Sunni Islamists slit the throat of a Christian mother in Somalia.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
So here we go again, the peaceful religion of Islam kills another mother for the crime of converting to Christianity.

So here we go again, another ignorant fool that confuses a religious radical for Islam. You're acting as if Islam is some kind of lunatic religion... If your unaware, read about the Inquisitions, and find out how peaceful your religion is (assuming that you're christian..)

Originally posted by BiGGz

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
So here we go again, the peaceful religion of Islam kills another mother for the crime of converting to Christianity.

So here we go again, another ignorant fool that confuses a religious radical for Islam. You're acting as if Islam is some kind of lunatic religion... If your unaware, read about the Inquisitions, and find out how peaceful your religion is (assuming that you're christian..)

It is a lunatic religion, dont you see all the headlines around the world about this same stuff? Problem with your thinking is that yes, christianty was brutal hundreds of years ago but as of today - its attitude is completely different and mostly harmless. Islam on the other hand seems to be in the crusades still.

How many more radicals is it going to take?

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by curious7
most Muslims would also be horrified by this atrocity.

Perhaps...

Yet I do not see reports of the Muslim community crying out in outrage over such offenses. One would think that would go a long way to ease the situation, no?

Those that see atrocity and remain silent... are just as much part of the problem

How much muslim media can you read? Do you speak arabic? Can you read it? Then you don't know if they're crying out. Do you really think that US news outlets would cover that kind of crying out? HELL NO they wouldn't.

Originally posted by Clisen33

Originally posted by BiGGz

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
So here we go again, the peaceful religion of Islam kills another mother for the crime of converting to Christianity.

So here we go again, another ignorant fool that confuses a religious radical for Islam. You're acting as if Islam is some kind of lunatic religion... If your unaware, read about the Inquisitions, and find out how peaceful your religion is (assuming that you're christian..)

It is a lunatic religion, dont you see all the headlines around the world about this same stuff? Problem with your thinking is that yes, christianty was brutal hundreds of years ago but as of today - its attitude is completely different and mostly harmless. Islam on the other hand seems to be in the crusades still.

How many more radicals is it going to take?

edit on 21-1-2011 by Clisen33 because: (no reason given)

I'm sorry but this whole comment is so misinformed on so many levels. Why don't you read the Qu'ran first. Then, live with muslim people. I've worked side by side with Iraqis, Lebanese etc. and I can tell you they were the kindest people I've met. Way more accepting, loving and good natured than many of the "harmless" christians you speak of.

it's a very simple notion:
These "extremists" are not representing the Muslim faith!
Seriously, get a grip, I'd hardly say that thousands of catholic priests molesting and raping young children is harmless. Would you?
And yet, the bible doesn't instruct that. how can this be?

Same thing with Islam and Qu'ran.

reply to post by skylightsintheillions

I would not take a position as an altar boy in the catholic church any more then I would live in a muslim nation. I have no more desire to be sodomized then I do to have my head chopped off.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by Kailassa
The difference is that, as an atheist, you are not a follower of a prophet who stated, "whoever stops being an atheist, kill him." There is no atheist holy book which is legally interpreted in atheist countries as demanding the death of those who stop being atheists.

That's funny, given that I'm frequently told by believers that my atheism makes me a "disciple" of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

Not by me.

This is not, however, relevant to my point.
My point is that Muslims do not bear any responsibility for what other Muslims do. This is the same for members of all religions, creeds, nationalities, ethnicities, genders, sexualities, political alignments, and hairstyles.

To a large extent I agree with you. Knowing what Islam teaches does not make me hold any grudge against individual Muslims unless they act according to more perverse of those teachings. The Muslims I know personally do not.

I have a slight reservation about joint responsibility, because, by being a member of a group, your presence is inevitably lending support to any shared beliefs publicly upheld by that group. For this reason I left Christianity. I could not stay a member of a group which taught all non-members would go to hell when I regarded that as an evil teaching. But I've no wish to push my ethics in that regard onto others.

That is, just as you do not have to hold a press conference to denounce the actions of white American Christians, an Indonesian Muslim does not need to do that with regards to whoever this jackass was in Somalia. His crime is his, and his alone, and your desperate efforts to place the guilt on over a billion people because they are not showing enough remorse for your tastes, just exposes you for a stupid bigot.

Your are being really rude here.
I gave you a polite answer to a post. I did nothing but point out some inarguable facts, and you call me a stupid bigot?

I had thought you would be above manufacturing straw men to attack people with.
The fact that I've pointed out certain teachings does not mean I'm blaming all Muslims for anything, or that I'm suggesting any Muslim should show remorse for the actions of another.
And, by the way, I'm neither American nor Christian. Perhaps you should stop jumping to conclusions.

I do understand where you are coming from when you object to Muslims being told en masse they should be apologising for another Muslim's actions. I find that stupid too, and I've been disgusted by the way many people have tried to spread the blame for 9/11 over all Muslims by saying, (incorrectly) that none have apologised for it.

