Originally posted by Hawk
How could anyone have legal claim on a ritual?

If you write a ritual, it automatically becomes intellectual property (the same as with all writings), and is protected under copyright law.

If your ritual is an initiation ceremony for a private fraternity, and you want to keep it private, the law is on your side. The work belongs to you, it is your invention, your property, to do with as you please.

There were recent proceedings in which Ordo Templi Orientis, an occult fraternity, brought suit against several ISP's, alleging that said ISP's provided websites where private O.T.O. initiation ceremonies were published, in violation of copyright law. O.T.O. won the suit, and the material has been removed from the several websites which were offensive to the owners of the rituals.

Fiat Lvx.

CommonSense and Mirthful Me beat me to the punch. The administrator should read over his link to the trade secret definition and he will be pleasantly surprised.

Have you noticed that instead of giving us some hard documentation from an organizations lawyer or such, he instead gives us a link to a definition? Makes me still presume that the positive posts on fraternities was damaging and that since there was no anti-fraternity message on the board it had to go.

I believe that the OWNER of the site has the right to determine just exactly what and what cannot be posted.

further, what right do you think you have to read and know secrets that are private to the organization?

Careful sillywilly,
My comments were more of an academic nature on the legal issues, not an attack on ATS. I noted that you opened a new thread on the same subject. That's not in keeping with ATS rules. I've commented in that thread and suspect that it will be locked soon. Remember, we're guests here - not owners.
CS

CommonSense,

Sorry I wasn't trying to change the sounding of your legal opinion. I'm just after an open diologue of fraternity issues. Trading rituals is one thing, but shutting down the whole thread that had viable discussions considering the religious aspects of rituals, the social demographics of fraternities, the negative stereotypes and media bias were all things discussed on the thread. What is the harm in conversating in this matter. I am still looking for someone to point out the wrong in that and how it violates the terms of conduct.

My belief is that the thread was too positive. There was no discussion on how bad fraternities were or a conspiracy on taking over the world. While this thread was taken down, others remain that discuss trading rituals, secrets, etc. I would just like to hear a better, more logical reasoning for taking down the thread. That's all.

Originally posted by slickwilly95991
CommonSense,

My belief is that the thread was too positive. There was no discussion on how bad fraternities were or a conspiracy on taking over the world.

Slickwilly, I do not think ATS took down the thread because it was too positive. Why would they do that? It was probably someone from an organization that saw some of the content on the thread and ATS agreed to take it off out of good faith. The information on the thread wasn't so benefical that ATS should have to take the risk of being sued if they kept it up. Get off their back. You can still talk about religous influences in fraternities etc in another thread if you would like.

just my 2 cents.

Just as a point of information from previously being in a Fraternity, I thought that this might be relevant. Most of all rituals for almost every fraternity are published. The publishing was done by independent researchers and can be found in old books. I found one when I was doing research for a class in college. Also some of the rituals are public, meaning friends and family can observe and/ or participate in the ritual. Furthermore, some rituals soley belong to an individual chapter, not the entire orgainization. Other times there are a branch from from the original and new traditions are added.

Now as with regards to removing this thread, unless you have sworn not to reveal the secrets of a fraternity, meaning you were a full pledged member, then you can reveal information about the organization. Its up to you. Somecan can ask you not do to something, but you dont have to. Get my drift?

Wow, did someone roll over. Unless ATS advertised that thread for profit, or to get people to join the ATS Fraternaty, ATS can't be held respondsable

Actually, once the lawyers contacted ATS and made the request the ritual known as "sword rattling" has begun.

If ATS did not comply with the request they open themselves up to civil litigation.

The rituals are most likely owned by the fraternity, possibly even holding a copy right to the rituals, hand books and by laws etc.

While on a purely legal standpoint ATS may not have done anything wrong, copyright and Intellectual Property law are tricky and fraternities have deep pockets. Why open yourself up to losing thousands of dollars on lawyer bills alone just to fight for your right to post Fraternity secrets.

It's just not the fight to pick (battle to choose?).

Hell, I was in a fraternity during my years at university and there was absolutely nothing incredible going on. We were as stupid as the rest of the students we just had a bigger place to pass out.

I refer you also to Masonic Light's post a few posts up.

Spiderj

[edit on 7/11/2004 by Spiderj]

Originally posted by Spiderj

While on a purely legal standpoint ATS may not have done anything wrong, copyright and Intellectual Property law are tricky and fraternities have deep pockets.

Spiderj

[edit on 7/11/2004 by Spiderj]

Spider, I'm an officer of one of the more financially prominent national fraternities. National fraternities do not have the deep pockets that you might think. The ones with the money are the educational foundations that almost all fraternities have that take donations from alumni. Those funds must be used for educational purposes and suing for something like this does not go under the heading of education.

