Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson?

reply to post by NewlyAwakened


I would have to agree with that. There has to be good laws in placed, ways for both the majority and the minority have their share, and so forth.

reply to post by Sectumsempra


I do not know, we have a strict Anarcho Capitalist here that walks the halls of ATS. He and I see things pretty straight and narrow.

About the only things that he and I differ on is the court components. I believe that the courts and enforcement of law is about the only things really necessary and he thinks that private courts would be better.

It is a philosophical disagreement that is so close, to be almost irrelevant in modern day parlance. Meaning that we are so close, that todays divide is like the space between galaxies in comparison.

reply to post by Misoir


Hamilton was a elitist, and he was supported by other elitist banker, and business. Hamilton and the Federalist Party were Not strict constitutionalists. Hamilton favored England Jefferson favored France. England controlled the world money supply and Hamilton was a suck up banker.

The old civil war ended the debate that started between Jefferson and Hamilton. Hamilton favored a strong Federal or central government, Jefferson favored States rights and local governments. Hamilton favored a central bank Jefferson didn't. BTW Every central bank that has ever existed has collasped usually associated with fire and death.

We can thank Hamilton and his group of elites for the Whiskey rebellion where a revolt took place over a tax on whiskey, because what do Federalists Want? They want to tax and spend and to meddle in foreign affairs..we can thank Hamilton for creating a de facto war between us and France between 1798 and 1800 We can also thank Hamilton for the alien and sedition act, that jailed journalist for writing unkind articles about our then fearless leader Hamilton....

If you like the way things are now, then I wouldn't be surprised if your a Hamilton fan.

Personally there should be statues in Washington of Burr.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by Misoir

 

Hamilton was a elitist, and he was supported by other elitist banker, and business. Hamilton and the Federalist Party were Not strict constitutionalists. Hamilton favored England Jefferson favored France. England controlled the world money supply and Hamilton was a suck up banker.

You cannot just throw off all banks and declare they are not important just because they have evil in them. Humans have evil in them, should we declare humans unimportant and throw them all to death as well? Banking is important, trade with England was important for us to grow as a nation, and allying with England was a smart move because you do not want to anger them and start a war again (which the Democratic-Republicans did) and if you wanted America to become wealthy and not wallow in poverty we had to make alliance with the nation of wealth and not the nation of the guillotine.

The old civil war ended the debate that started between Jefferson and Hamilton. Hamilton favored a strong Federal or central government, Jefferson favored States rights and local governments. Hamilton favored a central bank Jefferson didn't. BTW Every central bank that has ever existed has collasped usually associated with fire and death.

As if by strong federal or central government you mean one the size appropriated to it in the US Constitution then yes he did support a strong federal government. And while the Central Bank debate is very important I disagree with the private management of any central bank but rather I prefer it to be owned by the government. Every nation needs a central bank.

We can thank Hamilton and his group of elites for the Whiskey rebellion where a revolt took place over a tax on whiskey, because what do Federalists Want? They want to tax and spend and to meddle in foreign affairs..we can thank Hamilton for creating a de facto war between us and France between 1798 and 1800 We can also thank Hamilton for the alien and sedition act, that jailed journalist for writing unkind articles about our then fearless leader Hamilton....

The Seditions act was a major assault on American civil liberties and was in clear violation of the US Constitution. I agree with you on that. However while it was passed by the Federalists I have reason to believe that is a major part of what led Alexander Hamilton to side with Jefferson over Adams in the Election of 1800. As for the taxation it is the ability of the US Federal government to lay and collect taxes, albeit at the time not on income, so a tax on whiskey was not necessarily a bad thing. Those who rebelled were dreamers who didn’t understand the complexities of running a nation.

If you like the way things are now, then I wouldn't be surprised if your a Hamilton fan.

No, I don’t like the way things are at all. We should have a federal government no larger than that appropriated to it in the US Constitution. The states should have the right to invoke the tenth amendment as it is there for a reason. The ninth amendment should also be invoked. There are a lot of drastic cuts that would need to be applied to make America more like Hamilton’s ideals.

Unfortunately what we have gotten is a Jeffersonian dream run amok. Combining the ideology of Jefferson with the control by corporate international elites has led us to the place where we are today.

Personally there should be statues in Washington of Burr.

Yes let us praise a suspected traitor to America with statues in Washington, D.C. Have you forgotten that Burr was probably conspiring to create his own nation in the center of North American continent? He was not great hero except to those who support the murder of an intellectual genius for the fear that Hamilton could come back and knock down Jefferson.

Burr Conspiracy

reply to post by Misoir

Originally posted by Misoir
Had Jefferson been able to install his vision of no standing military we would never have been able to win the War of 1812, which the followers of Jefferson had brought upon us.

You are incorrect and I use the American Revolution as my arguament against what you have stated as fact. We beat the British with militia, not a professional paid standing army. If we did it once we could do it again. The War of 1812 the only state that didn't provide militia troops was New England and many of our private merchant ships joined our navy and conducted raids against British merchant vessels. So the Revolution, and the War of 1812 were fought and won with the blood of our militia.