It's a lie that belief that apostasy merits death is confined to a few Muslim radicals. Capital punishment for sane adult males who commit apostasy and refuse to repent is enshrined in the sharia law practiced in many Muslim countries.

Well, I know Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure that Somalia can be said to have "law" at this point in history, but let's add them to the list too. Got any others? Qatar? the United Arab Emirates? Iraq? Albania? Malaysia?

There's a list here.

Mohammad stated: “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” — Bukhari 9.84.57 ‘baddala deenahu, faqtuhulu’

And? Here's something to chew on; Just 'cause it's found in a religious book doesn't mean that the members of that religion all buy into it. A good number of Christians don't believe, for instance, that not being Christian condemns you to an eternity of the worst tortures imaginable, even though that's a core principle of Christian theology.

Of course not all Muslims "buy it". But it is supported by many Muslim authorities and enshrined in law in some Muslim countries.
I'm not here to knock Islam in particular. I'm against any religion which is enshrined in bureaucracy, and strongly against any theocracy. I'm just pointing out law made on the basis of these words makes leaving Islam a very dangerous decision in some countries.

Where Islam is the state religion, apostasy is also regarded as treason, punishable by the death penalty.

This is the case anywhere that laws (or what passes for laws) are based on religion. And again, this does not give a Canadian Muslim any burden to speak up to denounce his co-religionists in some East African crap hole.

Where have I said any Muslims should be denouncing any others?
The ones I know do denounce such things, but generally only amongst themselves, as the wars on Islamic countries make them feel a need to protect their faith from westerners by outwardly showing solidarity, and I respect that.



Perhaps, Walking Fox, it would help if I explain where I'm coming from. For many years now my home has functioned as a halfway house for Muslim women needing a safe, secret place to hide. I don't judge these women for being Muslim, they're just people. But I see the effect their religion has had on their lives, and their fear of their fathers or husbands killing them, and that fear is real, even in Australia, if they choose to leave their religion (or their husbands).

And, by the way, if they do it's not at my urging. I don't care what beliefs a person has or doesn't have, provided their beliefs are not making them do obviously dreadful things.

Originally posted by Clisen33
It is a lunatic religion, dont you see all the headlines around the world about this same stuff? Problem with your thinking is that yes, christianty was brutal hundreds of years ago but as of today - its attitude is completely different and mostly harmless. Islam on the other hand seems to be in the crusades still.

How many more radicals is it going to take?

edit on 21-1-2011 by Clisen33 because: (no reason given)

Keep thinking that radicalism is only present in Islam.

You're forgetting the:

Brand Davidians
Ku Klux Klan
Black Panthers
Irish Republican Army
Iron Guard
Neo-Nazism
and MANY MANY more non-Islamic radical groups

Dude, get real. This whole "Islam = Terrorism" is a bunch of BULLS*%&, a picture painted by the newspapers.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Not by me.

Which again, does not at all invalidate the point i'm making.

To a large extent I agree with you. Knowing what Islam teaches does not make me hold any grudge against individual Muslims unless they act according to more perverse of those teachings. The Muslims I know personally do not.

Which does actually put you above many posters here.

I have a slight reservation about joint responsibility, because, by being a member of a group, your presence is inevitably lending support to any shared beliefs publicly upheld by that group. For this reason I left Christianity. I could not stay a member of a group which taught all non-members would go to hell when I regarded that as an evil teaching. But I've no wish to push my ethics in that regard onto others.

And we're speaking of those who do wish to push those ethics.

Your are being really rude here.
I gave you a polite answer to a post. I did nothing but point out some inarguable facts, and you call me a stupid bigot?

I had thought you would be above manufacturing straw men to attack people with.
The fact that I've pointed out certain teachings does not mean I'm blaming all Muslims for anything, or that I'm suggesting any Muslim should show remorse for the actions of another.
And, by the way, I'm neither American nor Christian. Perhaps you should stop jumping to conclusions.

You're right. I seem to have misunderstood your approach. Regardless, the general point remains valid. If a person expects every Muslim on earth to be their brothers' keeper, and paint them all as accomplices in a crime committed if they don't, then that person is, not to mince words, a stupid bigot.

I do understand where you are coming from when you object to Muslims being told en masse they should be apologising for another Muslim's actions. I find that stupid too, and I've been disgusted by the way many people have tried to spread the blame for 9/11 over all Muslims by saying, (incorrectly) that none have apologised for it.

As I said, I misunderstood your approach.

There's a list here.

I was curious how many have capital punishment for apostasy. So far as I can tell, the list is restricted to Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan (and so long as the US effectively rules Afghanistan, that one's iffy). I would hardly call other nations under Sharia law beacons of religious freedom, but most don't appear to impose the death penalty either for converting or proselytizing.

Of course not all Muslims "buy it". But it is supported by many Muslim authorities and enshrined in law in some Muslim countries.

And? Asinine legal codes, spurious death penalties, and authoritarian sociopathy are hardly restricted to Islam.

