New College Fraternity thread

It would be nice to see everyone get on the same track when it comes to pledging periods, but I have a feeling that whatever time is mandated, the chapters will not adhere to it fully without some national intervention. We can't even get our chapters to stop hazing. At least the new chapters (those installed in the last 10 years or so don't have that problem, it's the 100 year old chapters who don't understand that they could lose one of the longest traditions if they continue it.

I wish there were more alumni involved in the process to try and get rid of this. There is no point for it, but it seems like the actives of some chapters feel entitled to it, regardless if it will mean the end of the chapter.

I was a pledge for 9 mths when I came through. I would have been grateful for a 60 day pledge program. I think that the new 60 day program for KS will be great once all the chapters have done it a few semesters. I think that all fraternities will benefit from reduced pledge periods. The shorter time doesnt cheat chapters from learning about their members. It just means that they will actually have to get up off the couch and work at it. This will be a suprising concept for a few people, they will actually have to work at being members. I believe that it will go a long way towards eliminating hazing and helping to restore the name of fraternities across the nation.

Its good to be back everyone. Colorado was absolutely beautiful. I have never seen mountains like that. If anyone gets the chance to go they need to check out Keystone Resort it was the shizzle...

It was definately a great weekend, I became well re-acquainted with my boys Johnny Walker and Jack Daniels again. (My head still hurts)

Great to hear from everyone and I look forward to getting down to the issues again.

Back to the subject of pledge periods, here is something I have observed on my campus. I don't know what everyone else has experienced, but I personally think this is the most f--ed up thing:

Many fraternities have the whole blackball deal. Since we don't have it in my sorority (we can only vote as a chapter to expel a member, and even that is rare), basically what I have pieced together about it is, if out of the entire chapter, ONE active has an objection to a pledge, he can "ball" him and the pledge is dropped. No questions asked. That could be 99 actives who love Pledge Paul and 1 who, for whatever reason, doesn't want him in the house, and so he is dropped. Of course when we have sorority rush, our girls can have a "moral objection" to a girl coming through rush and we will, based on that sister's request, not invite the girl back. But you can only give an MO if the girl in question, say, slept with your boyfriend or is a known drug addict, not just because "I had a class with her and she is SO annoying"

But anyway back to my hypothetical about Pledge Paul. So say Paul is a good pledge, always shows up for mandatory events/meetings, gets his interviews done, is a good student, etc. Goes through Big Bro revealing, lives in the house for Inspo week & endures whatever the actives do to the pledges during that time and is termed a "neophyte" not quite active yet. Then, and this can happen up to pretty much the day before initiation, after Paul has done his pledge duties, some actives decide Paul isn't a good ABC after all and blackball him. This happens in my boyfriend's house and a couple other fraternities on campus ALL THE TIME. I personally would be furious if I went through weeks of pledging, waiting for initiation, only to be told days before that "Sorry some members think you don't fit in after all, see ya" I mean its bad enough to have to tell a pledge 2 weeks into pledging that he has been balled, but to someone who has already done all the activities, spent the time and energy, who obviously worked hard to earn membership? Its messed up. While I have never asked, I would hope that these guys are at least refunded any money they may have had to pay to the organization. Is this sort of thing regulated at all by national HQs? Has anyone else done this or heard of it happening?

Originally posted by slickwilly95991
It would be nice to see everyone get on the same track when it comes to pledging periods, but I have a feeling that whatever time is mandated, the chapters will not adhere to it fully without some national intervention. We can't even get our chapters to stop hazing. At least the new chapters (those installed in the last 10 years or so don't have that problem, it's the 100 year old chapters who don't understand that they could lose one of the longest traditions if they continue it.

I wish there were more alumni involved in the process to try and get rid of this. There is no point for it, but it seems like the actives of some chapters feel entitled to it, regardless if it will mean the end of the chapter.

Old habits die hard Slick. The problem is, many of these houses have the mentality of "It was done to me, so its OK to do it to them because someday they'll do it too" Which of course is ridiculous. We're humans, not sheep in a herd who do what the others do "just because" so why is it so hard for some people to break the chain? In all honesty, I don't know.

