Dallas Officer Sues Taser International

reply to post by Xcathdra


Xcathdra, I'm glad you posted about fighting with people on PCP, and the like. I completely agree with you. I work on a 911 ambulance, Have fought people with/without police on drugs. Police have an extremely hard time with some drunks, some on drugs, and some people that have martial arts training. To the posters saying martial arts is the most effective, that is not always the case. So why shouldn't the police have more tools for use in life threatening situations? I'm not saying everyone that doesn't comply should be tased. Around here we check out alot of people that get tased, and so does the local ER. I know I'd much rather check someone out that got tased, than someone that had a 120lb K9 latch onto there arm. I'd much rather be hit by a taser than square off with a K9.

I'm sorry for the trainee that was hurt. Just like the military though, law enforcement is a hard and dangerous profession. Lots of people I served with was injured during training, accidents happen. You have to accept that there is risk involved in training, and on the street.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


To give you a good understanding of what it is like to be tased... A buddy of mine bought one of these things for a grand a while back and thanks to him I have experienced a full 5 seconds with darts and a few contact hits. IT DOES NOT KNOCK YOU OUT... IT IS NOT LIKE SITTING IN AN ELECTRIC CHAIR (or so I've heard)... A taser is more efficient and less dangerous than an over dramatized STUN gun. I'm sure some of you have played around with a shock pranking device strapped to a 9 volt or lantern battery, feels like that over your entire body. For those seconds you can't move because your muscles won't let you. Injury comes from not having a spotter and uncontrolled falling.

Originally posted by stirling
Who cares?

Hmm... Apparently everyone in the thread thus far. I am thinking you care a bit as well, other wise why would you have taken the time to open this thread, read it and then post? On top of that, the media certainly cares, and while I can't say for sure, I would venture to guess that many people who have read the article or saw the story on the news care as well.

I hope he gets zilch....ive no use for cops.

That's a mean thing to say. Has this particular cop harassed you or something? Has this one bullied you? Has he? No? Then why are you assuming this one would do such a thing? Surely you are not under the impression that all cops are exactly the same. Surely you do not think that all cops are abusive bullies. If so that is rather prejudiced of you to say/imply.

[

There is something creepy about people who want to make a carreer out of bullying others.....
A certain less than human quality which their training re enforces to the point of a complex.
We need an entirely different breed of police officers, and entirely different training for same.

I really should just ignore your whole post, but someone needs to say something. I did ask that people refrain from cop bashing, but since you chose to ignore my request, I will go ahead and respond.

How many cops have you had run ins with your life? How many times have these cops beat you up? Bullied you? Violated your rights? All of them? None of them? One of them?

In my life, I have dealt with cops quite a few times ( Mostly in my teen years) All of them, except for one were amazing and caring and were in this line of work because they want to make a difference and help to rid the streets of crime.

One of my mentors growing up was a cop actually, and if it were not for him, I would not be half the man I am today. Why? Because he cared. He took time out of his day that he did not have to, in order to help a struggling kid. In order to help me before I ended up behind bars.

So to see you or anyone else sit here and suggest that all cops are bad, is just... Well... It's silly, quite frankly.

Yes, I have met one cop who had no business being a cop. One. Out of... well, too many to count. How about you? Or are you just basing your opinion on a few youtube videos? Mine comes from real life experiences with cops... What do you base your opinion on?

That said, Let's try to get off the subject of whether or not cops are bad. This is not a cop bashing thread. Feel free to reply back, but I plan on only talking about this thread and the lawsuit at hand because that is the subject of this thread.

Thank you for your post. Now I must ask, any thoughts on the law suit? Any thought on the taser companies responsibility for making known the risks of using a taser?

reply to post by rakkasansct


Personally speaking some people are not going to understand where we are coming from until they actually experience what is being talked about first hand. This is also the reason I argue for restraint when people post videos of "Police brutality". To a bystander who has no training, I will agree it looks like cops beat the hell out of people for little to no reason. What they fail to understand is the use of distraction techniques on our part, and the ability for people who are either intoxicated or on drugs and their inability to register pain compliance (mental capacity deficiency can also have adverse effects).

