Removal of College Fraternity Secrets Threads

Heh well I suppose you may be right…I am not a expert in law, but it just seems hard to believe they would have much of a case…. I have heard that when someone goes to court with you it give you the right to even more investigation of them however. Most importantly I think the facts , structure and a groups inner core and belies will be a better indicator of any conspiracy going on then the other way around, so either which way is the right or wrong way I am just voicing my frustration of the whole situation.
Ultimately thought best of wishes to ATS and I hope they made the best decision for the board if in fact that decision was to take down the post, but I just have a hard time seeing it that is all.



[edit on 2-4-2006 by PowerToThePeople]

Why do you think you have the right to view a private groups "rituals"??

It seems very odd to me.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Boatphone
Why do you think you have the right to view a private groups "rituals"??

It seems very odd to me.

-- Boat

I believe people have the right to explore and discover whatever they wish. It's not like its' picking on any one individual in this case it's bringing to light the group as a whole which should not be obstructed.

[edit on 2-4-2006 by PowerToThePeople]

While this thread is pretty old, I think I'll join in with the recent posters and, well, post.


I think individuals have the right to privacy.
I think groups/organisations do not.


So if this did get brought to court, who would win, the college kids with their weird secret rituals that probably do things like masturbate in a cemetary while listening to god awful music.

Or the website that's expressing it's right to free speech, and bringing these groups less than adequate activities to the light of day?

Look I'm all for freedoms and I feel that people have the right to hold private meetings, and have rituals if they want to do so.

I mean the government has the right to hold secret meetings, and big companies have the right to hold secret meetings. So, why should the common citizen not be able to do so?

People join a Fraternities and enjoy being part of a secret group with secret signs and passewords, songs and rituals. What gives you the right to take this away from them????

-- Boat

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Boatphone]

If theres suspect that their rituals and stuff are bad for people, that's what gives me/people the right.

As for the corporations an government being able to hold secret meetings, I don't beleive they should be able to, I think a record accesable by the public should be made of every clos session meeting for any organisation.

Originally posted by PowerToThePeople
Heh well I suppose you may be right…I am not a expert in law, but it just seems hard to believe they would have much of a case…. I have heard that when someone goes to court with you it give you the right to even more investigation of them however.

I would imagine that that would depend on the specifics of the case. As far as tradesecrets, I don't know if there has ever been a case wherein a fraternity was able to demonstrate that their rituals are trade secrets, these kinds of things are difficult to get even for actual companies. Usually it is something that you have before hand also, ie if they threaten to sue because of a breach of trade secrets, its because the material is already protected as a trade secret.
And, regardless of the merits of the case, it can still be brought into court, and cause havoc for all of us posting on ats.

I am just voicing my frustration of the whole situation.

I heard that! It is pretty frustrating.

but I just have a hard time seeing it that is all.

Also consider that there isn't much to gain from the rituals, which might not even make sense without some sort of cipher or something to interpret them. What is more important, as you note, is the structure of the organization and such, and that is not covered under copyright or anything like thaat.

Why do you think you have the right to view a private groups "rituals

A better question is why does a private group think that silly little rituals can't be told to other people?? Everyone hasa right to privacy, but, if someone has told people about the ritual, or if the group has actually gone so far as to print the rituals, and someone else gets them, well, those documents aren't protected by a right to privacy to that extent.

Or the website that's expressing it's right to free speech

If the rituals are protected by trade secret laws, then the frat is on the right, you couldn't go around telling people their rituals anymore than you could publish the formula for Coca Cola, which is an actual protected Trade Secret.

are bad for people, that's what gives me/people the right.

Right, just like if there is reasonable cause to think that a crime is being committed in someone;s house, the police can enter it. The big issue is what is reasonable? How can a ritual, in and of itself, be doing any harm, so long as its not 'kill the baby, roast it, and eat it' and such?? And as far as finding that out, well, agian, we need a good reason to actually suspect that that is happening, just like we'd need a real good reason to have the cops kick down someone's door and rummage through their private possessions.

The college fraternities have no legal standing and their blatant attempt to silence people would never hold up in any court. Perhaps there is more to it than what we are led to believe. There could also be 1st amendment challenges to their so called "trade secrets." I we now are denying ignorance by censorship. I never thought ATS would concede to to this kind of rhetoric from the college frats.