My chapter is 54 years old now, not too old but not young. We have many chapter traditions, and up until recently many of these traditions were in the form of hazing. As a pledge, I was hazed. We hazed until my second year in the house. And when I say I was hazed, please don't think it was anything along the lines of "Drink til you puke" or the infamous fat-circling or sexual favors for frat guys. In all honesty a lot of the "hazing" was fun, I enjoyed going on scavenger hunts to fraternities with my pledge sisters looking for random things or getting presents for my Big Sis (I mean hell Big Sis' spend $$HUNDREDS$$ on their littles). Of course just because I had fun doesn't mean it should be OK, I understand why national HQ has their rules and all.

Of course we had a couple of not-so-fun nights during pledging too, I wont go into detail but in no way did it involve drinking/illegal stuff or physical harm, mostly just psychological/yelling stuff. Not fun but definitely something anyone could handle. Anyway so like sheep, we continue these traditions until the next fall. After the Fall 2000 pledges were initiated, one of our alumni advisors showed up and asked to speak to our new actives alone. We as actives didn't know what was up until our advisor came back and basically told us one of our members had told her what we were doing, she just confirmed it with our new actives, what the f-- were we thinking?? Yeah you tell me if you ever feel as stupid as we did when we got busted, and never even saw it coming. Suddenly 60+ girls were sitting there realizing that a night of yelling at pledges- something none of us wanted to do in the first place but felt we had to because it was "tradition" and it was done to us- was thisclose to costing us our charter. Luckily word didn't get out around campus about us being busted, and we did a 180 in our house so fast you would not believe it. I am proud to say we have not hazed since, and I personally feel my house is stronger for it. The last pledge class to be hazed just went alum, so I feel/hope the outlook for our house is positive, as no current actives will know what used to go on and/or feel a need to continue it. I always hear about "so and so is in trouble for hazing again" and I can't believe it. There wasn't going to be an "again" for us, if we slipped up once we woulda been done with. So it amazes me that so many chapters can get in trouble so many times for the SAME THING and barely get any punishment. My chapter had to attend so many programs on hazing, etc and that was a small price to pay in my mind. One thing I have noticed tho, is that the houses getting in trouble for hazing on my campus are usually the strongest orgs nationwide. Coincidence??

Anyway that's my $.02 on the hazing subject. Anyone else?

In my chapter we run a 100% bid policy so if one active does not like you he can blackball you. However once someone does get a bid and starts the pledge program it now takes a 2/3 vote of the active chapter. This does not get use very often but as long as i have been around we have never balled some one right before initiation unless they did not make grades which is only a 2.35 so thats rare we do that. We try to make any active who wants someone balled to stand up and tell us why and to talk to the pledge to see if maybe it was just a misunderstanding or something before we do anything.

As far as hazing go we do not haze at all. When i went through there were a couple of things that might have be considered hazing I do not feel that i was hazed. However call me crazy but after talking to others in my chapter (older guys) and guys from different chapters i do kinda feel that i missed out on something since i wasnt hazed. A few of my pledge brothers me inculded dont feel we really earned out letters sometimes but whatever that parts over now i love my GLO. But then we had this one pledge a couple of rushes ago that wanted to be hazed and we would not do it so he try to haze himself. I understand him a little a would like to see a limited amount of hazing going on but if that happened then later some one would try and take it farther and farther and then the next thing you know its out of hand.

Originally posted by nikkerbokker
So it amazes me that so many chapters can get in trouble so many times for the SAME THING and barely get any punishment. My chapter had to attend so many programs on hazing, etc and that was a small price to pay in my mind. One thing I have noticed tho, is that the houses getting in trouble for hazing on my campus are usually the strongest orgs nationwide. Coincidence??

It seems like there may be a sense of entitlement among some of the stronger chapters. Sort of like the idea that lots of people want to be a part of it, so pledges should be willing to put up with whatever the chapter dishes out. In fact, I'm wondering if going through hazing contributes to a sense of being "special." It would be interesting to see whether there is any correlation in frats between hazing and date rape.

Originally posted by conflation

It seems like there may be a sense of entitlement among some of the stronger chapters. Sort of like the idea that lots of people want to be a part of it, so pledges should be willing to put up with whatever the chapter dishes out. In fact, I'm wondering if going through hazing contributes to a sense of being "special." It would be interesting to see whether there is any correlation in frats between hazing and date rape.