PCP is a huge one where pain compliance is futile. The Rodney King incident is a perfect example of how drugs can counter pain compliance. The King video pissed me off to no end, since the media failed to show the first few minutes where he was throwing police around like rag dolls. Again another example of a picture not showing the entire story.

As far as the ER PCP fight, had we not had the number of officers we did, then chances are we would of had to shoot and kill the guy to protect others in the ER. Even drugs that are used to calm people down / make people sleep had no effect. Absent using something like succinylcholine no normal drugs would have any affect (To those not familiar, succinylcholine is used for conscious intubations. It completely paralyzes the patient, movement, breathing, etc. The patient however is still conscious and can hear whats going on, but cannot move / breath).



reply to post by nephilimDNA


Completely agree.. The onlything I would point out is when a person is hit with the probes, or 1 probe with a followup touch from the Taser itself, it acts to override the muscle control. If the probes miss, and the tip of the taser is used, it is pure pain complaince and cannot incapacitate a person.

Taser has dual use in that area. It is a defensive tool, and is designed with that in mind. If we are dealing with multiple people, and we deploy the probes into one person, and the second person continues to advance, we can cycle the taser and use the tip on the second person to defend ourselves.

The person who was hit with the probes will continue to take the ride so long as the other person continues their aggressive actions.

As far as the op goes.. I am curious how this will play out. Even though there are articles that talk about spinal fractures as a result of being hit by a Taser, I still think there is the possibility of an underlying, undiagnosed pre exisiting condition. Especially since it was a controlled enviornment.

Have to wait and see...

Originally posted by nephilimDNA
Injury comes from not having a spotter and uncontrolled falling.

But here is the thing. He was spotted by two people. He was lowered down to the ground slowly. He was even standing on a mat.

Here, you can see the video of it here.

www.nbcdfw.com...

That news video shows the incident in question....

That said, hopefully I never have to know what it feels like to be tased. Good bad or other wise. You are a braver man than I, if you did that willingly.

Originally posted by stirling
Who cares?I hope he gets zilch....ive no use for cops.
There is something creepy about people who want to make a carreer out of bullying others.....
A certain less than human quality which their training re enforces to the point of a complex.
We need an entirely different breed of police officers, and entirely different training for same.

I can honestly say in my 10 years of doing this stuff, I have been called worse by better.

Although I completely agree LEO's need more training as training is a good thing, and should never stop as new techniques / theories / etc come about every day. Its almost like diplomacy, another profession where you need as many words as you can find. However, as with diplomacy, there comes a time when words stops, and action starts. What that action is is dependant upon the person initiating the actions, whether it be complaince, stipulations, or agressive behavior.

In addition to that, we need a better society. The one we have right now is so spoiled and lack the concept of personal responsibility its not even funny. Society has this misconception they are owed something, which is the farthest from the truth. Society lacks personal responsibility.. Its almost always someone elses fault by their arguments.

My parents did drugs.... I grew up poor... My parents hated me... While I sympathise and care, the only person who can change their situation is that person.

Anyone who says its impossible, has only themselves to blame.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Even though this topic has plenty of potential landmines it's nice to see smart, thoughtful replies from so many posters.

Xcathdra, I bet you're a damned fine officer in the field. If only everyone in public service were as bright. Great research you offered, too.

As for the growing problem of so many people's lack of accountability...I personally see this as a terminal condition unless the entire human population's consciousness is raised.

While I wish for a gentle transition to enlightenment and a natural, adult sense of responsibility to one another -- sadly, it seems that pain is the most consistent teacher. Whether it be by economic crash, an earth-related catastrophe, or some other mechanism.

I do see the world waking up...slowly.

But, we really need to jump a stage in our evolution. And we need to do it fast.

