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posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by nikkerbokker
One sorority even had their members sign a contract promising to have fake nails & blonde highlights done for rush, as well as tan at least twice per week before rush.

Wow, that's amazing. I've heard of sororities forcing their members to wear makeup and nail polish and dress a certain way for Rush, but that's really over the top. Tanning is sort of a skin cancer risk, too. Wonder if there could be liability issues.




posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by conflation

Originally posted by nikkerbokker
One sorority even had their members sign a contract promising to have fake nails & blonde highlights done for rush, as well as tan at least twice per week before rush.

Wow, that's amazing. I've heard of sororities forcing their members to wear makeup and nail polish and dress a certain way for Rush, but that's really over the top. Tanning is sort of a skin cancer risk, too. Wonder if there could be liability issues.


Well we have pre-determined outfits for Rush, and the VP memberships of every house have to meet with the Greek Life coordinators before rush starts to "patent" their outfits and themes. We have dress checks during rush practice, where we bring all of our outfits for every day and model them for our VPM, she will line everyone up and go to town "Your skirt is too long" "Your pink doesn't match everyone else's pink" "You need to pluck your eyebrows" Yes we spend at least $200 on new clothes every year for rush. And of course we have to wear makeup and do our hair for rush, only certain shades of polish are allowed on our nails, etc.
Yes of course there would be liability issues involved, but sororities are clever, they would just tell you to use fake tanner if you didn't want to be in the sun. While the contract thing happened a couple years ago, this particular house recently installed its own UV-free spray on tan booth just like the kind in tanning salons.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by nikkerbokker
Well we have pre-determined outfits for Rush, and the VP memberships of every house have to meet with the Greek Life coordinators before rush starts to "patent" their outfits and themes. We have dress checks during rush practice, where we bring all of our outfits for every day and model them for our VPM, she will line everyone up and go to town "Your skirt is too long" "Your pink doesn't match everyone else's pink" "You need to pluck your eyebrows" Yes we spend at least $200 on new clothes every year for rush. And of course we have to wear makeup and do our hair for rush, only certain shades of polish are allowed on our nails, etc.

See, that kind of thing is why I couldn't deal with being in a sorority. I'd be inclined to channel Theresa Kerry and say, "Shove it."
But this would make an interesting story for a campus paper.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 10:03 PM
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She left out all the skits and songs they have to learn. The girls here have to have a rush workshop a week befor.
The most us guys did before rush was 10 minutes before find out who is coming to the house.



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by qwerty99
She left out all the skits and songs they have to learn. The girls here have to have a rush workshop a week befor.
The most us guys did before rush was 10 minutes before find out who is coming to the house.


You have no idea...our rush workshops start the previous semester and we have them for 8 hours a day 4 days a week before rush, its nuts. We sing songs, learn conversation "stuff", plan for house tours, philanthropy day...not to mention the fun process that is recruitment!!! I don't think most people realize how much time and effort it can take. And it can be really heartbreaking sometimes to put forth so much effort, meet a girl you really like and have her drop your house, a lot of younger girls get very upset during their first recruitment because they meet their "future lil sis" only to find out she dropped the next day. LOL girls from the house still call me "Nikki what're the words to this song again?" and of course despite my bi*ching and moaning you know I'm still there helping as an alumna


OK now let loose with your flames
I feel them coming...



posted on Jul, 27 2004 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by nikkerbokker
[
You have no idea...our rush workshops start the previous semester and we have them for 8 hours a day 4 days a week before rush, its nuts. We sing songs, learn conversation "stuff", plan for house tours, philanthropy day...not to mention the fun process that is recruitment!!! I don't think most people realize how much time and effort it can take. And it can be really heartbreaking sometimes to put forth so much effort, meet a girl you really like and have her drop your house, a lot of younger girls get very upset during their first recruitment because they meet their "future lil sis" only to find out she dropped the next day.


Do the songs and skits even make that much of a difference? No offense, but some of them (in general, not your sorority specifically) sounded kind of dumb. And also, I don't understand why sororities can pour so much time and money into stuff like songs and matching clothes and then still have some hideous websites. (Not all of them are that bad, but a lot of them are.)