Conflation, you should check into the book "Pledged" we discussed it somewhere on this board but didn't go too much into the fraternity/date rape thing. Robbins mentions in the book about how at some campuses fraternities get Big/Lil Sis' for the exclusive purpose of sex, basically. Although banned nationally, fraternities at my campus still did Big/Lil Sis, and of course in the drunken mess many Big Sis' hook up with their Lil Bros/vice versa but it certainly isnt a date rape situation. And as far as I know about sororities on my campus, while some haze badly and some not at all, I have never heard an instance of fraternity guys being involved in sorority hazing, save one event we used to do when I was hazed as a pledge (guys were involved, nothing sexual tho, they just quizzed us on the Greek alphabet and stuff). Of course just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

But as a side note, most instances of date rape on my campus aren't by fraternity members, though they usually occur at fraternity parties. The parties are supposed to be guest list/Greek only, but that doesn't stop anyone from jumping fences or sneaking in. We get all sorts of uninvited characters at these parties, most notably Marines (they are harmless tho, can be annoying and persistent with girls so most know to steer clear) but also "ghetto" gangsta types that stand out like crazy, you take one look/talk to these guys and right away realize they aren't students, just looking for a party to crash and girls to hook up with. These are always the jackasses that start fights, or that get turned away at the door and show up with guns (yes that has happened). That is why my school has gotten so strict about predetermined guest lists for parties and stuff. But it still happens that young girls, intelligence and judgement clouded by the excessiv drinking, will wander into a party, get seperated from their friends, and....Its the same story over and over. Its really lame when I see a headline in the paper "STUDENT RAPED AT XYZ FRATERNITY HOUSE" then once you read the article it states that while it did occur at the fraternity house, the description of the guy is blah blah and all members of the fraternity have been ruled out as suspects. But still, why feel the need to include XYZ's good name in a headline about rape?

Also, and this hasn't happened recently but for a while it was like the Salem witch hunt...But for a while about 4 cases popped up within 4 weeks, all along this same story line:
Girl gets drunk at dorm with friends. Girl goes to party with friends. Girl loses friends. Girl is drunk, gets sick, passes out, etc. Party is over, the fraternity guys are cleaning up and lo and behold some girl is passed out in the party room/bathroom/courtyard. Unable to find her friends, they do what any decent person would do: Make sure she is OK at first, then put her on a couch or someone's bed until she wakes up & can go home. Girl wakes up, doesn't know where she is except that its in someone else's bed/couch/whatever, can't remember what happened the night before, and runs right to the police and says "I woke up at XYZ fraternity on some guy's couch and I was really drunk and don't remember what happened!!!" Next thing you know, she's crying rape at XYZ fraternity. Now don't get me wrong, rape is a brutal horrible crime and under no circumstances do I feel its OK for a guy to have sex with a girl who is drunk even if she says yes. And I would feel horrible to doubt a legit victim's story. But I kid you not, that exact scenario happened and like 3 different fraternities got accused of rape by 18 year old girls who passed out so she wasn't sure, but she thinks so. And then of course the houses also get in trouble for serving alcohol to minors, even when these girls SHOW UP drunk. Never once have I gotten so drunk to the point that I lost my friends and wound up passing out at a fraternity house, completely blacking out what happened that night. Nor has it happened to a single girl in my house. If that's happening to all these girls, perhaps they should've stopped at AA before going to the campus police.

Originally posted by wvstreaker
However call me crazy but after talking to others in my chapter (older guys) and guys from different chapters i do kinda feel that i missed out on something since i wasnt hazed. A few of my pledge brothers me inculded dont feel we really earned out letters sometimes but whatever that parts over now i love my GLO.

I agree with you. I feel like you should have to earn your letters... it'll mean more to you when you are initiated. And by that, basically I mean you should have learn some history and things about the GLO... and put up with a little crap from guys who've done the same. I wouldn't consider anything I had to do as hazing. Yelling and stuff is part of it... if you can't handle things like that, you just need to stay in your dorm. It's nothing more than your high school football coach chewin' you out for messin' up. It's just like everything else in life, if you take every criticsm personal, you're gonna be one messed up individual. Grow some thick skin, whatever you gotta do. No one's making people pledge or even do things considered to be hazing. If they don't agree with doing something, just leave. I wouldn't want to be a part of something that forced people to do something I didn't agree with anyhow.

