Bush flashing masonic sign on the back of his book.

Aren't we just getting into semantics here?

On her right hand, the left side of the picture, her ring finger and middle finger are obviously closer together than her pinky is to get ring finger, and her middle finger is to her index finger.

Not as pronounced as the picture of dubya, but where is the line drawn. Is there a special chart somewhere that gives measurements for what does and does not constitute a masonic hand symbol?

I hold my coffee cup the same way dubya is holding his all the time. I don't like holding it by the handle because one time I was holding the mug by the handle, which broke off, and the cup fell down not only spilling hot coffee on me, but also chipping my bottom right canine tooth. So now because I'm paranoid of that happening again I hold coffee cups with my index finger above the handle, my middle and ring finger in the handle, and my pinky below it. Exactly like dubya.

So if there was a picture of me on the web holding my coffee cup would people say I'm making mason symbols? Well you might say I'm not a well known world leader, wouldn't that be even MORE of a case that I'm a high ranking mason who is controlling the world? I'm so powerful that nobody knows who I am?

Jumping Jupiters. Are you back to conspiracies about the weakness and neural lack of control over the ring finger again?

Here is a link about finger control. www.madsci.org...

Now that you have a starting point, please look for more on the subject.

I am sure that there are real hand signs used between people. It is one of the oldest forms of communication I'm sure, so that would be logical.

I am equally sure that making much ado about ones that are NOT is a very interesting waste of time if you're interested in it.

i'm confused,

i thought everyone thought of him as an idiot.

so by extrapolation, these idiots are running your life?

lol.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree

Yeah, I know plenty 32nd and I don't see them flashing that around. I'm sure one of my Brothers of the Scottish Rite persuasion could enlighten us.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree

In this day and age no one needs to use sign language, they have technology.

reply to post by fooks

Makes you think who the idiot really is.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
For the same reason that hundreds of thousands of non-Masons do it in videos that have nothing to do with Masonry? Because it's how our hands are built?

Just because people may accidentally use this hand position, doesn't mean everyone that does it does it accidently. Theres an entire language based on hand signs.

Its also in art.

JOURNAL OF HAND SURGERY
www.jhandsurg.org...

Hand gestures play a crucial role in religious art. An examination of Judeo-Christian art finds an ecclesiastical language that is concealed in metaphors and expressed by unique hand gestures. Many of these hand signs convey messages that are not familiar to most people admiring these paintings. Investigating the history and classifying some of the predominant hand signs found in Judeo-Christian art might serve to stimulate discussion concerning the many nuances of symbolic art. This presentation examines the meaning behind 8 common hand signs in Judeo-Christian art.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Or, maybe I need to play to your paranoid side. EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW DOES THE SAME SIGN. Look for it. They're all out to get you.

Paranoid? Sign language does not make me paranoid.

Why do you believe sign language makes me paranoid?

I shall end my post with 32nd Mason flashing the same hand sign a second time (he does it way more than 2 times throughout the lodge video)

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
I shall end my post with 32nd Mason flashing the same hand sign a second time (he does it way more than 2 times throughout the lodge video)

He's not flashing a sign, he's gesticulating. That's all.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
I shall end my post with 32nd Mason flashing the same hand sign a second time (he does it way more than 2 times throughout the lodge video)

He's not flashing a sign, he's gesticulating. That's all.

Exactly.

Finally we can agree that hes gesticulating.

STUDY done by JOURNAL OF HAND SURGERY

An examination of Judeo-Christian art finds an ecclesiastical language that is concealed in metaphors and expressed by unique hand gestures. Many of these hand signs convey messages that are not familiar to most people

www.jhandsurg.org...

Sign language and hand gestures have meaning while speaking. On many different levels.

Most people are Unconscious Incompetence (at best Conscious Incompetence) to this fact.

This forum is a good example of that.

I dont blame you for not fully understanding whats going on, your in the majority.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree


Yes, but in painting, the subject is sitting there posing for HOURS.

In photography, the average shutter speed is 1/125 of a second. A frame from video is 1/30 of a second.

You have yet to show INTENT in either the Bush picture or the frame of video from the 32° Mason. (And by the way, you keep saying that like that makes him important. More than half the Masons on ATS are 32° in the Scottish Rite. It only take about a hundred bucks and a weekend of watching plays put on to go from 3° to 32°. It's not really an accomplishment, nor does it make the guy in the video a spokesman for Masonry.)

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Yes, but in painting, the subject is sitting there posing for HOURS.

That fact has nothing to do with intent for using sign language.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
In photography, the average shutter speed is 1/125 of a second. A frame from video is 1/30 of a second.