Originally posted by declairI never thought ATS would concede to to this kind of rhetoric from the college frats.

Why do you want to know all the secrets of a private club that has nothing to do with your life? Just to hurt the members of said group? To an outsider the rituals would seem most jejune.

-- Boat

Originally posted by declair
The college fraternities have no legal standing and their blatant attempt to silence people would never hold up in any court

It might fail, if they don't have them registered as trade secrets, but they'd still be able to bring ats to court, supeona the member records, and, when we failed to give that up, ATF would be blasting open the steel door to Skeptic Overlord's secret underground lair, er I mean office, and taking the servers directly, to get anyone's information, then hunt them down, supeona them, send cops to dragthem to court, etc etc.

All that know see the 'ritual' of some fruity little clubs?

I never thought ATS would concede to to this kind of rhetoric from the college frats.

Again, ATS has to watch out for itself and its members, do you really want to go to court over it yourself? I mean, you could put up a free webpage with all the information, and see if its something you want to go to court over. And even then, you'd only be exposing yourself, not all of your members.

Exposing yourself, members, there's a joke in there somewhere.

As a Sig, I have seen a great many things called the Sigma Chi Ritual and posted on the Internet for the world to see. I missed this one, but I probably have seen it before; 99% of the time, it's the same information. I can say with complete honesty that I have never seen our Ritual in in all my searches. The closest anyone has ever come is less than one-tenth of the Ritual.

I would have to disagree with anyone who thinks they have a right to the secret rituals of a fraternity. Perhaps legally, there is no sort of protection available (although fraternal organizations are considered in the same league as unions, and thus enjoy trade secret protection). However, it is an act of extremely low character, in my opinion, to snoop around looking for someone else's secrets in order to gain some invisible upper hand against them (as the case most often is). It is in the same category as looking through someone's trash to find out their credit history.

To the poster who claims to have studied fraternity rituals for years: at least in terms of Sigma Chi, you're way off on your symbolism.

Originally posted by ASigIAm213
(although fraternal organizations are considered in the same league as unions, and thus enjoy trade secret protection).

This is actually unclear. THe frats seem to threaten that they have trade secret protection. However, in order to have that protection, it has to be already established. For example, Coke has a trade secret protection on the forumla for coke. They had to apply to the government for that protection and it had to be approved. THis is actually a difficult process, and the government is generally not very giving in this repsect. I doubt that any frat has 'trade secret' protection on any of their 'rituals'. Especially because any frat is going to have built their rites and symbology upon something, on some other groups rites and symbols and interpretations, so it can't be claimed to be unique and original.

It is in the same category as looking through someone's trash to find out their credit history.

What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different that finding out the secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

at least in terms of Sigma Chi, you're way off on your symbolism.

How is he incorrect?

This is actually unclear. THe frats seem to threaten that they have trade secret protection. However, in order to have that protection, it has to be already established. For example, Coke has a trade secret protection on the forumla for coke. They had to apply to the government for that protection and it had to be approved. THis is actually a difficult process, and the government is generally not very giving in this repsect. I doubt that any frat has 'trade secret' protection on any of their 'rituals'.

If not, then what is the "legal claim" ATS admitted the fraternity had?

What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different that finding out the secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

First, explain how they're not both prying into someone else's business for no reason that could possibly benefit you, unless you have some scheme for "taking them down" or something.

Second, if it's only the "inane rites" of some "fruity little club", why do you care to find out what they are?

How is he incorrect?

In terms of Sigma Chi, the numbers seven and three mean something completely different. Given that Sigma Chi has seven stars on its badge, the White Cross, it seems like he just guessed, which only supports my statement that few outside our fraternity have ever seen the Ritual.

Originally posted by Nygdan
secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

The rituals are neither inane nor "fruity"; but secret, yes.