And as far as physical "activity" goes, well, I'm okay with that to an extent. Obviously I don't think anyone would agree with something that would cause any physical harm to someone. I wouldn't want someone to run 5 miles if they had a heart problem, or want a guy to jump in a lake if he couldn't swim... yeah, that's hazing. And I really don't agree with forcing anyone to drink or do anything illegal like drugs or stealing things... that's stupidity. But for example, if it's just brothers and pledges at the house one day and a brother asks you to name your founders and you don't know, well personally I think you're getting off easy if you have to do push-ups or something like that. That's a fraternity ladies and gentlemen. If I had wanted it easy, I would've joined an honor society.

I will go ahead and tell yall that they haze at our chapter and at the other chapters at our school. I think about every frat here hazes execpt farmhouse and lamda chi cause they are scared to run people off. There were times where hazing brought us together but it also pisses you off towards the actives hazing you. "Why would you want to be a part of something that craps on you everytime you step in the house?" This was my thought everyday during pledging. We also had encuraging talks also to stay. These helped me with some friends who were actives. I have realized that their is some need in hazing but most of it is for the hardazzes. i never hazed any one i just stood around.

I agree with ya vegas, you speakth the truth. You have to earn your way in there, there is no reason why a fraternity should have to give thier letters to anyone who doesn't want to earn them. You can put up with a little crap for a semester to earn life long friends. You always respect what you earn, and don't care about stuff givin to ya

[edit on 4-8-2004 by qwerty99]

[edit on 4-8-2004 by qwerty99]

The black ball thing doesn't happen at our chapter. To get a bid you must have a majority vote, then it takes 2/3 of a vote to cut someone. But once you get to a certain part of pledging you can not get cut, this is about 3/4 of the way in. We have never cut someone while i have been there yet, we have tried but it didn't pass.

Originally posted by nikkerbokker
Conflation, you should check into the book "Pledged" we discussed it somewhere on this board but didn't go too much into the fraternity/date rape thing.

Thanks, nikkerbokker, I have read it. I'm not sure how accurate it is. To "protect" the subjects, she avoided mentioning the school or the sorority involved. It's understandable that an author wouldn't want to get the subjects in trouble, but at the same time, this gives Robbins a lot of room to fabricate. Who's going to come forward and challenge her?

It does seem like people are quick to believe scandalous things, whether they make sense or not. It sounds like that was the case with the drunk women at the frat houses.

Originally posted by conflation
It seems like there may be a sense of entitlement among some of the stronger chapters. Sort of like the idea that lots of people want to be a part of it, so pledges should be willing to put up with whatever the chapter dishes out. In fact, I'm wondering if going through hazing contributes to a sense of being "special." It would be interesting to see whether there is any correlation in frats between hazing and date rape.

I searched my school's website hoping to find a link to one of the articles in which a girl accussed fraternity members of rape, after she got drunk & blacked out and couldn't recall what happened. I didn't find any but here are a couple articls I found to be relevant anyway. This first one here is about a forum held at my school, 2 members of each fraternity were required to attend. The discussion was rape, and since the main attendees were men, it focused more on how men can avoid putting themselves in uncertain situations in which a woman might cry foul play. It says in the article the speakers had to ask some members to stop laughing during the presentation. I don't know what exactly there could be to laugh about at a discussion about rape, but read the article for yourselves:
thedailyaztec.com...

Another one here is written by an opinion columnist who I believe is in a fraternity but uses an alias so I can't be certain. Some cynical humor here and things I personally don't agree with, but nonetheless he offers a comical view of the scenario I mentioned before: girl getting drunk and waking up next to a guy she doesn't know, claiming its rape. Anyway check it out and let me know what you think. thedailyaztec.com...