I haven't taken International law just yet, but there may be a problem with this host website being in the UK. I just read an article somewhere about a music sharing website in Europe or Asia that is perfectly legal to have. It's illegal for Americans to download from the site, but not illegal for the citizens of the country to have and operate the site for their own citizens. The internet has caused a lot of legal problems and I believe one day this great medium will be regulated by the international governments just like it is in China...

National fraternities do not have the deep pockets that you might think.

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but I do think it's safe to assume their pockets are deeper than the person or persons running this sight.

As far as law goes I'm certainly no expert especially when dealing with laws outside the U.S., I can barely follow the ones here.

Spiderj

Originally posted by slickwilly95991
... I am still looking for someone to point out the wrong in that and how it violates the terms of conduct.

My belief is that the thread was too positive. There was no discussion on how bad fraternities were or a conspiracy on taking over the world. While this thread was taken down, others remain that discuss trading rituals, secrets, etc. I would just like to hear a better, more logical reasoning for taking down the thread. That's all.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you have a gripe with the mods or administators here, why air it in the forum? It's not like anything said here will change the decision. u2u SimonGray, it was his decision.
All this does is create more division. We are visitors here, and we must abide by the rules and decisions of those who own and run this site.

And, as said by others, what right do we have to the secrets of organizations? There is no constitutional guarantee that we have rights to know everything about everyone.

Move along, slick.

I am a memeber of fraternity and yes i don't won't people to know my stuff but i do think that we have a right to snoop into other secret organizations stuff. If they would keep thier mouth shut and not say anything and not give out thier rituals then we wouldn't have anything to do and this would go away. Yet that didn't happen and therefor we have this situation. Oh i am a member of Pike just to let you know so that you won't think i am lying. It is not the collectors fault for collecting it is the fraternities fault for letting us get in there business. so lay of slick, i agree with you slick.

I am still looking for rituals to trade so holla at me since ATS won't let you post them anymore.

[edit on 11-7-2004 by qwerty99]

Thanks qwerty.

In my opinion the purpose of this thread has ran its course and is no longer relevant, especially to the topic of this board. It's bunk and the mods or admins or whoever can take it down and let the threads continue in their new forms. Thanks.

WISELY...

I do understand where your coming from. The College Fraternity secrets was an interesting thread, but if someone requests a thread to be removed with a legit reasons, it has to go . On the bright side though, you've struck a nerve with someone if they want information to be removed

Couldn't you have just moved it too RATS simon?Seems like every time real info is posted on this site we have to take it down. Don't take it down just move it to RATS.

I understand both sides of this one. One one hand you've got Simon with the Fraternities making a civil (and founded) request to remove this information, and the other the very nature of 'Deny Ignorance' blaring in the back of his mind.

I think removing it was the correct thing to do. HOWEVER, and I am speaking as a lawyer many years in practice (though not practicing any more), that whoever issued a claim to proceed legal injuncture in the case of non-removal really doesn't have a (legal) leg to stand on. Inter-juristictional cases on IP or Copyright are flaky at the best of times, and this one has more holes in it that a piece of swiss cheese.

B

Originally posted by machinegunjordan
Couldn't you have just moved it too RATS simon?Seems like every time real info is posted on this site we have to take it down. Don't take it down just move it to RATS.

he could do, but it will only protect it from search engines. What will happen if a member of a college fratenity signs up to watch what we post? if it goes in RATs, the member only needs a certain amount of posts to read it. I know we at ATS love uncovering secrets etc, but if someone goes to Simon and asks something to be removed, he has to. Last thing ATS wants is a lawsuit.

but it seems like the info on this site is either fake unproven or if real taken down.

Originally posted by SimonGray
I apologise for having to remove the College Fraternity Secrets topic, but I have been contacted by representatives of fraternities recently asking that information relating to their secret initiation ceremonies and rituals be removed.

They have legal cause to raise this concern, and as such I must comply.

Please be careful what you post in future. Despite AboveTopSecret.com's purpose of open alternative discussion, we must still comply with the law.

Sorry, that is a load of crap! They have ZERO legal cause to stand upon. I challenge ANYONE to cite any US statute or revised code that supports ANY legal claim by the whiny fraternities... ANY! The only possible legal ramifications would be against any persons who entered into a legal agreement to maintain confidentiality of such "Secrets". ONLY THOSE PERSONS could be subject to legal recourse... PERIOD! Trade secrets do not apply here as these "Secrets" are not used in profiteering. There isn't a single court in the US that would even bother to hear this case! NOw the UK... perhaps their laws are different.

I am both saddened and ashamed of ATS for being so weak and trampling our rights to share information.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by kozmo]

[edit on 13-7-2004 by kozmo]