It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

In the 21st century, why does Freemasonry still discriminate against women ?

page: 8
2
<< 5  6  7    9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 11:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

The earliest enactments of the western mysteries were not segregated according to gender as far as I can tell.


Depends on which mysteries we're talking about. The earliest ones do indeed appear to be gender segregated, some of which are still in existence in shamanic tribes. The Osirian Mysteries were segregated, with the Mysteries of Isis being only for females. The Mysteries of Mithras were also male-only, while the Grecian Mysteries conferred at Eleusis were open to both sexes.

I think the Golden Dawn did a good thing by allowing women, but the Rosicrucian mysteries and Masonic ones are not identical, with the Masonic being those of the Osirian-Mithraic model.
edit on 10-2-2011 by Masonic Light because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 08:26 AM
link   
reply to post by Masonic Light
 





I think the Golden Dawn did a good thing by allowing women, but the Rosicrucian mysteries and Masonic ones are not identical, with the Masonic being those of the Osirian-Mithraic model.


I am sure if it does it's a tightly gaurded secret, but do these mysteries actually disclose what the heck happens to the missing socks after your clothes come out of the dryer?

If they do just cough twice, if they don't just cough once.

Thanks.



posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 08:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I am sure if it does it's a tightly gaurded secret, but do these mysteries actually disclose what the heck happens to the missing socks after your clothes come out of the dryer?



Those mysteries are reserved to devotees of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. According to her Adepts, such socks are raptured.



posted on Feb, 11 2011 @ 09:06 AM
link   
reply to post by Masonic Light
 





“We believe in One Unicorn, The Pink, The Invisible. Creator of Uncertainty, Keeper of Chaos, our Maker, revealed unto us in the alt.atheist usenet forum. She that Raptures Socks, She will smite those that mock Her brethren. When heathens partake in baloney, she invites her loyal servants to join the feast. We shall eat our fill, yea every belly shall be full with pure, untarnished, unadulterated, suffer-free pizza. Her revelations show us the folly of all religions, our personal insignificance, the understanding of existence, and the importance of 42. Spread Her Word.”


www.varsity.co.nz...

42? That's Jack Lambert's number, and yes I am sure Pittsburgh would have won the most recent Super Bowl if he was playing.

At last the true religon has been found, break out the tomato sauce, role the dough, grade the cheese and let us eat pizza till we are bloated and full and rejoice that the dark days of humanity are finally at an end.

Hold on while I check with my Conch Shell though, I would not want to upset Lord Vishnu.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 02:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Depends on which mysteries we're talking about. The earliest ones do indeed appear to be gender segregated, some of which are still in existence in shamanic tribes. The Osirian Mysteries were segregated, with the Mysteries of Isis being only for females. The Mysteries of Mithras were also male-only, while the Grecian Mysteries conferred at Eleusis were open to both sexes.


By Western mysteries, I was referring to the Eleusian, I should have been more specific. Mithras was a much later adoption and worked in conjuction with the military occupation, serving to assimilate tribalism into Roman legions. And in terms of Egypt, Persia and the Levant, the 'mysteries' that precede segregation of communion, generally, as in those that are not simply rites of passage, which do, clearly, differ between the gender experience, are rarely talked about outside of archaelogical circles.

When you look to the earliest expressions of 'religion', environment is the key factor. Since the practices, or the cultural structure that developed in the Near East, has come to dominate the 'West', that of Eve being made of Adam, and therefore an extension of him and his property. In Egypt, especially in the earlier dynasties, there is a clear understanding of the physiological differences between the genders, which is coupled with a comprehension of the similarities of intellect, the part of the brain that they represent as the 'crown' in symbology.

The way in which Shamanism is practiced depends upon the environment and then the economy. The harsher the environment, the harder it is to reproduce and the greater the emphasis on protecting reproducing females and off-spring. The mother is valued and to an extent enjoyed ease. Interestingly enough, a recent study by the University of York Department of Archaeology found that the development of the 'Sling' to carry small children, while leaving the hands free, 60,000 years ago was a possible catalyst for our social development. In so far as, instead of being stuck in caves with nothing much to do but paint and the such like, due to the danger of predators, the mother's could get busy and started growing things around the caves and started keeping animals. I digress though, Shamanism, in short depends on the environment and the dominant cultural influence as to whether it is segregational or not, though most cultures do have an inner core 'Secret Society' of Hunters, which is male only. The Mithriac Cults were very much a refinement of that structure, something familiar but prissied up, knowing enough to create awe with 'magic'...Kipling's The Man who would be King...sort of thing.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 02:12 AM
link   
Men need something which is their own space - so do women.