This has nothing to do with the intent of using sign language.

The chances are greater, that that picture was CHOSEN (intent) from other pictures.

Any good Photographers don't take just one picture and are done with it. Especially for the back of a book.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
You have yet to show INTENT in either the Bush picture or the frame of video from the 32° Mason.

Masons on this board wanted images from Masonic literature, so I posted it (i knew they would claim its still not enough, lol). Thats how I'm relating the hand sign (from masonic literature and masonic brothers. As well as the study which shows intent by use of art (which show the same and similar hand gestures).

Heres the evidence:

The guy in the frame is speaking about MASONIC SYMBOLOGY (im not claiming this gesture is masonic, just that its symbolic language) while giving that hand gesture.

The guy is specifically saying "and we'll get into some of the symbolism later on..."

While giving this symbolic gesture that is used to communicate as cited by the study.



These are facts.

I would say this is symbolic language used by Masons but not taught specifically to all Masons. It could be used in a variety of Secret Societies, and some Masons happen to use this symbolic language.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
(And by the way, you keep saying that like that makes him important. More than half the Masons on ATS are 32° in the Scottish Rite. It only take about a hundred bucks and a weekend of watching plays put on to go from 3° to 32°. It's not really an accomplishment, nor does it make the guy in the video a spokesman for Masonry.)

I point that out because we're talking specifically about Masons and Secret Societies. I know being a Mason isnt an accomplishment. Thats why basically anyone can be accepted

He doesnt have to be a spoke person for masonry.

The evidence shows a 32 degree mason using the same hand gestures that are used by intent in art work as stated by the study. They are used as metaphors and symbols.

In the video the guys specifically says (talking about masonic symbology) "and we'll get into some of the symbolism later on..." and happens to do the same hand gesture found in different art work that is proven to have communcation metphors within the hand gestures that "most people are not familiar with".

I dont care if your a 33 degree Mason, thats not the point.

The point is sign language is used to communicate within these societies of "religious men"- which is also found in religious art work (and statues in the Vatican) which intent was used to communicate.

Which, the study mentions, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH.

Naturally I would expect most Mason not to know this because "most people are not familiar" with this knowledge as cited by the study.

Besides these facts, I have friends that are Masons that do the same hand sign as the 32nd in the picture. Its been about 8 years since we spoke, or else I would ask him.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree


you have a very interesting avitar. But your theory on that sign being anything related to masonry is completely incorrect. Even if you think a mason friend you haven't spoke to in 8 years may have said so. It isn't used in masonry, is isn't taught in masonry, and no mason would have any idea what you were trying to tell him if you flashed him that sign, unless you were wearing a Dio t-shirt and were holding up both of them. I don't mean to sound so "matter of fact" about it, but this has been discussed here for years and it has been proven time and again, that it has nothing to do with masonry. It may indeed be some other organizations recognition sign and all the big power players might be involved, but not craft masonry.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by ThreeThreeThree

 

you have a very interesting avitar. But your theory on that sign being anything related to masonry is completely incorrect. Even if you think a mason friend you haven't spoke to in 8 years may have said so. It isn't used in masonry, is isn't taught in masonry, and no mason would have any idea what you were trying to tell him if you flashed him that sign, unless you were wearing a Dio t-shirt and were holding up both of them. I don't mean to sound so "matter of fact" about it, but this has been discussed here for years and it has been proven time and again, that it has nothing to do with masonry. It may indeed be some other organizations recognition sign and all the big power players might be involved, but not craft masonry.

Well the evidence shows a 32nd degree using that hand gesture (in a :"Behind Closed Door Maonsry Video", so by association evidence it has SOMETHING related to masonry in some way. I am not saying it is taught in Masonry, but its related some way (if not only by PRINCIPLES).

I posed Evidence within a Masonic Handbook showing a man doing the same hand gesture Bush is doing. It is not taught in the book, yet it shows the symbolism. That is fact.

It is a fact this symbolism is used to communicate with intention used in religious art. A lot of secret societies/ occult societies are made up of "religious men". Which obviously understand this communication language.

I have all the books on all degrees (atleast I have Master Masons, 33 degree, Royal Arch, Templars, and more related societies all from their own lodges). I have not read them (only looked at the illustration), but I will eventually.

I agree that these hand signs are not taught in Masonic Ritual books. I know, because I have them.

The point is, Mason or not.. People (Masons included) use these hand signs/gestures to communicate with intention.