Of course, most sorority women probably have different ideas than I do about what's cool.
I think it would be funny to see Monty Python-themed skits - for example, someone saying, "I never wanted to be a lumberjack. I always wanted to be ... a Sigma K!" (Then they could have a song to the tune of "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.") But this probably explains why I'm not Greek.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 12:10 AM
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Sororities spend so much for just Rush I wonder...and I think it would be a great experiement.

Since all the sororities have a quota for choosing members, why spend all the money when they are going to get members anyway. It seems it would be just as easy to give out flyers saying what their values are and what the sorority has done recently (philanthropy and other events) and then just converse and learn more about the person going through rush. Getting to know them is what it's all about. You would get the members and save tons of money, maybe lower the dues a bit or have an extra social or sisterhood event, or bring in a speaker on women's issues or greek issues.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by slickwilly95991
It seems it would be just as easy to give out flyers saying what their values are and what the sorority has done recently (philanthropy and other events) and then just converse and learn more about the person going through rush. Getting to know them is what it's all about. You would get the members and save tons of money, maybe lower the dues a bit or have an extra social or sisterhood event, or bring in a speaker on women's issues or greek issues.

But that would make too much sense.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by conflation

Originally posted by slickwilly95991
It seems it would be just as easy to give out flyers saying what their values are and what the sorority has done recently (philanthropy and other events) and then just converse and learn more about the person going through rush. Getting to know them is what it's all about. You would get the members and save tons of money, maybe lower the dues a bit or have an extra social or sisterhood event, or bring in a speaker on women's issues or greek issues.

But that would make too much sense.


I think you are right.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 01:10 AM
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Nikki, I saw your post somewhere about hazing. I thought I would bring the discussion here because it is a really interesting topic that I feel needs to be addressed and stopped.

Here is the definition of hazing. You will find that all states have a hazing law on the books and some are close to this. This is the general statement of hazing by the NIC, I think...

Hazing is defined as any action taken or situation created intentionally, whether on or off Fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities and situations include paddling in any form, creation of excessive fatigue, physical and psychological shocks, quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities, kidnapping of actives by pledges or pledges by actives as well as the forced consumption of alcohol, wearing apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste, engaging in any public stunts and buffoonery, morally degrading or humiliating games and activities, late work sessions which interfere with academic activity, and any other activities which are not consistent with Fraternal law, Ritual or policy with the regulations and policies of the host educational institution.

You mentioned something in the other post about not having the new members or actives wear the badge. Or maybe forced to wear the badge, but I don't think that the pin story that you explained is hazing. I fail to see how it is humiliating (because you shouldn't be in the org if you are embarassed by it). The part about wearing apparel doesn't apply to the pin wearing. It mostly applies to having men wear women's clothing, or having something written on his forehead to class, or similiar act.

Then you mentioned that having a big brother or big sister was considered by hazing in some chapters. I also disagree that having a big brother or sister is hazing. It's when things get out of hand and the big brother starts making the little brother do inappropriate stuff that it is considered hazing. Big brothers are usefull in giving the new member an outlet and having someone to look up to. About the family stuff, the only thing that may single out people are the older brothers or sisters who don't have a little brother. In my and other chapters I know, the new member chooses the bug brother. I'm sure it's different in other places, but the point is that a new member is not the one being singled out, the active is, and indirectly, because he has a big brother.

We discussed earlier about little sisters to fraternity guys. I just read the part about little sisters in the book "Pledged" and you can see why national fraternities do not condone such actions. If what was discussed in the book was even halfway truth, that would be pretty bad. Obviously everything in the book is considered hazing.

You also mentioned the common scenario about having the new members clean the house. Obviously this falls under the "any other activities which are not consistent with Fraternal law, Ritual or policy with the regulations and policies of the host educational institution". It is necessary for the place to be clean but everyone must contribute to this process. This is a viable hazing incident.

