In the 21st century, why does Freemasonry still discriminate against women ?

page: 1
2
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:41 PM
link   
To become a Freemason, there are three basic criteria that you have to fulfil:

1. Be a man.

2. Be of good character and morality, and be recommended by somebody who is already a Mason.

3. Believe in a supreme being, aka ''Grand Architect of the Universe''.


There may be some other rules that apply from one Lodge to another, but these are the three main boxes that have to ticked before entering mainstream Masonry.


Rule no. 2 is based upon an assessment of someone's personal actions, and consequently a group or organisation has every right to deny someone membership based upon these grounds.

Rule no. 3 is based upon personal choice. Everybody has the choice to believe or disbelieve in a supreme being, and once again, an organisation is well within their rights to deny someone entry, whose personal choice goes against the ethos or philosophy of the said establishment.

Now we get on to rule no.1, which is denying somebody membership based upon a genetic factor that they have no control over; in this case, their gender.


I realise the historic context that may have been relevant when this rule was implemented, but would it not be better to ''tweak'' this rule, considering how ridiculous it is now ?

It's no different than a group that has a ''no blacks'', ''no Jews'', or ''no gays'' membership requirement.
How would a group with that criteria be considered ?


I don't believe in the conspiracy theory that Freemasonry is some sort of malevolent organisation, or that members hold some esoteric knowledge that non-Masons are not privy to.
In fact, I consider Freemasonry to be little more than an old boy's club.

Some Masons, in defence against wild accusations against their society, will often state that they are a group whose intent is charitable and worthy; the furtherance of a man's spirit, if you will.

Yet, this is completely contradictory, as they willingly disenfranchise 50% of the population, solely upon an ''accident of birth''.


Why are Masons comfortable being a part of this demonstrably bigoted organisation, and why do they think that their ''good causes'' mantra can possibly be taken seriously, considering the prejudice that is outlined in their membership criteria ?

edit on 20-1-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:45 PM
link   
Please watch this entire episode (the last ever episode) of The Tick.

They basically get invited into the league of superheroes, and find out it's a super unethical organization of bigots.

Tons of references and jokes about masonry in this episode....
Maybe that's why it got cancelled even though it was like one of the best shows EVER....

link to youtube



You will love the similarities of your OP and the premise of this show.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:45 PM
link   
I believe I asked this question before when I was curious as to why women are not allowed to become Freemasons. I had to replies. The first was tradition and the second was that Masonry is a Fraternity.

A fraternity (Latin frater : "brother") is a brotherhood, though the term usually connotes a distinct or formal organization and a secret society.

Ask a Freemason
You and many others can also use Ask a Freemason for information on Masonry.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

In fact, I consider Freemasonry to be little more than an old boy's club.



I think that is exactly the problem, (although I know nothing of freemasonry), it would not be a boy's club if women were allowed. There are probably other clubs such as Freewomansory, which allow girls.

However many organizations, such as boy-scouts, in the end allowed girls, however these days I think its a bit funny that in all the places I've been to there have only been scouts and girl-scouts, no boy-scouts, so girls get to have an exclusive club for themselves, but boys don't.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:57 PM
link   
reply to post by Sectumsempra
 


While I appreciate that you aren't personally putting forward this argument as justification for sexual discrimination, I think that by saying it's a ''fraternity'', and ignoring the fundamental reality of an organisation based on those terms, Masons aren't offering a logical validation of their discriminatory policy.

Saying ''it's a fraternity'', is as much of an ethical justification for their bigoted membership rules as a bunch of white people forming a group and declaring it a ''caucasianity'', prohibiting non-whites from joining.

The latter would rightly be admonished and ridiculed, yet the former is a well known organisation, whose members have achieved some of the highest and most prestigious roles in the world.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:59 PM
link   
reply to post by iamaperson
 


In Britain, boys who are scouts are always known as ''boy-scouts''.

It may be different in other countries.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:00 PM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


Here is some more information I found for you. This is the best I can do. I don't own Masonry or do I make the rules. I'm just a young Mason who believes in respect to others!

Masonry is a fraternity, a brotherhood. Just as the essence of a sorority is that it’s for women, the essence of a fraternity is that it’s for men, There are several affiliated Masonic organizations open to women, including the Order of Eastern Star.

Source



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:03 PM
link   
There is the "Order of the Eastern Star" for women.
I don't know if theres any connection with freemasons but my my great grandfather was a 32nd degree mason and my grandmother was with the Eastern Star... so there might be.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sectumsempra
Here is some more information I found for you. This is the best I can do. I don't own Masonry or do I make the rules. I'm just a young Mason who believes in respect to others!

