Humans are naturally plant-eaters

Originally posted by The_Zomar

Originally posted by PoorFool
I would like to see a study where the meat eaters where strictly Paleo dieters, which is what most of us here are arguing for. You keep forgetting that and you keep putting all meat eaters in one category.

It is true that most meat eaters eat crappy. but that's because it's the norm. It has nothing to do with meat.

On the other hand vegetarians often become vegetarians for the supposed health benefits - hence they generally eat healthier.

I'm not saying that that study was biased, what I am saying is that correlation does not equal causation.

If that is your opinion then you need to take it up with those who perform said tests.
I don't have the capability of scientifically studying 60,000 people.

I could argue that a lot of those meat eaters ate very little meat. I could argue that the vegetarians ate mostly junk food. Thats why it's always averaged. And on average vegetarians live 6 to 10 years longer. If that isn't the definition of health then I don't know what is...

I don't know why you continue posting here. I'm obviously not going to satisfy whatever it is you are searching for. Science is on the side of vegetarians. I'm not arguing that vegetarians are healthy because I am one. I am arguing because I began my research as an omnivore and when I read the studies I switched. I simply would prefer to live my life the longest I possibly can. We have one life to live, and knowing I could extend my ONLY LIFE by as much as 10 years - cutting meat out of my diet was obvious.

I don't care what you eat, or what anyone else eats. I do feel for the animals but I'm not about to command anyone change their habits. I don't go into drug dens and demand they stop selling substances because it is killing people. Meat is simply not worth paying any portion of my life no matter how good it tastes. Period.

How is science on your side when humans have been omnivores for thousands of years? You can't change that.

I don't know why YOU are still posting if you don't care what I eat. I came back because I am sick of seeing the # you come up with.

Meat is not unhealthy. Stop demonizing it because you feel for the animals. Yet another logical fallacy.

How can a perfectly healthy animal's flesh possibly negatively affect another omnivore animal?

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by davidchin

 

Chimps are a little canabalistic sometimes. Great apes are not. Our DNA was mixed with an inferior creature if you ask me. I know..nobody did.

To the fellow above going on the meat diet...good for you.
Shows how smart you are....n't.
Just don't eat at Taco Bell.

The Inuits are a myth then?

Humans in the beginning were semi-vegetarians. We could only eat what we were capable of catching which did not include animals rather than insects, fruits, and vegetables.

As we developed we began using tools to catch animals and began eating meat. We are very good adapters, but it still remains unhealthy. It was simply a fulfilling meal.

As we continue to develop, we will transition to a vegetarian race once again. As it becomes easier to do, humans will take advantage of the health benefits of being a vegetarian.

As we travel through space we will grow our food with hydroponics. Sorry; cattle farms will never leave primitive Earth.

Argue all you want.
Deny all the facts you want.
Ignore science.
But in the end; humans will be forced to quit eating meat - and thats why I don't have to even fight for vegetarianism/veganism

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Humans in the beginning were semi-vegetarians. We could only eat what we were capable of catching which did not include animals rather than insects, fruits, and vegetables.

As we developed we began using tools to catch animals and began eating meat. We are very good adapters, but it still remains unhealthy. It was simply a fulfilling meal.

As we continue to develop, we will transition to a vegetarian race once again. As it becomes easier to do, humans will take advantage of the health benefits of being a vegetarian.

As we travel through space we will grow our food with hydroponics. Sorry; cattle farms will never leave primitive Earth.

Argue all you want.
Deny all the facts you want.
Ignore science.
But in the end; humans will be forced to quit eating meat - and thats why I don't have to even fight for vegetarianism.

If eating meat was unhealthy we would not be the most superior species on earth, let alone have developed intelligence.

The FACT is that humans have eaten meat for as long as they have been humans, thus adapting to it.

If you feed a cow meat, it will eventually die; if you feed a lion only grass, it will die likewise. It's all about evolution. The fact that humans are omnivores is undeniable and supported by science. This is why we can survive on an all vegan and an all meat diet. I chose to stay in the middle. Got a problem?

As far as I am aware you can't live on an all meat diet...

Unless of course you want to be riddled with disease and die early?

Hey, hows about you step outside, walk 100 kilometers into the wilderness, and try to survive off plants.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Ya know, in this day and age, meat-eating is strictly choice in some parts of the world, and in other parts, if you don't eat meat, you will die of starvation.