-- Boat

I'm assuming that, from the tones and diction that some of you are using, most of you aren't too keen on fraternities and fraternal life in general, not only the secret side. For example:
_________________________________________________
What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different that finding out the secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

I doubt that any frat has 'trade secret' protection on any of their 'rituals'

The college fraternities have no legal standing and their blatant attempt to silence people would never hold up in any court. Perhaps there is more to it than what we are led to believe. There could also be 1st amendment challenges to their so called "trade secrets." I we now are denying ignorance by censorship. I never thought ATS would concede to to this kind of rhetoric from the college frats

So if this did get brought to court, who would win, the college kids with their weird secret rituals that probably do things like masturbate in a cemetary while listening to god awful music. Or the website that's expressing it's right to free speech, and bringing these groups less than adequate activities to the light of day?
___________________________________

I don't know how intiment each of you are with fraternal life or what experiences you may have had, whether good or bad, but what I do know is that all of you sound very biased and ignorant about what you're commenting on.

Is Animal House or Van Wilder your best idea of fraternity rituals? Hazing has been stomped upon, so while not inexistent, it's uncommon; I was never hazed and will never allow hazing, and about 99% of the greek like of my campus (30% of 4000 undergrads) would agree.

I'm a Sigma Chi and I say that proudly. I wouldn't and couldn't say that if our ritual or brotherhood actions were uncouth or demoralizing; I wouldn't be a brother. What makes you think that Sigma Chi would be one of the largest fraternities if we all masturbated in a cemetary or did any of the other twisted garbage you think goes into fraternity rituals?

Get a clue before you talk: en.wikipedia.org...

And just so you don't think me bias:

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Notice the commonality between them all? Friendship. Brotherhood. High moral ideals. Gentlemanly in nature. Strive for academic and social success.

That you are met with any kind of opposition to your views should be enough to show you that there must be something about these organizations that allow for such loyalty. None of us are defending our personal reputation--I can care less about what you think of an individual; everyone does not like everyone else, especially when preconceptions, misconceptions and inexperience abound (not just talking relations between non-fraternal and fraternal people either)--we're (any brother, of any fraternity, you ever meet who champions their organization) defending our fraternities' reputation and that should speak volumes; a group centered on debasement and mortification does not foster that kind of life-long conviction.

Talk about brothers and their actions, unbecoming or not, as you will, but a fraternity is an ideal; judge them by those ideals.

And did someone really say that the 1st amendment could be used to challenge privacy? The first amendment is about freedom of expression as an individual without worry of government censorship. By no means is it some kind of tool that gives you the power to pick locks. If a fraternity wanted to open up its secrets (like Delta Upsilon), the first amdentment gives them the right to do so; you have no right to extortion.

"...bringing these groups less than adequate activities to the light of day?" Unbury your head and look at the good that is done, look at the brotherhood between memebers, talk to people and get a bit of education about the area before you comment.

Do you know how hard it is to not stoop to your level and rant and make gross accusations about your merit and character? But, I don't know anyone personally--you may all be some of the most helpful and tolerant people in the world, but I don't know that by reading your comments, so I keep my mouth shut; my only perception of any of you is that you are condenming every fraternity everywhere when you haven't been in contact with every fraternity everywhere, which makes me think you're all jerks. If i got to know you, I may think differently, but your words are your words.

It may not make a difference to any of you, but all Sigma Chis are told that we're in a fraternity, not a frat. Fraternity means brotherhood and that is something that should never be shortened.


_____________________________________
This is actually unclear. THe frats seem to threaten that they have trade secret protection. However, in order to have that protection, it has to be already established. For example, Coke has a trade secret protection on the forumla for coke. They had to apply to the government for that protection and it had to be approved. THis is actually a difficult process, and the government is generally not very giving in this repsect. I doubt that any frat has 'trade secret' protection on any of their 'rituals'. Especially because any frat is going to have built their rites and symbology upon something, on some other groups rites and symbols and interpretations, so it can't be claimed to be unique and original.
________________________________________

Please, state how this is a difficult process and the percent of trade secrets allowed and percent of trade secrets denied. Instead of only doubting, do yourself a favor a look it up. Why do fraternities have to build on other groups rites and symbols and interpreteations? Why? Does every author who writes a book have to build upon some other author's idea? Lots of groups have overlapping symbols, but it's their interpretation that is the difference, not the same. If everyone had the same interpretation of what a fraternity should be, there'd be one and only one fraternity. And do you understand that symbols are not part of the secret? That each fraternity clearly states it's mission and symbols and what it's founded upon? The ritual is what's secret, nothing else. If you know what the fraternity stands for, what it looks for, what it hopes to accomplish, why do you also need to know how members are inducted if that is wished to be kept secret? Curiousity and bias, that's all.