Masonry is a fraternity, a brotherhood. Just as the essence of a sorority is that it’s for women, the essence of a fraternity is that it’s for men, There are several affiliated Masonic organizations open to women, including the Order of Eastern Star.

Source


I believe that Lodges that accept female members, are considered to be clandestine, and are not recognised by mainstream Masonry.

Therefore, the Order of the Eastern Star is not a proper Masonic order.


As I say, saying that something is a ''fraternity'' or ''sorority'', is not justification for discrimination.

While these kinds of societies are harmless enough for children to belong to in school; in the real world people should surely be more mature, and considering that Freemasonry is adults only, surely they should have grown out of this nonsense at their age ?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:26 PM
link   
To put it simply.. are men offended when they aren't allowed into sororities?

This is looking for inequality where there is none, a favorite pastime of feminists.

At the same time there are dozens of examples of various girl "clubs" men are prohibited from joining, at least where I live.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
This is looking for inequality where there is none, a favorite pastime of feminists.


There demonstrably is inequality in Freemasonry.

It is no different to forming a ''whites only'' or ''blacks only'' organisation.


If you'd seen some of my other posts on ATS, then you would know that ''feminist'' is one of the last terms that could be accurately applied to me.




Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
At the same time there are dozens of examples of various girl "clubs" men are prohibited from joining, at least where I live.


This is the ''two wrongs make a right'' logical fallacy.

The fact that some grown women may think that it's acceptable to form organisations based upon gender, in no way, shape or form, justifies a group of men committing the same act of discrimination. And vice versa.

As I say, I see no problem with fraternities or sororities amongst children, but in the real world, and amongst grown-ups, then this kind of bigotry and prejudice shouldn't be tolerated.

Freemasonry - love it or hate it - is an organisation that has a huge foothold in mainstream society, and whose antiquated and bigoted membership criteria should be put on a shelf next to the dinosaurs.


edit on 20-1-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:12 PM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


So what you're saying is that there should be no organisation, club, institution or group solely for either men or women?
Because someone might take offense?

What if I wanna join a womens book club?

I'm sorry, I can't put into words what I'm trying to convey, I just don't understand why people get upset by these types of things, I guess I'm impervious to whine and people clamoring to be a victim.

Look.
Women and men are different, we like different things, we guys might not always want to have girls around, we wanna 'hang with the boys', drink beer, talk smack and talk about boobies.
Girls night? Same thing, they want to talk about make up, boys and have erotic pillow fights... shouldn't we let 'em?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the freaking problem? Are you upset about it?
What's wrong with the Order of the Eastern Star?

Should fraternities and sororities be expunged from history? Be made illegal?

To me this is just political correctness gone mad. I would spend my time worrying about something that really matters instead.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:18 PM
link   
Why don't they let women in?

Easy....
Because men want a place they can go free from their wife's control.

*ducks,covers.*



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
So what you're saying is that there should be no organisation, club, institution or group solely for either men or women?


Absolutely.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
Because someone might take offense?


Nowhere did I imply that ''offense'' had anything to do with my anti-discrimination stance.

It was you brought that concept up, in, what I can only presume was a strawman argument.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
What if I wanna join a womens book club?


Then you should join.

I fail to see why you would would want to join a womens book club, but there should be no hurdles in you doing so, if that's what floats your boat.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
I'm sorry, I can't put into words what I'm trying to convey, I just don't understand why people get upset by these types of things, I guess I'm impervious to whine and people clamoring to be a victim.


I'm not upset.

I don't understand why an influential organisation should be allowed to discriminate against half of the population, and expect to be taken seriously, or seen as anything other than some group of knuckle-dragging bigots who can't see the wood for the trees.

The hypocrisy of preaching about charitable endeavours is probably what grates with most people, while at the same time being a part of a provably bigoted and prejudiced society.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
Look.
Women and men are different, we like different things, we guys might not always want to have girls around, we wanna 'hang with the boys', drink beer, talk smack and talk about boobies.
Girls night? Same thing, they want to talk about make up, boys and have erotic pillow fights... shouldn't we let 'em?


I agree.

That's why sometimes I'll hang out with the lads on a night out, which is a leisurely and recreational activity that we organise and arrange in our own spare time.

We don't have the need to form a society based upon our friendship and acquantaince.

Therein lies the difference from the analogy that you brought forth.