Lets look at the Inuit, for example... what do you suppose they'd eat, if Humans are naturally vegetarians? Ice? Salt Water? Jump in the water and filter feed?

Even our closest relatives, mountain gorillas eat loads of insects, and may even cannibalize when needed. They simply CANNOT live off ONLY vegetables.

Originally posted by mindpurge
Hey, hows about you step outside, walk 100 kilometers into the wilderness, and try to survive off plants.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Ya know, in this day and age, meat-eating is strictly choice in some parts of the world, and in other parts, if you don't eat meat, you will die of starvation.

Lets look at the Inuit, for example... what do you suppose they'd eat, if Humans are naturally vegetarians? Ice? Salt Water? Jump in the water and filter feed?

Even our closest relatives, mountain gorillas eat loads of insects, and may even cannibalize when needed. They simply CANNOT live off ONLY vegetables.

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread (apparently you haven't read it) I said the Inuit are living in an un-natural location. AKA: humans aren't suppose to live in that area of the world. They don't HAVE to live off of animals. They could also practice a vegetarian diet by shipping in the food.

Mountain gorillas eat insects (look what I said a couple posts above). They do not hunt rabbits, goats, etc.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
As far as I am aware you can't live on an all meat diet...

Unless of course you want to be riddled with disease and die early?

edit on 28-1-2011 by The_Zomar because: (no reason given)

Inuit Inuit inuit and more inuit.
They survive on all meat diet, why?
Because they eat raw meat which contains stuff that gets lost when you cook the food.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Humans in the beginning were semi-vegetarians. We could only eat what we were capable of catching which did not include animals rather than insects, fruits, and vegetables.

As we developed we began using tools to catch animals and began eating meat. We are very good adapters, but it still remains unhealthy. It was simply a fulfilling meal.

As we continue to develop, we will transition to a vegetarian race once again. As it becomes easier to do, humans will take advantage of the health benefits of being a vegetarian.

As we travel through space we will grow our food with hydroponics. Sorry; cattle farms will never leave primitive Earth.

Argue all you want.
Deny all the facts you want.
Ignore science.
But in the end; humans will be forced to quit eating meat - and thats why I don't have to even fight for vegetarianism/veganism

edit on 28-1-2011 by The_Zomar because: (no reason given)

The thing is... there are no facts to deny, there is no argument...

That's very very lame "As we travel through space we will grow our food with hydroponics. Sorry; cattle farms will never leave primitive Earth."

It's very likely true, I agree, but we will most likely synthesize something to replace meat, more than vegetation. There are things our bodies need, such as fats, protein... we would get from possibly breeding insects as opposed to cows, crushing them to a paste and adding it to our foods.

And until that time comes, you can't stand there and make claims... what right do you have to claim things about the future, which are 100% unsupportable, and tell US we're liars, primitive and ignorant?

reply to post by mindpurge


I've proved it's healthier to live life as a vegetarian.

And I've made the very likely assumption that we won't be stuffing cows into our space ships.

No argument here.


If you want to talk about Inuits we certainly can.

Lets start with their short life spans and poor health shall we?

www.reuters.com...

The Inuit in Canada's far north have lifespans 12 to 15 years shorter than the average Canadian's, government data showed on Wednesday, putting the aboriginal people on a par with developing countries such as Guatemala and Mongolia.

I previously didn't know that before I just researched. Another point to add to my arguments in the future.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
As far as I am aware you can't live on an all meat diet...

Unless of course you want to be riddled with disease and die early?

edit on 28-1-2011 by The_Zomar because: (no reason given)

Then you need to do some research and stop being so ignorant.

I can likewise say that one cannot live off 100% vegetation.

As a matter of fact, not a single society on earth has done so.

On the other hand you have the Inuits and many other tribes around the world that eat mostly meat.

You're desperately attempting to push your own agenda here, denying facts and wanting to change nature.

Ain't gonna happen.

reply to post by The_Zomar


It's unfair to compare a tribe that lives in the wilderness, or very close to it, to a human being that has access to everything they need.

How do you explain France (81.5) and Japans (82.6) highest life expectancy in the whole world? Both of which the population are generally omnivore, especially France.