If men and women can't escape from each other sometimes, everyone will go nuts.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 10:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Mithriac Cults were very much a refinement of that structure, something familiar but prissied up, knowing enough to create awe with 'magic'...Kipling's The Man who would be King...sort of thing.
And, of course, both Kipling and the character he wrote in "The Man Who Would Be King" were Masons.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 10:12 AM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


There are other branches of Masonsry for women. My Great-Grandmother belonged to the Order of the Eastern Star when I grew up with her. I was raised in Baldwinsville New York so I don't know if they are everywhere. She never talked about it but, got dressed up beautifully and attended these meetings alone without my Great Grandfather. This was over 30 years ago but, I looked it up to see if I could get some old photos from the group and they are affiliated.



posted on Feb, 12 2011 @ 04:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes


I don't believe in the conspiracy theory that Freemasonry is some sort of malevolent organisation, or that members hold some esoteric knowledge that non-Masons are not privy to.
In fact, I consider Freemasonry to be little more than an old boy's club.



edit on 20-1-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)


You sure about that? That's exactly what they want us to think. Bohemian Grove, Illuminati and Freemasonry are ALL RELATED.

Here is footage Alex Jones shot of Bohemian Grove, the only outsider we know of that has gone in. It shows the Cremation of Care ceremony, a burning of an effigy in front of a giant owl statue. Old men in a cult, scary.

www.youtube.com...

When some of the most powerful men in the world get together and participate in these types of strange rituals, it makes you think that maybe they do not have the peoples' best interests in mind.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 03:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by JoshNorton
And, of course, both Kipling and the character he wrote in "The Man Who Would Be King" were Masons.


Yes I know. 'If' is a favourite poem of mine. 'Kim' one of the finest spy novels ever written, in my opinion. Kipling ticks many of my boxes. I've also always enjoyed the acting of Ernest Bourgnine.

I have no issue with Freemasons as individuals.


This is my favourite Kipling, talks of other types of 'magic' and is very much in keeping with the discussion if not the OP...

boop.org...

A man who saw far more than that which was presented to him.

I am currently reading The Hobbit to my son. By another Freemason. We read The Chronicles of Narnia not long back. Yet another one. I have learnt a great deal from those two in particular. Good men.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 10:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by Topato
You sure about that? That's exactly what they want us to think. Bohemian Grove, Illuminati and Freemasonry are ALL RELATED.

Here is footage Alex Jones shot of Bohemian Grove, the only outsider we know of that has gone in. It shows the Cremation of Care ceremony, a burning of an effigy in front of a giant owl statue. Old men in a cult, scary.

www.youtube.com...

When some of the most powerful men in the world get together and participate in these types of strange rituals, it makes you think that maybe they do not have the peoples' best interests in mind.
So, which ones in Alex Jones' video were Freemasons. How do you know? Did you recognize them from your local lodge? See pictures of them in Freemason magazines? Or on lodge websites? And which people in Alex's video are the most powerful men in the world? I'd love to put the faces to some actual names...

(Sorry to go offtopic, but Topato apparently has "proof" that none of the internet, nor the thousands of threads about Alex Jones on ATS, have ever shown before!)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 11:20 AM
link   
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Topato has one, old, tired video that has been rehashed a million times. Even the elite men that go to these things realize what a silly and worthless event that it is.

I guess people don't realize that the main function of all these events is to see, and be seen. It is networking. It is validation. It isn't some supernatural event, it is a high-end retreat where you can make sure your peers and competitors know that you are part of the group. Maybe you make a contact that helps you get a contract or a campaign donation. Maybe you get a leg up on a competitor that wasn't invited. Who knows, but the point is, there is no supernatural power, and it is not related to Freemasonry.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 11:59 AM
link   

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 






******************************************************************************************
As to your baseless claim of "subjugation of women." Maybe you should meet some Masonic wives before you toss that out there. Family is extremely important, and Masonry is a vessel for "making good men better," so you necessarily find some of the happiest and most successful marriages you've ever seen. Masonic brothers help one another out through hard marital times, and we teach love, respect, charity, etc. I'll bet you the shirt off my back that you cannot find a woman married to a Mason that will tell you we subjugate women. You might find some that say we hijack too much of their husband's time, but you won't find any that say we are not the utmost respectful and kind to women.
edit on 25-1-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given=



I am the wife of a Mason and you have lost your bet. Masons - some at least - most definitely subjugate women.