Until then, we should thank our lucky stars that we have men and women who have the guts to get up everyday, put on a uniform and head out into the zoo.

reply to post by fragmatic


Hey, first of just wanted to say that I dig your avatar and I especially dig what you have as your location. Always awesome to see a fellow beatles fan ( Even if they are everywhere).

Anyway, yeah, I have really appreciated the posts from X. He ( I assume he... If you are a woman X I apologize) has brought forth some really great contributions to this thread. On this subject it is always nice to have an officers point of view.

Truth be told I am surprised this thread has been as calm as it has been. Usually threads like this are filled with cop bashing posts.

I to hope to see a world in which everyone is responsible for their own actions and everyone gets along. You are right in saying that Pain seems to be the teacher of choice.... Thought it is a hell of a hard way to learn... And so often, people don't learn from pain. They just continue on with the same behavior...

But I digress...I have not heard more on this story on my local news. I keep looking for it though.

Sometimes a half step just doesn't make people happy.
I say no more tazers or stun guns.
Let's just go back to being beaten sensless with billy clubs or a few rounds to the chest.

That ought to make everybody much happier.

As far as the officer who got hurt during training....it's part of the job. he chose to get tazed and took the risks associated with it.

He should have medical coverage through his department.

Originally posted by badgerprints
Sometimes a half step just doesn't make people happy.
I say no more tazers or stun guns.
Let's just go back to being beaten sensless with billy clubs or a few rounds to the chest.

So you are suggesting that it is a norm, or at least used to be a norm for all police to commit Police Brutality? Hmmm.... Some how, I just have to disagree with you.

I have said it many times in this thread. 99.999% of cops I have come across and dealt with were wonderful. Unfortunately, people never pay attention to the cop that helps the old lady across the street. Or the one that mentors the struggling teen and helps him grow up and get through tough times...

People would rather see the VERY FEW cops who have no business being cops, and then say that all cops are like that...

In my life I have seen only one cop that had no business being a cop... But I am not about to let that one cop sway my opinion of all cops. There are bad apples in EVERY line of work...

If you were short changed by a cashier, would you say that all cashiers are moronic, fools who can't count? Or would you just hold the one who short changed you responsible?

If you were hit buy a car, would you say that every driver in the world is a terrible driver who does not pay attention? Or would you just blame the guy that hit you?

Well, why is it different for cops? Any reasonable person would see that it is no different for cops.

Originally posted by badgerprints


As far as the officer who got hurt during training....it's part of the job. he chose to get tazed and took the risks associated with it.

With due respect, did you read the article or see the news video presented within this thread? The suit involves the idea that the taser company does not fairly make known the risks of taser usage.... In other words, he is saying that he was not made known, the risks....

He is saying, in other words, that the risks were not made known and is suing to get the taser companies to make the risks better known. So your argument about the risks involved.... kind of indicate that you may have missed that.

As for it being part of the job to get tased. As has been said. It is not, in Dallas. It is not a requirement. In quite a few cities it is a requirement in order to get certified to use the taser.... But that is the extent.

So again.... You seem to have missed something.... For what that is worth.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

reply to post by fragmatic



I am a guy so no worries there. Thanks for the kind words as I am sure in addition to me all the other LEO's on this site appreciate it as well. I have had the unique privilege of serving the community I have lived in, in 2 different states now. Our experiences will always greatly vary from location, to state laws, departmental policies, officer background etc etc etc. The info I volunteer in these types of threads will not always be correct, again depending on local laws, training, agency etc. You will also find officers who think my answers are out of the ballpark batsh#t crazy as well, and it all part of the job.

One of the biggest disconnects I see in my job is the communication between the community we serve, and the Police deparment. The citizens know they can pick up the phone and call 911 and will have officers respond. They know if their is an accident or medical emergency / fire they will have our response. Just because we are there does not mean we are all on the same page though.

This is one of the reasons I try to give more info than I normally would when responding to threads like this. Unless you come from law enforcement or a military background, chances are anyone who watches us could perceive our actions as excessive use of force, coming across as a bully etc etc. As far as the negative comments about Law Enforcement its a given, and there is not much we can do about that except to try to answer questions in hopes of a better understanding, on both sides.