Your attempt to justify organised bigotry and prejudice holds about as much water as someone who is attempting to justify a ''whites only'' or ''blacks only'' organisation.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the freaking problem? Are you upset about it?
What's wrong with the Order of the Eastern Star?


The problem is the discrimination.

I would ask ''what's the freaking problem with letting women become Masons ?''.

They haven't got two-heads, nor will you catch cooties.



The Order of the Eastern Star is a clandestine order, and is not the same as Freemasonry.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
Should fraternities and sororities be expunged from history? Be made illegal?


''Expunging them from history'' is yet another strawman. Nowhere have I even suggested such an absurd notion.

Male or female only organisations should become illegal, just as race-only organisations should be.


Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
To me this is just political correctness gone mad. I would spend my time worrying about something that really matters instead.


''political correctness gone mad'' is usually the phrase used by those who wish to justify a bigoted or prejudiced viewpoint.
edit on Tue Jan 25 2011 by DontTreadOnMe because: Ad Hominem Attacks And You



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 01:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
The Order of the Eastern Star is a clandestine order, and is not the same as Freemasonry.
OES is most certainly NOT a clandestine order. You may be confusing it with co-masonry, which is considered clandestine by mainstream Masonry. OES is an affiliated group recognized by most if not all mainstream Grand Lodges in the United States.

The first amendment gives all US citizens freedom of assembly. The Supreme Court in NAACP v Alabama further made that explicit that citizens have the freedom of association.

It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for the advancement of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the "liberty" assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which embraces freedom of speech.*


In Roberts v United States Jaycees, the court wrote "we have long understood as implicit in the right to engage in activities protected by the First Amendment a corresponding right to associate with others in pursuit of a wide variety of political, social, economic, educational, religious, and cultural ends." "freedom of association ... plainly presupposes a freedom not to associate."

They ruled in Boy Scouts of America v Dale that the BSA had the right not to allow an openly gay scout leader as doing so would be at odds with the Scouts' moral position.

Therefore, if one of the 3 things required to be a Mason is that you're a man, then the Masons have a constitutional right not to admit women.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 07:04 AM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 

1. Yes, you have to be a man to join the Freemasons.

2. One should be a moral man, but Freemasonry doesn't recruit. One must join on his own free will.

3. Yes, you do need to believe in some sort of Higher Power in order to join.

It's not the Lodges that set the standard, but the Grand Lodge (the State level in the US and country level everywhere else) that sets the rules for their respective jurisdiction.

Freemasonry is a "fraternity". Also, there is the clandestine, co-ed Freemasons that is not recognized and allows women and atheists in it.

We have the Order of the Eastern Star, Social Order of the Beauceant, Amaranth, and Daughters of the Nile that are aimed for women and are recognized groups.

reply to post by SnakeShot
 

A woman needs to have a family relation who is a Master Mason to join the Eastern Star (ie brother, father, son, husband, etc).

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 

The Eastern Star is an appendant body of the Freemasons. It is a recognized body that is aimed mostly for women with family ties to Masons, but also allows Masons to join.
edit on 21-1-2011 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 07:09 AM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


you help me get into a sorority, and I will help you get into masonry. I want one of those 'naked pillow fight' kinds like in animal house. Just let me know where to meet you.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 07:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

I consider Freemasonry to be little more than an old boy's club.

edit on 20-1-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)


Crickey! I am an old boy so I supposed that I had better join up!

Actually I support the tradition I would not want to go to any women only events. Freemasons seem to have "Wives days" where spouses and GFs are invited. Also there are International co- masons that allow women members.

I have no problem with the entire business.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 07:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by TheLaughingGod
So what you're saying is that there should be no organisation, club, institution or group solely for either men or women?



Absolutely.


Why?



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 04:34 PM
link   
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


Women aren't recognised as equal by the constitution of the United States of America so it is not really a matter of discrimination, it is their right to exclude women under the constitution due to their servitude under the law. So there you go.

In the UK, which despite many archaic laws, does recognise that women are equal in the law, it would constitute discrimination if they were to refuse a woman solely on grounds of gender (although there would have to be reasonable grounds that the woman was discriminated against by not being a member...which, you know?), unless the organisation could prove good reason for excluding women or was the FA or other sporting association...and even they are feeling the strong arm of popular opinion in that respect...if football and cricket aren't sacred in Britain, what is?

...but a woman would have to want to have to join the Freemasons in the first place...and really I think we have better things to do and they're best off out the way where they can't get up to any real mischief ...





new topics
top topics
 
2
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join