Further:

1. I have seen absolutely no evidence in the more that 10 years that my husband has been a Mason that family is extremely important. In fact only evidence to the contrary, for example mason only social gatherings organised on Sunday afternoons. Tomorrow is Valentine's day and just maybe I would like to spend the evening with my husband, but, no, he has a 'commitment' at Lodge. Coming home at 12:30 at night (not just him, many of his 'brothers' do the same,) knowing that I do not sleep well due to crime (I have already been robbed at gun point during the night in my home) and that I need to get up at 5 to go to work the next day. Less that 4.5 hours sleep a night is NOT kind to me, Nor to the other wives that put up with the same.

Hijacking my husband's time is NOT kind to me.

So please explain how family is important when it takes my husband away from his family 2-3 times a week and puts him in danger because he is driving late at night (the society we live in is extremely violent).

2. The argument that sex would get in the way is non-sense. My husband's mother lodge has several gays, and I suspect strongly that one of them had a crush on my husband,

3. Excluding women based on the fact that tradititionally women did not belong to stone mason's guilds is not historically accurate. There is historic evidence that women did indeed become stone masons, and were admitted to the guilds, esepecially in the case where the wife supported her husband in his work i.e. she was skilled) and he died, allowing the wife to carrying on her husband's trade and support the family.

4. I know for some men that masonry is about making business contacts, or social-climbing reason (yes, I know that this is not encouraged) but it IS a fact, but for my husband it is for spiritual reasons, So, by my sex I am denied sharing this very personal aspect of his life with him (but the gays can?) and not participate in his spiritual life.

5. I was invited to join a 'co-ed' lodge, While my husband would be welcome at this lodge as a visitor, if the word got out, he would chucked out of his male masonry lodge as they are forbidden from from associating with lodges they don't recognise e.g a 'co-ed' lodge. I wonder why on earth would this be other than to exert undue control over the members?

6. My husband's lodge has never, in 10 years, invited wives to any social event. Oh, I forgot about a year-end dinner where the gay with a crush on my husband looked daggers at me all night.

7. I have accompanied my husband to a ladies' night at another lodge. Um... let's see... Karaoke night. How exciting and intellectually stimulating.

8. One 'well-respected' mason in my husband's lodge couldn't give me a water-tight reason for excluding women. He eventually fell to the argument that men need to get together to do manly things. My mind boggles as to exactly what that means.

Subjugation does not have to be overt in the sense of beating up your wife. Belonging to an organisation that excludes women is enough. Not too many years ago, in the courntry where I live at least, jewish people were not allowed into most country clubs. This seems ludicrous today and very discrimnatory. How is freemasonry any different?








edit on 13-2-2011 by Ouette because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-2-2011 by Ouette because: (no reason given)
extra DIV



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 03:01 PM
link   
reply to post by Ouette
 


Do not blame the fraternity for you and your husband's shortcomings.

I can recommend you one thing- communicate more with your husband if you don't already. Most of your problems are communication issues. In fact, SHOW your husband your post. If you love him you will show him your post.

A candidate can not join the fraternity without the spouses approval. For those reasons of keeping family together.

********If you married him knowingly that he was in a fraternity then you voluntarily accepted that he has to fulfill his fraternal obligations.******************* Valentines day is nothing but a marketing gimmick and you should treat your love the same way on Valentines day except every day.

Any real evidence of women being stone masons besides your hearsay? Both now and in the past.
edit on 13-2-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 03:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by fordrew
Any real evidence of women being stone masons besides your hearsay? Both now and in the past.


Plenty. I have posted links to articles myself on that topic, many times. I am happy to hunt them down for you, if you really care, but then if you did I am sure you can use the search function. They will be replies on this board, Secret Societies. Shouldn't be too hard. But otherwise, my word can be good enough support for her argument, I think.

The lady makes a good point. The Freemasons don't always take good men and make them better. Your response helps her to demonstrate that point too. Classy.
edit on 13-2-2011 by KilgoreTrout because: diddling



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 03:38 PM
link   
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


and you sound like a cut throat heartless bitch in all your posts. Classy. I wouldn't be surprised if you enjoy doing this.


edit on 13-2-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 03:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by fordrew
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


and you sound like a cut throat heartless bitch in all your posts. Classy. I wouldn't be surprised if you enjoy doing this.



Compliments will get you everywhere


I never claimed to have class. She does though.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 05:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Ouette
Tomorrow is Valentine's day and just maybe I would like to spend the evening with my husband, but, no, he has a 'commitment' at Lodge. Coming home at 12:30 at night...