India on the other hand, mostly vegetarians, have life expectancy almost 20 years less (63.7)

Originally posted by The_Zomar
reply to post by The_Zomar

 

The sources the debater used are as follows: (clickable versions available at link above; you won't be able to access the sources from this post)

1 books.google.com...... (page 25)
2 www.who.int......
3 en.wikipedia.org......
4 books.google.com...... (page 26)
5 books.google.com...... (page 27)
6 www.aicr.org......
7 www.aicr.org......
8 www.aicr.org......
9 www.aicr.org......
10 www.silksoymilk.com......
11 vitamins.lovetoknow.com......
12 www.whfoods.com......
13 en.wikipedia.org......
14 lunabar.com...... (click Nutrition Facts)
15 books.google.com...... (page 127)
16 en.wikipedia.org......
17 en.wikipedia.org......
18 www.aafp.org......
19 www.dietaryfiberfood.com......
20 www.cdc.gov......
21 www.americanpregnancy.org......
22 en.wikipedia.org......
23 www.veganhealth.org......
24 www.whfoods.com......
25 www.heart.org......
26 care.diabetesjournals.org......
27 www.cdc.gov......
28 www.food.gov.uk...... (section 2.2.6)
2 www.who.int......
3 books.google.com...... (page 20)
4 www.americanheart.org......
5 findarticles.com......
6 heartdisease.about.com......
7 cholesterol.about.com......


American heart association, CDC, .gov websites, not sure what you personally accept as fact (yours must differ from reality) but there are enough sources to choose from.

The best part about all this is, that the debate I posted is about a VEGAN diet. I only advise a vegetarian diet which is much easier. So, put up or shut up

And what I mean by that, is go accept a challenge at said website. I've already given all the facts; multiple times actually throughout the thread. Once again, go win a debate from said website with the results "An omnivorous diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet" and we will talk.

I stress the fact that I have already put numerous studies and scientific conclusions from a multitude of sources that prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier.

edit on 27-1-2011 by The_Zomar because: (no reason given)

I wasted my time actually clicking every one of the links UNLIKE YOU!

Did you click even one of those links? ONE??!?!?!

I suggest you do. Advertisements, wiki links about being vegan, CDC links about what cardo disease is. NOT ONE link contains a source for how being vegetarian or vegan is PREFERRED and MORE HEALTHY then eating a balanced diet including meats. NOT ONE link addresses the topic of "Humans are naturally plant eaters".

You are barely worth my attention at this point.

In the future when you ask someone to read something as "proof" or a source of your point, you should probably read it yourself at the very least first.

If you wish to argue my conclusion, can you please be so kind as to quote and source something in any of that garbage that supports your thoughts? Just 1... is all I am asking.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
reply to post by mindpurge

 

I've proved it's healthier to live life as a vegetarian.

And I've made the very likely assumption that we won't be stuffing cows into our space ships.

No argument here.


If you want to talk about Inuits we certainly can.

Lets start with their short life spans and poor health shall we?

www.reuters.com...

The Inuit in Canada's far north have lifespans 12 to 15 years shorter than the average Canadian's, government data showed on Wednesday, putting the aboriginal people on a par with developing countries such as Guatemala and Mongolia.

I previously didn't know that before I just researched. Another point to add to my arguments in the future.

edit on 28-1-2011 by The_Zomar because: (no reason given)

First of all, you haven't proven ANYTHING. Not a single thing that you have said has proven anything, other than the obvious insults others have thrown at you.

Secondly, maybe, and I mean MAYBE in THIS day and age, a human could survive off a vegan diet, however, that's not the topic of the conversation... A completely balanced vegan diet is NOT natural.

Are you serious when you are stating that the inuit are not natural, like it's not natural for them to live in the Arctic circle? How is that? So if we go down that road... it's not natural for any human to live anywhere but the cradle of life correct? It is of course because of the inuit that the Americas were able to be populated... Not directly, but we learned to survive there, and gradually came south.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Here ya go; a page from the Western Journal of Medicine

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Conclusion: Vegetarians live longer, have fewer diseases, and are less likely to be obese to get cancer.

That is a undeniable fact, and if you payed attention PAY ATTENTION: NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT. NO ONE

NO ONE











NONE OF US ARE DEBATING THAT.


What we are debating is the topic of the post. Are we naturally plant eaters. Is eating only plants more healthy.