You mentioned that it was considered hazing at your school if a new member was not allowed to wear the letters or coat of arms or whatever. That doesn't fall under the definition of hazing and I actually fail to see how that harms the new member at all. It's a custom adopted by a lot of organizations and is justly used to identify members from non-members. It would be wrong for a new member who is not justly a member of the fraternity to be wearing the letters and then go over and rape or kill a bunch of people, or tell off a teacher. It would make the fraternity look bad when the person is not a member.

Which brings me to the last portion about the term pledge and new member. The word pledge has really run its course. If you look at it, it means the person has agreed to abide by the fraterity's rules and policies. Why use new member? Because it more closely resembles what the fraternity wants to instill; that the person is a new member to the fraternity. He is the same as an active member, only that he has not gone through the initiatory process. He does not have to go through the events and activities that the pledges once went through up until 1990. Fraternities such as Sig Ep and Theta Xi go right into the intiation after a person signs with the fraternity. They don't have a formal new member education process. Also, "pledge education" was a way for actives to "teach" how the fraternity works in a different way, not necessarily the government aspect of it. If you know what I mean.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 01:12 AM
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Man that was a long post. I think that's my record.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 01:16 AM
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Slick and conflation....I agree as well.

I don't know why the do it how they do, its ridiculous. I don't think I met a single girl who honestly liked rush on either side. Yeah its neat getting to see the different houses and ooh and ahh over ABC's house or XYZ's cute outfits and hear all the songs about how great each sorority is. But like you said conflation, it really makes no difference. No one says things like "I chose ABC over XYZ because ABC did Charlie's Angels and that's my favorite movie!" My school finally pulled the skit day (thank goodness).
It is such a waste of money. One year the Panhellenic chapters voted and narrowly won to ban balloons from rush events. So that saved us a couple hundred in balloons and helium tanks, because of course we used new balloons every day, plus the time it takes to inflate 500 balloons the deflate them and clean them up. My house was ecstatic and didn't miss the balloons. However next year many sororities complained that it just wasn't the same without balloons, so the ban was dropped. We hate the balloons, but again we have to do it to compete with everyone else. Sadly enough girls going through rush notice things like that, and for houses not on top, its important to show that we're just the same as the pretty popular ABCs next door. Again back to all of that superficial stuff... its all so ridiculous, I better get to bed before I go on another rant



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 10:09 AM
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Slick did you type a hole in your keyboard??? I saw your post last night but took one look at it and thought "OK that has to wait til tomorrow for my response" So now I climb back onto the soapbox...

Yeah I have seen the statement about hazing before. For relevance to my previous post, I summed it up into anything that differentiates a new member from an active. I assumed you all would know I meant the obvious things you stated: mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule and all the other stuff that we know as hazing.

I didn't mention anything in regards to the active badge. Of course only actives are allowed to wear it. But I know for certain we were informed that to be "forced" or "required" to wear anything, including the pledge pin, was hazing and so we therefore had to "choose" to wear it (same with the ribbons we get before our pledge pins). Our pledge educator told us this and I know I have seen rules in writing regarding the pledge pin, although of course when I go to find them I can't find my copy of the Promise book
Like I said, I thought this was kind of weird. I never would have questioned wearing the pledge pin.