Are you aware that Feburary 13th is often called Valen-swine's Day as it is the day that married men take their girlfriends out? Are you certain he actually has a lodge function this evening that you can verify? This sounds more like marital issues then Masonic issues. Perhaps a frank and candid conversation with your husband about how you feel you are being treated would be in order, this does not appear to be a happy situation and you should not have to endure behavior that makes you feel this way emotionally.


So please explain how family is important when it takes my husband away from his family 2-3 times a week...


Unless he is working at the District or Grand Lodge level where frequent travel is in order being out that frequent is highly unusual. Ask him what purpose the events he is attending are for.


My husband's lodge has never, in 10 years, invited wives to any social event.


Our lodge has many wife/girlfriend events or open houses throughout the year. We invite them to our yearly installation ceremony and dinner. This is also true for the Gold and Slver Token dinners and events. We just had our Valentine Social. We have a wine tasting scheduled for March. They are invited to attend Grand Lodge with us in April. We have our yearly trip to Yankee Stadium in August. The annual picnic/carnival is in September and our Lodge Ladies Night is the following month at a banquet hall.

Maybe the ladies should mention to their husbands that they would like to see more activities scheduled. It can not hurt to ask. They also frequently get together on their own and do women-only activities.



edit on 13-2-2011 by AugustusMasonicus because: Networkdude has no beer



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 06:01 PM
link   
reply to post by Ouette
 


I'm sorry, and I certainly have no excuse for your husband's behavior, but it sounds like more of an excuse than anything. I have been to at least a dozen lodges, and I have never seen that type of behavior. The only things wives are not invited to is business meetings and degree work. In my area the wives are always invited to social gatherings, lodge cleanups, meals, etc., etc. My wife has accompanied me to many things. And often times, the wives are even invited to MasterMason degrees, they just can't sit in during the degree, but there are other events planned for them during the degree time, and we all eat together and make an afternoon of it. (Similar to your Sunday afternoon complaing.)

Like anything, some Masons do get overwhelmed, or almost addicted to their activities, and they over-indulge, but their brothers should be looking out for them and steering them the right direction. If your husband's behavior is typical for his lodge, then it is just a sad anomaly, and I apologize for them. You should really speak up about it.

My only disagreement with your statement is this

6. My husband's lodge has never, in 10 years, invited wives to any social event. Oh, I forgot about a year-end dinner where the gay with a crush on my husband looked daggers at me all night.


That seems contradictory, if you were never invited, why did you name at least two events that you attended.

Also, not to open a whole other can of worms, but gay men in Masonry are extremely rare. It isn't impossible, but I have never personally seen such a thing. Your husband's lodge sounds very strange to me.



posted on Feb, 13 2011 @ 06:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Topato has one, old, tired video that has been rehashed a million times. Even the elite men that go to these things realize what a silly and worthless event that it is.

I guess people don't realize that the main function of all these events is to see, and be seen. It is networking. It is validation. It isn't some supernatural event, it is a high-end retreat where you can make sure your peers and competitors know that you are part of the group. Maybe you make a contact that helps you get a contract or a campaign donation. Maybe you get a leg up on a competitor that wasn't invited. Who knows, but the point is, there is no supernatural power, and it is not related to Freemasonry.



This is not entirely true, many look forward to it for the relaxation and letting there hair down and seeing friends event that it is, but also it is a vast networking opportunity that is very similiar to say a Chamber of Commerce meeting or Round Table for big boys.

They get lots of world class entertainment, away from their offices and wives for the duration they can break away, and they do privately discuss and yes decide some important business and political matters as far as how and where they are going to steer their business and influence in things.

Not as sinister as some would make it out to be, not as entirely innocent either.

When I lived in L.A. I got invited every year, though rarely attended due to the demands of my own work.

No place where Proto is invited is entirely innocent in the scheme of things.

I can say without hesitation it is not Masonic and it's not occult, though some of the people who do attend are closet homosexuals, and into some sexual perversions, but no more so than most mainstream members of the middle class are.

The staged annual entertainment is not occult ritual, but simply club ritual, started at a time when San Francisco was sorely lacking the world class entertainments it does today, at the time the club itself was founded.

Back in the roaring twenties clubs like the Bohemian, Johnathon and California would have nights where they would soap down the floors and slide up and down them in drag, just for something novel to do in a merry drunken state.

These are simply the kind of thigns the idle rich do to entertain themselves because they can.

If you don't mind being stuck out in the middle of no where for a while it's actually a semi-fun and interesting place.



new topics

top topics


active topics

 
2
<< 5  6  7    9  10 >>

log in

join