You are consistently coming back to the fact that vegetarians live longer and have less ailments then meat eaters. But it is consistently eluding you that the reason the statistics show that is because people who chose to be vegetarian are more health inclined. People who eat meat tend to be more lazy and more careless. It's not the veggies that is causing the vegetarians to be more healthy statistically, it is not meat that is causing meat eaters to have more ailments statistically. It is the health awareness common among vegetarians. It is the laziness and lack of self control common among meat eaters.

What you need to compare is not how well off people who are very conscious about their health, and are vegetarians fair vs. meat eaters who could careless. What you need to compare is a healthy balanced diet individual with a healthy vegetarian.

Stop bringing statistics into this about how well off vegetarians are now days vs. meat eaters. That's America dude. We are fat and lazy and only care about the next new TV series.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by Ciphor

 

What the OP says in the thread title is true.

Cool. And as much as I'd love to take your word for it. Some random guy on the web...

I'm going to need more evidence then you saying so. Until one of you show something besides a study on how vegetarians live longer then MiccyD packers, it's not an opinion that what your saying is just wind in the air, it's fact.

Show
Me
Some
Evidence
To
Support
Your
Claims

Thank you.

I think people are confusing a lot of different issues on this thread.

The healthiest diet is not necesarily the one that produces the greatest longevity. Some people might define it that way but it's not some given like many seem to assume (some might define the healthiest diet as the one that makes you the strongest, or the most resistant to disease, or the most able to survive through lean times etc. etc. etc.). A vegetable only diet is not going to be best if you're using some of these other standards of "health."

Also, the diet that we're "naturally meant" to consume, is not necesariily the healthiest. This is another false assumption I'm seeing throughout this thread (it could be that drinking nutrition shakes from bottles is the "healthiest" but we certainly weren't meant to have such a diet).

Having said that, I think it's common sense that variety produces the greatest "overall health" (which is some combination of longevity, strength, disease resistance, survivability in lean times etc. etc. etc.). In other words, anyone overally focused on any one of these goals or "ideas of health" is probably gonna have pretty poor "overall health."

Originally posted by The_Zomar
The American Heart Association says if done correctly that a vegetarian diet is healthier.

Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer.

www.americanheart.org...

Do you not understand what is being said? He is saying. Many studies show vegetarians have lower risk.

What you are looking for is "many studies show that eating a vegetarian diet is more healthy then a diet that includes meat"

That article is specifically addressing vegetarians, NOT the act of having a veggie only diet in itself.

I will close my rants today with a quote from your link, THANK YOU!

Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients. However, a vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if it contains too many calories and/or saturated fat and not enough important nutrients.

www.americanheart.org...

No where on that link does it say a vegetarian diet is preferred to a balanced diet
No where on that link does it say a vegetarian diet is generally considered to be healthy
No where on that link does it support any of your claims, it simply restates what we already know.

Let's look deeper at the americanheart site. It is very creditable and I am glad you brought it into the discussion. So what do they say...

www.heart.org...

* Fruits and vegetables: At least 4.5 cups a day
* Fish (preferably oily fish): At least two 3.5-ounce servings a week
* Fiber-rich whole grains: At least three 1-ounce-equivalent servings a day
* Sodium: Less than 1,500 mg a day
* Sugar-sweetened beverages: No more than 450 calories (36 ounces) a week

www.heart.org...

1. Eat more fruits and vegetables. Aim for 4-5 servings each of fruits and vegetables every day, if you consume a 2,000 calorie diet. Vegetable or 100% fruit juice counts toward this goal.
2. Eat more whole-grain foods. Like fruits and vegetables, whole-grain foods are low in saturated fat and cholesterol and rich in fiber. Whole-grain foods include whole-wheat bread, rye bread, brown rice and whole-grain cereal.
3. Use olive, canola, corn or safflower oil as your main kitchen fat. Limit how much fat or oil you use in cooking, and use liquid vegetable oils such as olive, canola, corn and safflower oils in place of solid fats.
4. Eat more chicken, fish and beans than other meats. In general, skinless poultry, fish and vegetable protein (such as beans) are lower in saturated fat and cholesterol than other meats (beef, pork and lamb).
5. Read food labels to help you choose healthy foods. Food labels provide information to help you make better food choices. Learn what information to look for (for example, sodium content) and how to find it quickly and easily.

You must be as baffled as me!

"I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants."

reply to post by SevenBeans


Very well put, kudos. Nothing said on this thread rings more truth then that.

Balance is always key, in all parts of life.