Thats all.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree


I guess my point is, if it was a masonic symbol used to communicate something, we as ATS masons would attempt to give you a non answer to the question so as not to lie, but also not to divulge a secret we should be keeping. As a mason, specifically a 32nd degree Scottish Rite mason, I think it would be quite stupid to have a widely used hand sign that nobody in the craft knew. It would be much like talking to yourself. It could very well be something the Skull and Bones uses and obviously I am sure there could be a mason who went to Yale and was also a member of that organization.

reply to post by ThreeThreeThree



Yes there are hand signs in Judeo-Christian Art.

None of which are this one you are depicting. Middle and Ring Finger together, pinky and index gently splayed away.

Nor does it appear to be one in Hindu, Islam, or Judaism

If you know otherwise,please put it up.

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Yes, but in painting, the subject is sitting there posing for HOURS.

That fact has nothing to do with intent for using sign language.

No, but it has everything to do with Judeo-Christian portraiture, a subject you seem to want to talk about.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
In photography, the average shutter speed is 1/125 of a second. A frame from video is 1/30 of a second.

This has nothing to do with the intent of using sign language.

The chances are greater, that that picture was CHOSEN (intent) from other pictures.

And likewise, I can say that you chose that one frame from that 32° Mason's video, CHOOSING it over the thousands of frames where his hands were not in that shape.

Any good Photographers don't take just one picture and are done with it. Especially for the back of a book.

Well, there's no reason NOT to use it, if that's not actually a symbol with any meaning.

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
The point is, Mason or not.. People (Masons included) use these hand signs/gestures to communicate with intention.

What are they communicating?

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by ThreeThreeThree

 

Yes there are hand signs in Judeo-Christian Art.

None of which are this one you are depicting. Middle and Ring Finger together, pinky and index gently splayed away.

Nor does it appear to be one in Hindu, Islam, or Judaism

If you know otherwise,please put it up.

If that exact hand gesture is in Christian art is not really the point. The point is that hand gestures are used to communicate intentionally rather than just by randomness or chance.

That sign (the one bush is doing) may not appear in Judeo- Christian art, but it does appear in art that is hundreds of years old. That hand gesture (that bush is doing) also appears in a Masonic Manual, so it has ties to Masonry.

The sign that the 32nd degree uses in the video is the one found in the Christian art. Its also a mudra that can be found in Hindu (i think) art. Also in the Chinese as well. You can also find hand gestures on the vatican statues.

flickr.com/photos/79925372@N00/392987253/#/ (2 middle fingers touching and to outer fingers separate on vatican statue, left hand). Pretty obvious its the same gesture Bush is doing.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
And likewise, I can say that you chose that one frame from that 32° Mason's video, CHOOSING it over the thousands of frames where his hands were not in that shape.

Interesting opinion you have.

Proof is in your own Masonic hand books.

Your opinion means nothing.

Evidence is all I care about.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
The point is, Mason or not.. People (Masons included) use these hand signs/gestures to communicate with intention.

What are they communicating?

Are images from your own Masonic Hand book and from your Masonic brothers good enough for you?

I have more images from masonic literature.

I will post them for everyone else to see.

The Masons that deny it, don't know.

Because the Masons that do know, don't talk.

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
Proof is in your own Masonic hand books.

No, it isn't. The drawing you showed was an illustration of the candidate reacting to what the other brothers are doing. The candidate isn't prepped in advance. He's blindfolded and doesn't know what's going to happen to him. So how would he know to give a certain sign? Yes, elsewhere in masonic texts you will find a few specific signs. I won't deny that they're signs used by Masons. But they're clearly labeled in such texts like "this is the due guard or penal sign of an Entered Apprentice Mason".

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by ThreeThreeThree
Proof is in your own Masonic hand books.

No, it isn't. The drawing you showed was an illustration of the candidate reacting to what the other brothers are doing. The candidate isn't prepped in advance. He's blindfolded and doesn't know what's going to happen to him. So how would he know to give a certain sign? Yes, elsewhere in masonic texts you will find a few specific signs. I won't deny that they're signs used by Masons. But they're clearly labeled in such texts like "this is the due guard or penal sign of an Entered Apprentice Mason".

The difference between us is you believe its randomness.

I believe its 100% intentional on the part of the artist.

That same gesture is show in other art work and in statues.



I have more pictures from a Masonic work by a Mason that shows the same hand signs that Bush is doing in Masonic art work thats almost 300 years old.

The same hand gesture is on a stamp. (i think its a stamp

I will be posting it shortly.

Sadly I know the Masons here will still deny it when its right there in plain sight.

Masonry is a great belief system. Its a shame most people are kept in the dark.

Its sad, really. Really sad.