My chapter uses the blackball system, although I don't believe they've actually used it recently, the option is still there. You're voted on a few days before initiation and if you get 2 or more blackballs, tough luck. It's scary to think about as a pledge let me tell ya. But honestly, you'd have to do something really stupid to get 2 blackballs in the final vote. Everyone else has been there before and really wouldn't want to blackball someone that late either. Basically, we can depledge anyone at anytime throughout the semester... so if you make it that long, there's not much to worry about. The way I see it, it's more of a mental thing... I was threatened with blackballs all semester knowing good and well I wouldn't get the 2 needed to get booted. And even in the end, I got one from one of my friends because "the man needs a blackball." So it really isn't used much at all, but then again it could happen this next semester, who knows.

Originally posted by 71Vegas

I agree with you. I feel like you should have to earn your letters... it'll mean more to you when you are initiated. And by that, basically I mean you should have learn some history and things about the GLO... and put up with a little crap from guys who've done the same.

Put up with a little crap? How is that not hazing? What part of your fraternity's values accepts hazing? Or yelling at a pledge? I "earned my letters" when I passed the initiation exam and took the oath. Call me stupid, but that's technically all that is required to earn your letters.

I wouldn't consider anything I had to do as hazing. Yelling and stuff is part of it... if you can't handle things like that, you just need to stay in your dorm. It's nothing more than your high school football coach chewin' you out for messin' up. It's just like everything else in life, if you take every criticsm personal, you're gonna be one messed up individual. Grow some thick skin, whatever you gotta do. No one's making people pledge or even do things considered to be hazing. If they don't agree with doing something, just leave. I wouldn't want to be a part of something that forced people to do something I didn't agree with anyhow.

Does your fraternity openly state that they haze their pledges? During rush is there a huge sign saying "RUSH XYZ, WE HAZE"? Pledges come into the fraternity thinking there is no hazing, because every organization (and their national counterpart) says there is no hazing. I wouldn't join an organization if it allowed hazing. And the state and college and national organization would allow that chapter to continue either. "No one's making people pledge or even do things considered to be hazing". You may want to look at your national org's definition of hazing, your college's definition of hazing, and your state's definition of hazing. Yelling at someone is hazing, making them do physical activity is hazing.

But for example, if it's just brothers and pledges at the house one day and a brother asks you to name your founders and you don't know, well personally I think you're getting off easy if you have to do push-ups or something like that. That's a fraternity ladies and gentlemen. If I had wanted it easy, I would've joined an honor society.

Actually this is not a fraternity, it's a hazing incident. I got hazed. I did the push ups and sit-ups, we ate some horrible food all mixed together, we were hearded into a small room and made to stay up all night, we were placed in a trashcan full of ice water and kept there until we could name all the founders and recited the creed or values. That's not exactly brotherhood and it also places the values to shame when you brothers are hazing you while proclaiming virtuousness. When I got into power, that all ended. Now we are clean and have true brotherhood and it has done wonders. Recruitment shot through the roof, we initiate more, grades went up, national awards came in.

Just wish others could get it through their thick skull that hazing is not cool and doesn't promote fraternity or brotherhood.

Would you haze your newborn son or daughter before he/she was able to take your last name? You may think that is asanine, but the analogy holds true. It's the same thing. You are hazing someone who you will potentially call a brother/sister, and the hazing is to insure they "earn their letters".

That's your opinion, and I respect it... so here's my opinion. I really don't care what my school or state's position on hazing is. Fraternities are not sponsored by schools or states. In reality, they have about as much business in my Fraternity house as they do in my Church (absolutely none if you didn't get it). According to the guidlines that I have from my Chapter, which is from nationals, concerning hazing, absolutely nothing I went through would be considered hazing. So I guess I'll change my statement from "I wouldn't consider anything I had to do as hazing" to "I wasn't hazed." Nowhere in the documents I have on hazing does it mention anything about yelling, raising voices, or anything that has the least bit to do with talking loud at someone. And concerning the physical level, it forbids "Forcing strenuous activities." First, I don't know what your physical capabilities are, but I know no one in my chapter would consider doing 10 push-ups as "strenuous." And secondly, the key word is "Forcing." I've never seen anyone make someone do something that they weren't willing to do. If a guy says, "No, I'm not doing that," well they just don't do it... no one's putting a gun to their head (I'm sure someone's going to take that literally). And that's basically the first message that's relayed to the pledges, "Don't do anything if you don't want to or don't agree with it." It's that simple. I know many other chapters out there aren't as nice about that, but they're really none of my concern. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could've refused to sit in a trash can. I'll tell you that none of my Brothers could hold me in a trash can if I really wanted out.