I think I didn't clarify myself. In a sorority, you get a Big Sis. In a fraternity, you get a Big Bro. Of course these programs are beneficial to new members, I adored my Big Sis. What I meant was, fraternity boys having big/lil sis's and vice versa. This has been an ongoing issue at least at my school. A couple of fraternities have gotten into big trouble over this, because the "revealings" usually involve lots of drinking, etc I've been to them and I will admit they were a blast, all the guys had a great time, if someone was seen getting out of control they were told no more alcohol. but if you asked me if hazing went on...do dogs pee on fire hydrants? National HQ would have shut them down in 2 hot seconds. And of course the instance in Pledged, must be either unique to their school or their area, because even though we do the Big Sis/Lil Bro Big Bro/Lil Sis thing, and a lot of guys will get Big/Lil Sis's for their bros who they think are cute or who their bro will like, but never is a girl flat outn expected to sleep with her Big or Lil Bro. I was sickened when I read that part, horrified and disturbed. Our Big/Lil Sis/Bro night was hazing yes, but it was fun as hell, nothing like some of the twisted stuff Robbins puts in PLedged. Furthermore for what its worth, no sorority girl I know has ever had a undesireable experience with Big/Lil bros at my campus, and just about everyone I know has had at least one. Sadly I have noticed at my campus at least, the majority of sexual assaults aren't on sorority girls, they are usually on freshmen girls who can't handle their liquor, show up at a fraternity party lose their friends and end up blacking out. Sorority girls are usually more familiar with the fraternities, have a better idea of who has a bad rep, and of course, sorority girls will explode if they don't travel in packs of 5 or more at all time. Some houses will have girls not in sororities be their Big/Lil Sis' and usually you can tell which ones they are because they get the most drunk and obnoxious. At least with your sisters, if you start getting loud and taking your clothes off or something, they will stop you before you get into trouble. And my sisters at least, were good about other things too, wouldn't let you go off with a guy you just met or whatever.

OK I know it says somewhere in our rules that you can't ban a new member from wearing the Greek letters, if she so chooses. To tell her she can only wear Sigma Kappa spelled out is, yup, hazing. But I know for instance, Kappa Alpha Theta's by-laws state that new members are NOT allowed to wear anything other than the word Theta on their clothes until they are initiated. So I doubt that the wearing of the letters thing is a national rule Slick, I think it varies by organization. Again this didn't matter to me, as I saw no point in wearing letters I didn't yet earn or know the significance of.


I have heard all the arguments about the word "pledge" and why it is considered dated, and they are all valid points. But c'mon its just a word, no one says "pledge" to be mean or derogatory. Perhaps I'm just bugged because I had been in the house for 3 years when Panhel slapped all these rules on us suddenly, it was no longer rush but "recruitment" and you can't say pledge you have to say "new member" So I would be rushing girls and say "When you ple...I mean when you are a new member here" "Our pled...er, our new members do this..." All because Panhel was making a big whoop out of the word, and told potential new members (PNMs...they're not rushees!!!!) that houses were specificaly informed not to use that word. I know there's more meaning behind the switch in terms but when I see it I'm sorry, its a word. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. We don't have to refer to actives as "old members". I personally don't see what the deal is, but out of respect for national rules I go along with it.
Now since it would have been too easy for me to just let my ranting end right there, I want to bring up another point. Slick maybe you can help me with this one:
Obviously sororities only invite girls to be members, and fraternities only invite guys. Now obviously one could detect "discrimination" against the sexes here, what if a girl wants to join Sigma Chi, or a guy wants to join Tri-Delta, how can national "legally" turn them away without getting slapped with sex discrimination? Once a while back some of our old alumna came and explained to us how the whole process works, that if a guy ever really wanted to be a Sigma Kappa they would have to institute this whole process in which alumna meet the PNMs and in order to be bid, a PNM has to get "sponsered" by an alumna, therefore of course a male just wouldn't get sponsered and therefore its not discrimination. I'm sure there was more to it than that but like I said it was a while ago. But Slick I'm sure you know, what loophole to GLOs use to avoid that? I know when I was in high school we had an instance of a couple girls wanting to join the football and baseball teams and they had to let them because otherwise it was discrimination. So how do we get away with maintaining our single-sex organizations? Thanks



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 02:51 PM
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Hazing as we vied it was the doing something you did not want to do. Well if that was the case then the whole pledge process would be hazing, including the meetings.



posted on Jul, 28 2004 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by nikkerbokker
Slick maybe you can help me with this one:
Obviously sororities only invite girls to be members, and fraternities only invite guys. Now obviously one could detect "discrimination" against the sexes here, what if a girl wants to join Sigma Chi, or a guy wants to join Tri-Delta, how can national "legally" turn them away without getting slapped with sex discrimination? Once a while back some of our old alumna came and explained to us how the whole process works, that if a guy ever really wanted to be a Sigma Kappa they would have to institute this whole process in which alumna meet the PNMs and in order to be bid, a PNM has to get "sponsered" by an alumna, therefore of course a male just wouldn't get sponsered and therefore its not discrimination. I'm sure there was more to it than that but like I said it was a while ago. But Slick I'm sure you know, what loophole to GLOs use to avoid that? I know when I was in high school we had an instance of a couple girls wanting to join the football and baseball teams and they had to let them because otherwise it was discrimination. So how do we get away with maintaining our single-sex organizations? Thanks