Your are also incorrect about this being Thomas Jefferson's war, This was President James Madison's War, or Madison's war as the Federalists called it. Britain was our largest trading partner, then they imposed or attempted to impose their will by not allowing us to trade with France because Britain was at war with France, because they wanted to return there Monarchy to power.

Also Jefferson supported the Revolution in France even when the Reign of Terror was underway where anyone who opposed the revolution was murdered by the guillotine with possibly as many as 40,000 people were murdered.

France supported us in our fight for independence. We supported France in their fight for independence. What do you suppose would have happened to the British monarchy and it's government if they were here in America when we rebelled? When the revolution spread from America to France, the citizens that rose up had to fight a government and its systems of control that was among them, not 3000 miles away.

reply to post by Misoir

Originally posted by Misoir
Hamilton didn't write the majority of the Federalist papers for no reason. Alexander Hamilton promoted the United States Constitution and believed the Federal Government should adhere to it strictly. Nothing larger or smaller.

Then you say this as well

If this is what you truly believe then I suggest you crack open a book about Alexander Hamilton. He wrote the majority of the Federalist Papers advocating the ratification of the United States Constitution. Him, and his party, were strict Constitutionalists. They wanted a Federal government no larger and no smaller than that authorized in the US Constitution.

Again you are incorrect, Hamilton's vision was of what today we would call a Imperial Presidency, along with the central bank we have today. Better than that you even contradict yourself here when you said:

reply to post by Misoir

Originally posted by Misoir
The Seditions act was a major assault on American civil liberties and was in clear violation of the US Constitution. I agree with you on that. However while it was passed by the Federalists I have reason to believe that is a major part of what led Alexander Hamilton to side with Jefferson over Adams in the Election of 1800. As for the taxation it is the ability of the US Federal government to lay and collect taxes, albeit at the time not on income, so a tax on whiskey was not necessarily a bad thing. Those who rebelled were dreamers who didn’t understand the complexities of running a nation.

Again you are incorrect about Hamilton and the Federalist Party being strict constitutionalists, because they clearly were not. After the Whiskey Rebellion and the Alien and Sedition's Act there was absolutely no way John Adams was going to win. Hamilton publicly endorsed Jefferson because he absolutely hated Burr and at the time it was possible for the running mate to receive more electoral votes and win the presidency themselves....Hamilton talked $%&# about Burr and went out of his was to ruin or hinder his political career for years before he killed him in a duel, and Hamilton's supporters continued to smear Burrs name long after his death.

The Burr issue is for another thread.

May I?

Thomas Jefferson here please, ah make it a double shot!

We are not trying to say that TJ was perfect oh contrare and thus you need to learn a new debate tactic

I did not see the following being mentioned and I think it relevant.

Initially, the term "federalist" meant someone who thought that the government was Fine under the articles of confederation and who also DID NOT think a convention and then a constitution, was neccessary.

Got that?

Then! Then!!!! Those who wanted to CHANGE/PROGRESS used propaganda and fear, especially Elite fears of slave and worker revolts... heavens forbid.... and then they cleverly took the name Federalists.....
Yet they were the ones who were, by definition, the anti federalists........ and I call this Deception.

Please Read the "Anti federalist" papers and note how every big government "evil" that we must now endure, was forseen by the anti federalists.

On top of that, we are on a conspiracy site, like, what the F, no conspiracy mixed in with our history???
No Deep masonic meaning to the layout of washington DC streets?
Tell me that the Engineer of D.C. was not a mason one more time and I am coming out of this monitor at you in 3D!!!

I mean really! Reallly?

Did anyone watch the history channels GEORGE WASHINGTON the other night?
Yeah, I know, I watched all the MSM 9/11 documentaries and cringed yet the show last night was a tad bit revealing.....

It seems old George married for big money, was ambitious to the point of being a hazard to his own health and to that of others and he went as far as to break the very laws he helped institute in order to maintain control of his slaves.

Sorry, really I do apologize yet it is quite clear that the Anti federalist were correct. We may not have grown to become a super power and we may have had a hard fight or 10 defending ourselves from our loving friends the english et al and we may not have expanded from sea to shing sea etc etc yet who cares when in exchange for these accomplishments we are second class citizens with few if any real rights which all could change with the stroke of a pen or the proclamation of a disaster such as nuclear fallout from japan

Instead of our Fascist wars, because thats what this is ya know, when business is government and vice versa means the same thing, we could have died proudly defending our nation or actually helping nations break free of tyranny. Kinda hard to do that when you operate like a fascist dictatorship that simply changes names every 4 or 8 years.....

I believe that Thomas Jefferson understood the following phrase " All roads lead to Rome".
I believe TJ chose his words carfefully concerning religion.
Compare his religious views to the more conservative and mainstream view of Blind Faith professed by most religions as well as most secret societies that I believe are controlled by the JESUITS, yes, I said Jesuits..... then any image of what was happening in america at that time takes on a complexity that is quite different from the manufactured for mass consumption "official" story.

Catholics versus Protestants round 3 anyone?

A new country - an old war...The Fasci prevails.
Its a conspiracy site... W.....T.......F