even if your good enough to make one, are not a sure disabler - they also leave you open to charges of malicious wounding. Trust me on this: criminal types don't seem to have a problem suing an entire department if they get a permanent limp - or even if they can convince a judge or jury that the limp might be permanent.

As you ought to be aware, there are things that will work in the military, things you can get away with, that just won't fly in the civilian world.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
A bullet proof vest is not stab proof. A knife can go right through unless the officer has a special panel in place on the vest. Many localities skip on these because of the extra expense.

I've got two vests. The trauma plate in the better one, which I bought for myself, is still only a 4x8 inch piece of titanium centered over my sternum, Small target compared to the rest of me, and I'll not rely on a knife wielder to aim for it. It's only there to prevent penetration through the heart. As you mentioned, there are other, unprotected places every bit as lethal.

The "trauma plate" in my issue vest is the slackest thing I've ever seen. All it is is a pad of a few extra layers of kevlar. Lucky thing the two are interchangeable, so I can just swap out the titanium for the kevlar in that pocket.

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Your a funny little man..you talk tough...but take your gun away...you would be wimpering like a little school girl for them to take the bad men away. As I have stated before ...I have been trained in martial arts since I was six...I am now 27..so yes I can take care of myself. I have had punks come up on me attempting to either rob me or beat me...at least three times in my life. I have defended myself and did not feel the need to run and grab a weapon to defend myself...I stood my ground. I have also been held up at gun point...I never gave nothing up...I would rather have died than to have given that coward the satisfaction of thinking I was afraid ..lucky for me he was all talk.

So yeah a man who thinks the only way to defend his family is weapon..is a coward in my eyes....Let's hope this family is never without a weapon....watching thier father/husband curl up on the ground...due to fear....would be a sad sight. All you people who would end someones life for property are disgusting and are just as worse as the cops you bash or the government you cry about.

Would I have fought these guys if they had molotovs...depends on where i was situated. In the end I would say no.....I could always get another house....and if I had a family...they would be out and safe. Property is not worth my life or theirs.

You should be a politician.

let me quote you ''So yeah a man who thinks the only way to defend his family is weapon..is a coward in my eyes''

Now let me ask you this; You're with your wife and kids watching t.v when all of a sudden you hear an explosive sound. You go out and realize you're under attack by thieves who throw molotov's at you, would you SERIOUSLY rather get killed and let the cops find you, take 2-3 years of investigation only to let the case unsolved after no hard found evidence than protecting yourself and your family with force THEY are using.

I'm against guns as much as the next guy is but if they have the balls to come to my house and throw molotov's with the intetions to burn us down, i'd rather take the justice in my own hands and shoot those mother... than getting burned down accusing someone to be a coward is just the reflection you give to yourself my friend

reply to post by Jonas86


You know I usually don't hound other members. I believe in just walking away from internet drama. It usually solves nothing and rankles without need. However, bad self defense advice gets people hurt and killed. So, I followed up on your little story.

I called my wife's best friend. She was an Army MP in Germany. She spent a bit of time working in the United States Army Garisson Heidelberg. She also worked at USARAF's headquarters in Vicenza, Italy.

The long and short of it is simple. She said that your information is "a down right lie." She also said that anybody making those claims should be asked to produce a DD214 as proof. I'm sorry but your information does not stand up. Without further proof I am calling your whole claim to service a load of bull.

reply to post by hiii_98

Well, I wouldn't be.. Welcome to the US.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Jonas86

 

Why would you shoot in to a tree for evidence? That makes no sense what does it prove besides the fact that you had enough time to take a pointless shot? To me that says the threat was less than imminent. What if there is no tree within reasonable range?

I'm not saying that you never served in the military. I am saying your claims on MP training make no sense. I have trained with a gentleman that trains the Secret Service in the use of weapons. I have trained with a guy that trains LEOs through out the state, and was in the Marines as an MP. No one I have traind with ever advised a leg shot. Accepted training doctorine, from my experiences and discussions, is that you shoot at the body part that you have the best chance to hit. That is usually the torso.

The point is not to shoot to kill. It is too shoot to stop. However, shots at the arms, legs, shoulders, and head tend to miss much more often. So, shooting for the trunk of the body is often taught as the optimum and first shot.

edit on 26-1-2011 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)

In my country the military police use the aforementioned strategy (verbal warning, shoot in the air (preferably a tree), finally shoot to the leg) as method in situations where a dangerously armed person threatens with violence and won't respond to verbal commands. Usually on a situation where the hostile person is armed with only his fists you use the club to attack (if two verbal warnings don't work) the muscles in his legs, you're (basically) even unallowed to hit bone parts with the club because that could cause bad damage. That is all I can say, maybe you have a different strategy. It's to be noted we very rarely need to take action like that as it's not a country at war and the military police only guard military service areas. We don't need to shoot people dead daily or anything like that.

It's all about the exaggeration of self-defence. In America I think you can kill a person for self-defence. In here, if someone attacks you with a knife and you knock him out for self-defense, and the police find out you've been doing martial arts, you're in trouble. We don't want to make killing legal for self-defense in country such as this that's known to have depressed and violent people.

reply to post by Jonas86


Public places? Looks pretty damn private to me.. Very rare a bullet fired in the air can kill anyways, seriously and a shotgun... Not gunna happen, unless you got deer slugs. Probability is they got buck shot.

All in all, I'm not trying to be a dick. I understand your side as well, its a lot better then half of the people in this thread. I wouldn't kill out of emotion, I'm very calm in intense situations. I would have yelled at them first, with a defensive weapon in hand of course. Then take correct action, come at me and you can stay you there.

[/quote In here, if someone attacks you with a knife and you knock him out for self-defense, and the police find out you've been doing martial arts, you're in trouble.
Wow really? Thats absurd. Whats the point in taking up self-defense class in Canada? Only if they actually shoot you are you allowed to fight back? Yikes. Ya in my state you can shoot a trespasser and that is how I was raised. Although its never happened.

Originally posted by SSDDay
Ya in my state you can shoot a trespasser and that is how I was raised. Although its never happened.

That's some really interesting psychology I think. You could suspect having that allowed would make it intimidating for some, but I think the law kind of doesn't matter, you don't think about it so much in a real situation, it's the personal psyche that makes the decision. A sick person can kill whether it's legal or not, but a healthy person would usually not even if it was legal and he had somewhat of a reason for it. Often it happens some people are incapable of violence even tho they had full right to defend themselves.

Originally posted by LiquidAsh
reply to post by gougitousakusha

 

Do you think there is a reason they bombed him? Every coin has 2 sides. Poor dog though, I have a Husky

You don't go through bombs at someones house he had every right to shoot to kill on his property if it was me I would of killed every single one of them.

reply to post by Jonas86


I was not aware that you were speaking of military experience in another country. If that is so, then I appologize for calling in to question your assertion.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Jonas86

 

I was not aware that you were speaking of military experience in another country. If that is so, then I appologize for calling in to question your assertion.

Haha, no problem. Our military service is nothing compared to yours anyway, except for the winters.