"I wouldn't join an organization if it allowed hazing." - Slick
"I got hazed. I did the push ups and sit-ups, we ate some horrible food all mixed together, we were hearded into a small room and made to stay up all night, we were placed in a trashcan full of ice water and kept there until we could name all the founders and recited the creed or values." - Slick

Well, I guess you joined one afterall.

But anyways, I don't feel like explaining everything I've said, don't have to really. We're not really concerned about numbers and national awards at our Chapter. To us, it's quality, not quantity. We don't need to be recognized by nationals to know we are a quality Chapter. And I really don't care how many people we rush... we don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there. If they don't like us, they can go to the frat next door.

And about "earning the letters" of my family. I understand the principle behind what you're saying. It's not as asanine as most may think. The thing is you can't really earn something you're born with. But the truth is, by your definition of hazing, I was hazed by my parents 10 times more than by my Brothers for something I already had. May sound dumb, but it's true. My parents yelled at me way more than I was ever yelled at in the House, and made me do alot more physical tasks that I definitely didn't want to do. So I guess yeah, indirectly I'll probably haze my kids quite a bit (not as newborns though).

In our House, you earn your letters over the entire semester. You don't take an oath before you have earned them. And with all due respect, by the way you say you earn them, I could take a pledge manual, a roll of toliet paper, and around an hour and I would have "earned my letters." Using that method, I don't believe I would deserve that privilege.

[edit on 4-8-2004 by 71Vegas]

no i won't haze a newborn because that newborn did not chose to join my family unlike new members(i still like pledges) do.
From my understanding (slick you can correct me if i am wrong) hazing is defined as any sort or act that lowers your self esteem or makes you do something you don't want to do. If you look at it in that light then the world is hazing me for making me go to college to get a job. I did not want to go to college but if you want to survive in this world you have too. On top of that i am paying lots of money to be hazed by all my teachers.(Engineering Student if you wondered)
I believe there is diffent types of hazing. There is the physical and mental. At no point should there be any physical hazing. I think vegas is right when he said that if a brother asked you the founders and you don't know it you have to do something. There is no reason to join an organization if you don't know what you are joining. At our chapter only hazed when we messed up, not just for fun. there was never any of that. we would get yelled at and stuff like that. But during hell week, there was a point to all the hazing. If you are in the real world and it gets though are you going to go crying to moma or lean on your brothers who have been through it with ya. I think hell week seperates the men from the boys. We were not allowed to sleep much either. this showed up that there will never be an excuse not to study for a test no matter how late we had to stay up cause we realized that you can function on 2 hrs of sleep. you may not believe it but you can for a week.
I know all you anti-hazers will come done on me but i don't care. I know that hazing is bad, at least the physical part is cause i have never heard of anyone dying from being yelled at. my chapter never made you drink or do drugs(we actually outlaw drugs anywhere close to the house) and most of the time the extent of the hazing was washing dishes and cleaning the house.
So anti-hazers bring it on.

Originally posted by qwerty99
If you are in the real world and it gets though are you going to go crying to moma or lean on your brothers who have been through it with ya. I think hell week seperates the men from the boys.

Amen to that.

Originally posted by 71Vegas

"I wouldn't join an organization if it allowed hazing." - Slick
"I got hazed. I did the push ups and sit-ups, we ate some horrible food all mixed together, we were hearded into a small room and made to stay up all night, we were placed in a trashcan full of ice water and kept there until we could name all the founders and recited the creed or values." - Slick

Well, I guess you joined one afterall.

Maybe I should revise what I meant. I would not now join an organization that hazes, now that I know that it's not the right thing to do. When you are young and a freshman in college, you don't know any better. You pretty much do what you're told because that's the way you were brought up. When I got older I realized hazing didn't make sense. That's why I ended it in my chapter and strive to end it in other places. A student's grades or life should not be effected by hazing.

Those new members to my fraternity do not have to worry about being hazed by the undergraduates, because I have gotten rid of it. They are not hazed and they still earn their letters.