I'm not here to knock Islam in particular. I'm against any religion which is enshrined in bureaucracy, and strongly against any theocracy. I'm just pointing out law made on the basis of these words makes leaving Islam a very dangerous decision in some countries.

That it does, especially when one considers that even in the many countries without the death penalty for this "crime," the arm of their governments usually extends only so far, leaving mob rule for the rest. And of course, as my own nation's history shows, mob rule is dangerous regardless of the religion or legal system.

Where have I said any Muslims should be denouncing any others?
The ones I know do denounce such things, but generally only amongst themselves, as the wars on Islamic countries make them feel a need to protect their faith from westerners by outwardly showing solidarity, and I respect that.

Perhaps, Walking Fox, it would help if I explain where I'm coming from. For many years now my home has functioned as a halfway house for Muslim women needing a safe, secret place to hide. I don't judge these women for being Muslim, they're just people. But I see the effect their religion has had on their lives, and their fear of their fathers or husbands killing them, and that fear is real, even in Australia, if they choose to leave their religion (or their husbands).

And, by the way, if they do it's not at my urging. I don't care what beliefs a person has or doesn't have, provided their beliefs are not making them do obviously dreadful things.

Understood. I apologize for my rudeness; these topics are usually a fount of white-vs.-black arguing and poor logic, so I tend to come in like a muay thai fighter on PCP

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Thanks for your reply.
As I thought, our disagreements are pretty superficial, we both see the problems any entrenched beliefs can cause, but want individuals treated with due respect.

I'd figured there was no need to remove you from my buddies list.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


OK, "islamist" is defined on the internet. I made a mistake on that definition. But how relevant is that to this topic? Your post is very much aimed at seeming to defame my character rather than speak from anything but obvious hatred.



First, I'm not apologizing FOR the murderers, that's a bull**** tactic to try and muddy up and slander this argument. Don't assign me the position here as an arguer for extremist muslims.

For I am nothing of the sort.
What I am, is someone who knows first-hand muslim people, very well, in a completely muslim community where I worked, and I discussed very much their religion with them, their beliefs (they, notably, were shiites, not sunnis) and what their interpretation of the quran is.

And so I can say, with absolute certainty, Islam is as any other religion, up to the interpretation of whomever claims to be a follower. Christianity and Judaism have just as much (if not far more) blood on their hands throughout our history.

Charles Manson claimed the Beatles song Helter Skelter communicated the idea for his murders which he convinced others to commit. Were the Beatles to blame though? Of course not. And ask a Christian if they think the crusades are what jesus would do, they'll surely answer hell no.

The mega religions all over contain writings of death, murder, etc. Don't be surprised to see it in the quran too.

Perhaps it's because I personally worked with and spent much time at work with muslims who were not extremists and who abhor these acts. They were, like I've said before, the most peaceful and generous people I've known.

When you let hatred and rage enter and envelope and determine your thoughts and actions:
THEY'VE ALREADY WON
You realize that it is the aim of these people to create a disgusting horrific spectacle to instill fear in those who hear and see it? To anger them and to attempt to create the perception of a polarized religious climate. Realize, these extremists are a sliver of a fraction of the total amount of muslims in the world.
Is catholicism not atrocious in acts it's made in the past?
The vatican funded Hitler! And the Croatian Holocaust! And who knows what else.
Croation Holocaust Funded by Catholics

Trying to attach a label to a psychopathic murderer is a weak tactic which shows some signs of ignorance. It's easy to hate an entire worldwide religion, even when all but the tiniest fraction are peaceful and don't at all support these acts.

Don't give in to the tactics that are intended to enrage you, to garner hate and breed violent thoughts.
Progress with humanity is not made through hate or violence.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


And their Fake Islamic evol souls will be linked with evol Fake Christian souls in eternia HOW NICE RIP TO THE LOST LADY FROM THESE FAKE LIGHTS SHALL TIME SHOW THEM THE BRIGHTER WAY as quakes devour...

There is no way a humble soul couldnt rationalize this was wrong to do, but submitting their free wills they killed her to make a point (to follow their fake leaders as others have). MAY their screams not be heard for eternia and may there pains last for eternia evol

Originally posted by seedofchucky
here we go again more islamaphobia ignorant propaganda . These people who commit these acts are not muslim they only use the religion to rationalize there actions. Nothing more then wolfs in sheeps clothing . Kinda like politicians who pretend to be there for public intrest. I do not subscribe to any religions but i have to call bs when ignorance is involved


"The koran clearly supports these murders and mohammad called for the killing of all apostates"

show me this in the quran

because last time i checked

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient - quran

edit on 20-1-2011 by seedofchucky because: (no reason given)

Indeed...
If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't talk at all.
Just because a handfull of asses missuse the religion doesn't meen that Islam is all about hate and violence.
That's just like saying all Southern Babtist are insane racist nutjobs who like to beat the crap out of gays and people of colour.
Don't be so fudging stupid people....