Yes, individuals have the right to privacy, and yes, individual groups have a right to privacy as well, because in the larger picture, groups are individuals. Think about that. I'm a penny. Together we're a nickel, but an individual nickel. We can grow to a dime, and while there's other dimes, we're still ONE dime.

I can say more...lots more...







[edit on 20-4-2006 by tlam643371]

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by ASigIAm213
(although fraternal organizations are considered in the same league as unions, and thus enjoy trade secret protection).

This is actually unclear. THe frats seem to threaten that they have trade secret protection. However, in order to have that protection, it has to be already established. For example, Coke has a trade secret protection on the forumla for coke. They had to apply to the government for that protection and it had to be approved. THis is actually a difficult process, and the government is generally not very giving in this repsect. I doubt that any frat has 'trade secret' protection on any of their 'rituals'. Especially because any frat is going to have built their rites and symbology upon something, on some other groups rites and symbols and interpretations, so it can't be claimed to be unique and original.

It is in the same category as looking through someone's trash to find out their credit history.

What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different that finding out the secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

at least in terms of Sigma Chi, you're way off on your symbolism.

How is he incorrect?

Maybe I need to be a little more educated about the website and how things run between the higher-ups, but should a MODERATOR really be the one saying "secret inane rites of some fruity little club."?

Again, I don't know if it's a common thing to take sides in a matter such as this, but if you are going to take sides, as a MODERATOR, why in the world do you have to clearly bash the side you're against? I'm pretty sure your post would have worked well like this:

___________________________________________________
This is actually unclear. The (if you have the word seem, that means they don't threaten at all, so either they threaten, or they don't) fraternities threaten that they have trade secret protection. However, in order to have that protection, it has to be established. For example, Coke has a trade secret protection on the forumla for coke. They had to apply to the government for that protection and it had to be approved. This is a difficult process, and the government is not very giving in this repsect (this is where you back up your statement with data or actual facts). I'm not sure if any fraternity has trade secret protection on any of their rituals (a ritual is a ritual, not a "ritual", there is no other connotation to the word and the ritual is a very real thing, so quotes are not needed unless you're "mocking"), because any fraternity has built their rites and symbology upon something--on some other group's/groups' (it depends if you're including one group or multiple groups in your accusations of being %100 unoriginal) rites, symbols and interpretations. (I deleted the last comment because it was wrong)

What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different than (not "that") finding out the secret rites of an organization. (see how much nicer that sentence is? It's not filled with any malice or obvious shots at fraternal life. It's a relative thing, too. Take my credit history; don't bash my fraternity. You have to understand who you're dealing with in these matters, but I shouldn't need to tell a MODERATOR that.)

How is he incorrect? (this was your best sentence yet. Read the link I posted from wikipedia. I posted it so none of you would have to waste your time actually trying to find the website that tells you about the fraternity, cause I know you all looked so hard in the first place, but maybe the page was down?)
______________________________________________________

Originally posted by tlam643371

Maybe I need to be a little more educated about the website and how things run between the higher-ups, but should a MODERATOR really be the one saying "secret inane rites of some fruity little club."?

There is no reason for a Mod not to speak their mind as a member of the comunity. You can even argue with them if you want.

As for the trademark thing.. really such things like initiation rituals are covered by copyright like any other creative work. The copyright starts when the work is created and lasts until xx years after the work is first published or xx years after the copright holder dies. Now if a group who holds the copyright never publicly publishes it, the copyright won't expire.

I'm not sure how the authorship thing works, if a work was created by/for a group the group is the author thus the copyright expires xx years after the "death" of the group. (but if the group is "dead" who is going to sue for copyright reasons say 10 years after the "death"? former members?)

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by tlam643371

Maybe I need to be a little more educated about the website and how things run between the higher-ups, but should a MODERATOR really be the one saying "secret inane rites of some fruity little club."?

There is no reason for a Mod not to speak their mind as a member of the comunity. You can even argue with them if you want.