Since greek organizations, or any fraternal or benevolent organization is a private organization, it can determine what it expect of its members along with the requirements that make someone eligible. Sex discrimination only applies to the government and public companies. (Note: once you become an incorporated business in the state you are no longer technically private. And no business can do business without being incorporated, so the law applies to work)

An example is the recent Supreme Court case you may remember from a couple of years ago where the Boy Scouts kicked out a member who was gay. The Supreme Court said that since they are a private organization they can discriminate their membership based upon the groups ideals and values. Same goes for fraternities and sororities and the Masons, etc.

You can even take this to churches. You can't discriminate based on religion, but churches can. There was a case where the mormon church fired their janitor because he was no longer practicing the faith. They were able to choose employees who belonged to the church and discriminate against non-believers.

The KKK can discriminate against anyone not white, black fraternities do not have to accept anything but black (although most do), Jewish fraternities do not have to accept a "gentile" (I just like saying gentile).

You may ask why the law doesn't apply since the school where the fraternity is at is usually a public college ran by or funded by the state. Well, that's where the freedom to associate comes into play. Any organization can associate and determine their membership. If a school did not allow a group to associate, they would be violating the law and the school's academic freedom policy (which every school has to promote a diversity of ideals).

The converse can occur at a private school. A private school decides the school's policies and can discriminate just like the mormon church did. You may have heard of Roger Williams University which only allows white christians. They are allowed to discriminate based on their values and policies as a private school. (That's also why schools can pray and have religious events without government intrusion.)

This is also the reason why you have heard some private schools dropping the greek system. They can choose to rid the campus of all male, all female, all black groups, but they still can't violate the freedom to associate. To get through this, the school imposes a policy that any campus group may not discriminate based on race, gender, all the rest of them. That's why you have seen co-ed organizations develop on campuses like Dartmouth.

I hope this helps with your question.

I'm taking off for a conference so I will be gone for awhile. But when I come back I will write about more on what you said. Enjoy.



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 10:54 AM
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Jeez Slick who needs a lawyer when I've got you around to explain all this stuff to me


Thanks for all the info. Like I said, when the old alumna were telling us about the whole ordeal to go through if a guy decided to rush a sorority, I thought it must be simpler than that whole process of getting "sponsers". I can't imagine fraternities and sororities get very many sexual discrimination suits against members of the opposite sex trying to join.

I always joked that if a guy went through rush I would give him a bid. Just the humor alone would almost be worth it!!!! Guys, what if I came up to your house and wanted to join...would I get a bid?
Yeah right you would think I was joking or die laughing.

OK enough joking around. Have fun at your conferences Slick. The board with be quiet without you!!!



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 02:14 PM
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Come Saturday afternoon Ill be sitting in the beautiful Rocky Mountains at my own convention sippin a cold one and thinking about all of the great people on this board.
Hold em down till we get back Nikki.



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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which god do you worship masonries? The Lord Jesus Christ or Lucifer?



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 02:22 PM
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Where did that statement come from?? The masonic threads are that way===>


[edit on 7/29/04 by Star_and_Crescent]



posted on Jul, 29 2004 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by foxtrot_uniform
which god do you worship masonries? The Lord Jesus Christ or Lucifer?


Although I am not a "masonry" I think it is safe for me to say that most organizations discussed here don't worship any god, idol, etc. They may have been based on religion or have religious ideals, or have a god or figure that has significant meaning or is honored in their ritual. Many fraternities and sororities for instance have Christian ideals, many include readings from the Bible in their ritual, etc. But as for actual worshipping, in the true sense of the word...I think you're on the wrong board


[edit on 29-7-2004 by nikkerbokker]






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