I equate it with a person going to a resteraunt for the firt time and having a really bad experience. Chances are you wont be going back , and anyone you talk to at some point, will tell them to stay away because of the bad exepreince. Law Enforcement is going to be the same way. Chances are contact with us is not going to fall on the side of chance encounter but because of a law violation.

Everyone loves the Fire department, because they dont say no. When they have to say no, they use us to relay the message - no you cant go back in, no you cant remove anymore personal items, no we cant get the fish etc etc etc.

The tools we use also fall into that category of knowing what it is, and having a basic idea of how it works, but without a full understanding people can reach the wrong conclusions. Again it goes back to communication disconnects, and the only way to get over that is to communicate, answer questions and try to explain why we do what we do. It does not mean you will agree with it, but at the very least it gives people a better understanding of this line of work. Even then there will be those people who hate us no matter what, and there is nothing we can do to change that, and that is just the nature of the beast.

As far as this topic goes, here is a link to the entire lawsuit. The incident occured in January of 2009, so I am not entirely sure why its just now making the news.

Dallas PD Trainee Goes a TASER Too Far

Court documents allege negligence on behalf of Taser International, which the suit says had reason to believe the application of its products could cause serious injury, but that the company misrepresented the danger to the DPD trainees:

and

Butler, who is in his 30s, is seeking damages for "conscious physical pain and suffering" as well as physical impairment, disfigurement, lost wages and medical care. Butler's lawyer, Mark Haney out of Fort Worth, says his client's injury came directly from the Taser-induced muscle contractions in Butler's back and that Butler will have "problems in the long term." Butler has already undergone surgery, Haney tells Unfair Park, and "has made as good a recovery as he is going to make."

There is risk in everything we do, and all of the tools we use, from car accidents, to electrical fires from the computer terminals in the cars, chemical burns from pepper spray for those of us who have light skin, injuries from defensive tactics, baton training, weapons training, etc etc etc.

A Taser is a good tool for us to have and use, even with the issues that surround it. To me making an argument about the number of people injured by taser would be no different than people who drive vehicles. There is danger in everything. Absent a Taser, we will go back to pepperspray and more agressive hands on procedures, which again, will result in more injuries for both, the people we deal with, as well as ourselves. Supreme court has said we need to end an encounter as quickly and safely as possible, using the least amount of force we can.

I have a question for people on the ohter side of the fence, well more like a scenario question for you.

You are a police officer, patrolling the west side of your city. Its about 40 degrees outside with spring right around the corner. Dispatch contacts you on the radio with a call. They are sending you priority (code - lights/siren) to a fight in progress between 2 possibly drunk people, unknown if weapons are involved. The caller did not want to be identifed, as has hung up on the call taker at dispatch.

You are the closest officer, but you do have other units responding as backup, but they are going to arrive approximately 5 minutes after you arrive on scene, by yourself (they are running code as well, but are on the other side of the city).

You find one of the suspects in the middle of the road, no shirt on, bloody, no obvious signs of a weapon. The guy is babeling incoherently, mumbling to himself, walking in circles. You get out of your car, and the guy sees you and starts walking towards you. You give loud clear repetitive commands for the person to stop and show you his hands. The guys is still coming at you, and you realize the guy is pretty muscular, and is still ignroing your commands. You quickly scan the area, and it appears the only person around is the guy bearing down on you.

You are still by yourself, and need to act.

On your duty belt, you have access to a collapsible baton, pepper spray, Taser, Pocket knife and your duty weapon (Glock 22).

What would you do?

You are still by yourself, and need to act.

On your duty belt, you have access to a collapsible baton, pepper spray, Taser, Pocket knife and your duty weapon (Glock 22).

What would you do?

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You raise an excellent point.

In your case, you should obviously follow your training and your instincts.

Use what you feel is appropriate force and let the lawyers and newscasters debate it later.

Take care of yourself out there, bud.