As for the trademark thing.. really such things like initiation rituals are covered by copyright like any other creative work. The copyright starts when the work is created and lasts until xx years after the work is first published or xx years after the copright holder dies. Now if a group who holds the copyright never publicly publishes it, the copyright won't expire.

I'm not sure how the authorship thing works, if a work was created by/for a group the group is the author thus the copyright expires xx years after the "death" of the group. (but if the group is "dead" who is going to sue for copyright reasons say 10 years after the "death"? former members?)

I agree that moderators should speak their mind, but I think there should be a level of professionalism involved; they're in a respected position. That may just be me, though.

Good information; thank you

Originally posted by ASigIAm213
If not, then what is the "legal claim" ATS admitted the fraternity had?

I wasn't here for the incident, so I have no idea.

What? No its not. Getting credit history is completely different that finding out the secret inane rites of some fruity little club.

First, explain how they're not both prying into someone else's business for no reason that could possibly benefit you, unless you have some scheme for "taking them down" or something.

Because a person's credit information can be used for illegal purposes, an initiation rite to some silly little club can't be used for anything illegal like that.

Second, if it's

e "inane rites" of some "fruity little club", why do you care to find out what they are?

I don't particularly care what those rites are, for just those reasons. They're even more silly and inane if they aren't built upon previous groups rites and histories, ie are completely novel fabrications (which they'd have to be to be protected as a trade secret). I also don't care because, I agree, its not really any of my business. I don't have any special right to know what private individuals do in private time on their private property. I wouldn't say its the same as identity theft either though.

which only supports my statement that few outside our fraternity have ever seen the Ritual.

Interesting.

The rituals are neither inane nor "fruity"; but secret, yes.

I'd venture to say that all rituals are inane and fruity, but perhaps thats another arguement for another time! I am sure that the members find them solem and honorable, but then again, the Shia think it pious to clap knives on their heads, and the yehudis find it necessary to wrap straps of leather around their arms and wear silly boxes on their heads when praying.

Hazing has been stomped upon, so while not inexistent, it's uncommon

Really? Thats funny, because on my campus sigma chi pledges carried around ziplock bags of their superiors excrement. Another frat had "Beer Olympics" in their house's basement. They'd have chugging events, power hours, etc, and also run laps in the basement. They kept a big garbage pail nearby for everyone to puke in, after a few hours, the thing'd fill up. One frat almost burnt their house down because they had so much garbage and toilet paper in their party basement, the same basement that they'd lock pledges into for hours at a time.
I guess its more solemn when you're the one with your head in a garbage pail with 4 feet of puke filling it. *shrugs*

Please, state how this is a difficult process and the percent of trade secrets allowed and percent of trade secrets denied.

Wouldn't it just be easier to produce the federal document that shows the trade secret protection? Does your chapter have such a document?

[edit on 21-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by tlam643371
Maybe I need to be a little more educated about the website and how things run between the higher-ups, but should a MODERATOR really be the one saying "secret inane rites of some fruity little club."?

Most discussion sites have their moderators stay out of the conversations. This one encourages it. Moderators are picked from the membership, I doubt anyone of us would take up the responsibilites of being a moderator if we were, at the same time, prevented from discussing these issues. Therefore, you can see that my opinions and ideas are just that, my opinions and ideas, not the site's.

but if you are going to take sides, as a MODERATOR, why in the world do you have to clearly bash the side you're against?

I'm not against anyone here. I'm merely participating in a conversation. I agree that private people have a right to privacy. However, also notice that the private right isn't exactly over-ridden by someone posting a ritual, the ritual on its own doesn't have any right to privacy, its just a script on paper.

but I think there should be a level of professionalism involved

Not for nothing, but this seems to imply that the rituals aren't inane or fruity, which, I suspect, is untrue, especially considering the whole 'carrying poo in ziplock bags' bit.

Cug
You can even argue with them if you want.

Whoa whoa, who said that that was permited? *hits ban button*

really such things like initiation rituals are covered by copyright like any other creative work.

A potential problem here is that you'd have to say 'this is our ritual', to enforce that protection. And, in doing so, any Trade Secret Protection would be given up. I can't, for example, obtain Coke's recipe and publish it as such. However, I can publish the recipe for Coke (soda, colouring, sugar, carmel colouring, etc).